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I've been trying to wrap my head around why this feels so wrong. If the project had been run like this from the beginning, in an opinionated way that prioritize

by dovin 2y ago

I've been trying to wrap my head around why this feels so wrong. If the project had been run like this from the beginning, in an opinionated way that prioritizes what the few creators of the project think are important, then that's one thing. But it seems like Wordpress has generally been the stable, boring, slow-moving project that isn't run like a personal fiefdom, and Mullenweg is trying to force it from the one model to the other. I haven't used Wordpress in years, and this drama makes me never want to use it again.

slg 2y ago
It reminds me of Reddit cracking down on 3rd party apps or Twitter changing that policy and a whole lot more once Musk took over. The problem isn't necessarily the actions or policies in a vacuum. There are legitimate benefits to these approaches. The problem is it feels like these communities were built up around certain practices and there was no reason to expect those practices to change. So when there is a big change that only happens after a platform has already reached near monopoly status, it feels like a bait and switch to users because many people would have never signed up for a platform with those policies in the first place.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  I guess the moral of the story is that everything must be assumed to be bait-and-switch in the presence of capital interests.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    Why can’t other interests, such as labour interests, also bait-and-switch?
    - immibis 2y ago
      They CAN, but capital interests ARE. Speculation: labour interests care about making enough money to get by, while capital interests care about making maximum money and are therefore insatiable.
      - Gud 2y ago
        What makes you think most labour are interested in “getting by”? In my experience, they aren’t.
        immibis 2y ago
        How often do you ask your boss for a raise or go job hunting? 1. When your money's running low or your job feels shitty, or 2. Constantly whenever you think you can get a raise or a better job
        Gud 2y ago
        I don’t see how that is relevant? Switching job is a fairly painful process. Doesn’t mean I’m not in it for the money.
    - crabmusket 2y ago
      Here's my conjecture: doing so is not in the interests of labour. So to the extent that labour has power, it would tend to act differently.
slimsag 2y ago
In 2021 Automattic, the company that effectively owns Wordpress, has a valuation of $7.5 billion in 2021, and revenue of $750M in 2024. It's big money.
- aldanor 2y ago
  What's the net though?
bilekas 2y ago
> Mullenweg is trying to force it from the one model to the other There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version for example is how I think it should have been done in the first place. I've said it before here but this has all the markings of being extremely petty and Mullenweg not happy with their own licensing model.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ValentineC 2y ago
  > There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version for example is how I think it should have been done in the first place. WordPress is GPL because it is a fork of b2/cafelog: https://wordpress.org/book/2015/11/the-blogging-software-dilemma/ https://wordpress.org/book/2015/11/the-blogging-software-dil...
- bad_user 2y ago
  > There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version All the projects doing that will soon discover that they were popular mostly because of the Open-Source licensing. Once that changes, the popularity, and goodwill go down, for the simple reason that trust gets breached and forks happen. Open-Source is essentially about the freedom to fork, and that's precisely what happens when governance fails. Some of them will backtrack on that decision, but it will be too late; like ElasticSearch recently changing again to AGPL, except now the question is why would people choose it over the more trustworthy, open and secure OpenSearch. There's nothing wrong with building proprietary software, but there is something wrong with pulling a bait-and-switch, betraying your community that invested in your product because of its Open-Source nature. Matt surely knows that, and also, changing the license of WordPress is probably not possible due to them not having the full copyright. WordPress is not really theirs, despite all their contributions. Which is why this will not end well for Automattic.
- bigiain 2y ago
  > changing the license in a next version Can Matt do that though? I don't _think_ WordPress has a copyright assignment agreement for contributors? So neither Matt nor Automattic nor wordpress.org nor The WordPress Foundation can choose to re-license future versions of the GPL2 or newer codebase without agreement from _all_ the contributors who retain the copyright in their part of the code.
CodeWriter23 2y ago
> Wordpress has generally been the stable, boring, slow-moving project 80% annual codebase churn (according to Theo) says otherwise
- stefanfisk 2y ago
  Since they started their crazy Gutenberg project things have certainly not been slow moving and stable…
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    It really messed a lot of things up, editing my blog used to be seamless and after it took multiple seconds to even load the editor.
bad_user 2y ago
Initially, I was taking the side of WP.org and Automattic; however, I changed my mind completely once they took over the “Advanced Custom Fields” plugin, and replaced it with another plugin that broke people's websites. So Matt weaponized the WP package repository, and stole the users of a well-maintained package, making WP site admins work over the weekend to fix the breakage. This isn't opinionated, this is theft. If the project had been run like this since the beginning, it wouldn't be where it is today. Automattic is a rich company partially due to the community around WordPress, and the trust that community has had in the governance of the project.
- usaphp 2y ago
  > replaced it with another plugin that broke people's websites What makes you think it broke someone’s website? AFAIK they just patched the security issue that wp engine team couldn’t patch because they were locked out from pushing to repo?
  - bad_user 2y ago
    Firstly, the security patch was already published by the ACF team, and that wasn't the code that was pushed. This was a package takeover, slug, reviews, users, everything: https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/acf-plugin-no-longer-available-on-wordpress-org/ https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/acf-plugin-no-long... People woke up to their website being updated to “Secure Custom Fields”, an alternative (or a fork) that's not fully compatible. Here's one such report from HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830709
  - danieljacksonno 2y ago
    They turned off all pro features
    - skhr0680 2y ago
      What Wordpress did is insane, but let’s not spread misinformation. There were no pro features in the free plugin to turn off, they removed advertising for the pro version.
wrs 2y ago
Wordpress has always been a personal fiefdom. This is quite reminiscent of the Great GPL Themes Kerfuffle of 2009 [0], actually. Stakes are a lot higher now, of course. [0] https://thenextweb.com/news/wordpress-and-thesis-go-to-battle-mullenweg-may-sue https://thenextweb.com/news/wordpress-and-thesis-go-to-battl...
fbnlsr 2y ago
I'm probably wrong here, but my tinfoil hat take is that Matt has seen how well Taylor Otwell is doing with Laravel and he wants a piece of that cake. Granted they're doing pretty good with wordpress.com hosting, but they'd have so much more money if they licenced plugins and features the way Laravel does.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  That might be part of it, though I think the more pressing boat anchor around Automattic's neck is the money pit that Tumblr is, for what seems like very little return.

by dovin 2y ago

slg 2y ago

It reminds me of Reddit cracking down on 3rd party apps or Twitter changing that policy and a whole lot more once Musk took over. The problem isn't necessarily the actions or policies in a vacuum. There are legitimate benefits to these approaches. The problem is it feels like these communities were built up around certain practices and there was no reason to expect those practices to change. So when there is a big change that only happens after a platform has already reached near monopoly status, it feels like a bait and switch to users because many people would have never signed up for a platform with those policies in the first place.

Sharlin 2y ago
I guess the moral of the story is that everything must be assumed to be bait-and-switch in the presence of capital interests.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  Why can’t other interests, such as labour interests, also bait-and-switch?
  - immibis 2y ago
    They CAN, but capital interests ARE. Speculation: labour interests care about making enough money to get by, while capital interests care about making maximum money and are therefore insatiable.
    - Gud 2y ago
      What makes you think most labour are interested in “getting by”? In my experience, they aren’t.
      - immibis 2y ago
        How often do you ask your boss for a raise or go job hunting? 1. When your money's running low or your job feels shitty, or 2. Constantly whenever you think you can get a raise or a better job
        Gud 2y ago
        I don’t see how that is relevant? Switching job is a fairly painful process. Doesn’t mean I’m not in it for the money.
  - crabmusket 2y ago
    Here's my conjecture: doing so is not in the interests of labour. So to the extent that labour has power, it would tend to act differently.

slimsag 2y ago

In 2021 Automattic, the company that effectively owns Wordpress, has a valuation of $7.5 billion in 2021, and revenue of $750M in 2024. It's big money.

aldanor 2y ago
What's the net though?

bilekas 2y ago

> Mullenweg is trying to force it from the one model to the other There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version for example is how I think it should have been done in the first place. I've said it before here but this has all the markings of being extremely petty and Mullenweg not happy with their own licensing model.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ValentineC 2y ago
> There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version for example is how I think it should have been done in the first place. WordPress is GPL because it is a fork of b2/cafelog: https://wordpress.org/book/2015/11/the-blogging-software-dilemma/ https://wordpress.org/book/2015/11/the-blogging-software-dil...
bad_user 2y ago
> There are proper ways to do that, changing the license in a next version All the projects doing that will soon discover that they were popular mostly because of the Open-Source licensing. Once that changes, the popularity, and goodwill go down, for the simple reason that trust gets breached and forks happen. Open-Source is essentially about the freedom to fork, and that's precisely what happens when governance fails. Some of them will backtrack on that decision, but it will be too late; like ElasticSearch recently changing again to AGPL, except now the question is why would people choose it over the more trustworthy, open and secure OpenSearch. There's nothing wrong with building proprietary software, but there is something wrong with pulling a bait-and-switch, betraying your community that invested in your product because of its Open-Source nature. Matt surely knows that, and also, changing the license of WordPress is probably not possible due to them not having the full copyright. WordPress is not really theirs, despite all their contributions. Which is why this will not end well for Automattic.
bigiain 2y ago
> changing the license in a next version Can Matt do that though? I don't _think_ WordPress has a copyright assignment agreement for contributors? So neither Matt nor Automattic nor wordpress.org nor The WordPress Foundation can choose to re-license future versions of the GPL2 or newer codebase without agreement from _all_ the contributors who retain the copyright in their part of the code.

CodeWriter23 2y ago

> Wordpress has generally been the stable, boring, slow-moving project 80% annual codebase churn (according to Theo) says otherwise

stefanfisk 2y ago
Since they started their crazy Gutenberg project things have certainly not been slow moving and stable…
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  It really messed a lot of things up, editing my blog used to be seamless and after it took multiple seconds to even load the editor.

bad_user 2y ago

Initially, I was taking the side of WP.org and Automattic; however, I changed my mind completely once they took over the “Advanced Custom Fields” plugin, and replaced it with another plugin that broke people's websites. So Matt weaponized the WP package repository, and stole the users of a well-maintained package, making WP site admins work over the weekend to fix the breakage. This isn't opinionated, this is theft. If the project had been run like this since the beginning, it wouldn't be where it is today. Automattic is a rich company partially due to the community around WordPress, and the trust that community has had in the governance of the project.

usaphp 2y ago
> replaced it with another plugin that broke people's websites What makes you think it broke someone’s website? AFAIK they just patched the security issue that wp engine team couldn’t patch because they were locked out from pushing to repo?
- bad_user 2y ago
  Firstly, the security patch was already published by the ACF team, and that wasn't the code that was pushed. This was a package takeover, slug, reviews, users, everything: https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/acf-plugin-no-longer-available-on-wordpress-org/ https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/blog/acf-plugin-no-long... People woke up to their website being updated to “Secure Custom Fields”, an alternative (or a fork) that's not fully compatible. Here's one such report from HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830709
- danieljacksonno 2y ago
  They turned off all pro features
  - skhr0680 2y ago
    What Wordpress did is insane, but let’s not spread misinformation. There were no pro features in the free plugin to turn off, they removed advertising for the pro version.

wrs 2y ago

Wordpress has always been a personal fiefdom. This is quite reminiscent of the Great GPL Themes Kerfuffle of 2009 [0], actually. Stakes are a lot higher now, of course. [0] https://thenextweb.com/news/wordpress-and-thesis-go-to-battle-mullenweg-may-sue https://thenextweb.com/news/wordpress-and-thesis-go-to-battl...

fbnlsr 2y ago

I'm probably wrong here, but my tinfoil hat take is that Matt has seen how well Taylor Otwell is doing with Laravel and he wants a piece of that cake. Granted they're doing pretty good with wordpress.com hosting, but they'd have so much more money if they licenced plugins and features the way Laravel does.

FireBeyond 2y ago
That might be part of it, though I think the more pressing boat anchor around Automattic's neck is the money pit that Tumblr is, for what seems like very little return.