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It surprises me to read about "fixed metal frame" awnings. You don't _have_ to make that trade off. In the Netherlands a lot of houses have electrically retrac
by pistoleer 2y ago
It surprises me to read about "fixed metal frame" awnings. You don't _have_ to make that trade off.
In the Netherlands a lot of houses have electrically retractable awnings (or even just mechanically windable by hand), especially above the giant windows facing the back yard.
During winter and bad weather, we retract the awning. When it's too sunny, we deploy it.
typical row house layout with big windows on both sides: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorzonwoning https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorzonwoning
retractable awning: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonnescherm https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonnescherm
- dumbo-octopus 2y agoWe have them in america too. But every moving part comes with inflated costs for both acquisition and ongoing maintenance.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoWhile this is true, awnings aren't that expensive, and while I don't have the knowledge to do the maths, they will earn themselves back over time with how much heat they keep out and how much you'll need to run the AC.
- pistoleer 2y agoIn the Netherlands it costs around a grand, as for maintenance... Haven't needed to do any in more than 15 years. The actual screen retracts into a weather proof metal casing, so there's not that much that goes wrong, whereas fixed awnings are exposed to the full weather gamut 24/7. Let me put it this way: it's cheap enough that a lot of social housing and other cheap forms of housing inhabited by the "lower class" feature them.
- dumbo-octopus 2y agoA government paying for a thing does not in any way imply that the thing is a good use of money. How many decades of fabric replacements could you get from the savings of bolting on a simple metal frame as compared to an elaborate electromechanically actuated arm mechanism?
- Etheryte 2y agoThis is such a silly argument. A movable awning isn't some complex apparatus, it's literally a hinge and two sticks. You're trying to frame this as some kind of an expensive problem when it really isn't.
- dumbo-octopus 2y agoYou forgot the actuator.
- skrebbel 2y agoIt's a stick with a handle that you turn
- dumbo-octopus 2y agoConnected to a gear that needs oil, a chain that needs oil and can rust, or a rope that withers. Being overly dismissive of failure modes isn’t a good look. I don’t claim that fixed awnings are God’s gift to humanity, just that they don’t have some of the drawbacks associated with moving parts. The amount of emotional reaction I’ve received to that completely factual statement is frankly ridiculous.
- Etheryte 2y agoYou're overlooking the fact that these are incredibly common in the Netherlands, yet the massive problems you describe are nowhere to be found. Most people get away with giving them some love maybe every few years when they get creaky, if even that. Your argument is about as reasonable as saying we shouldn't have door hinges or door locks because moving parts have drawbacks. It's silly, these systems are so simple that they require next to no upkeep for years at a time.
- dumbo-octopus 2y agoIndeed we shouldn’t have hinges or locks because moving parts have drawbacks, in contexts where that matters. For instance portals that don’t need a door at all, or walls that don’t need to open. Would you argue that every open passageway should have a door blocking it, and every wall should have hinges installed? No, that’s ridiculous. It’s equally ridiculous to get this angry about the simple fact that fixed awnings have upsides, and depending on the context they might be a better choice than retractable ones.
- strken 2y agoIn Australia you can get a 3x2m awning from Bunnings for $300[0] and install it yourself in a couple of hours. I'd be surprised if Lowe's in the US didn't have something for the same price, although they've apparently decided to geoblock Australians from accessing most of their website. [0] https://www.bunnings.com.au/windoware-3-x-2m-charcoal-easy-fit-awning_p1262181 https://www.bunnings.com.au/windoware-3-x-2m-charcoal-easy-f...
- nick3443 2y agoThe "name brand" sunsetter awning starts at $2500. The china brands with no reviews do go down to $4-500 though. The labor to have someone install one of those (if you're not diy) and find out it's crap would cost more.
- thaumasiotes 2y agoLowe's advertises awnings, but they're more expensive than that. I see a listing for "144 inch wide x 120 inch projection x 10 inch height metal solid motorized retractable patio awning" for $426. (I tried switching stores from San Francisco, CA to Albuquerque, NM in case of location-sensitive pricing, but prices didn't change.) One meter is about 39 inches, so this appears to be a bit under double the area (including 50% more projection) for a bit over double the price. But the vast majority of their listings are much smaller without being cheaper. Even the cheaper one is one square meter for US$100.
- apexalpha 2y agoThey save more in energy than they cost, though.
- greener_grass 2y agoThe Netherlands seems like the most sensible country on earth. How did they manage it?
- JonChesterfield 2y agoLow population and high income from natural resources.
- Etheryte 2y agoThe Netherlands has a higher population density than the US (520 people per square km vs 37) and lower GDP per capita ($62k vs $82k), so I'm not sure if that framing is exactly useful. In absolute numbers, yes, there's fewer people, but they're packed into a very small area so you have to be smart about how you do that.
- masklinn 2y agoAlso natural resources in the Netherlands? At least 20% of the country is reclaimed land, and more than half is under high tide water levels. I think GP confuses the Netherlands and Norway.
- ninalanyon 2y agoWhen it comes to resources Norway and the Netherlands are radically different. But it's in how the resources were used not in whether they existed. The Dutch had a lot of North Sea gas but they, like the UK, squandered the income from it. Norway was lucky to avoid what has become known as the Dutch disease partly because Norway was later to the party.
- apexalpha 2y agoSquandered is a bit much be built the Delta works, among others things. There's more than one way to invest money. Though I agree they could've put at least some of it in the stock market like Norway.
- FooBarWidget 2y ago"Many"? It seems to me like there are many without. Homeowners Associations everywhere keep blocking them as well because they ruin the street image, so they say. Oh and they block AC too because it's too noisy and the outside unit is too ugly. And so many homes are stuck with scorching summers.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago> Oh and they block AC too because it's too noisy and the outside unit is too ugly. I've never seen an HOA that bad; that's horrific. I've seen ones that ban window AC units, but never any that had anything to say about central HVAC. That's the kind of thing that ought to get legislatively challenged, perhaps as an accessibility issue.
- ninalanyon 2y agoIn Norway we have them with sensors for wind speed and sun so that they are deployed automatically to shade the window and retracted if the wind rises too high.
- bafe 2y agoIn Switzerland most offices and the majority of houses have exterior metal slat blinds or rolling shutters. Almost all are operated electrically and quite a few are controlled by inputs from wind and sunlight sensors. Since you can adjust the angle of the slats you can significantly cut down solar gains and glare while still providing ventilation and natural light
- otikik 2y agoWould you be surprised to learn that in Spain almost all windows have built-in blinds? https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persiana https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persiana
- ricardobeat 2y agoWell, they have sun and don’t need the insulation provided by double-pane glass. Dutch (northern european?) windows also open to the inside, making blinds impractical unless they’re built into the window frame. On top of that, historically blinds are uncommon for cultural reasons, they impair looks and the amount of light coming through, even when fully open. It’s already dark enough in here most of the time :)
- oersted 2y agoI don't think you have the right mental image of Spanish blinds (persianas). They are indeed built into the window frame and are fully retractable. The windows also open to the inside. They have a similar function as awnings, because you can have them part of the way down, so they block the sun at whatever altitude it is, while allowing you to keep the window open for airflow or light. They are also less obstructive on the facade than awnings. Random example: https://as.com/actualidad/sociedad/por-que-hay-tantas-persianas-en-espana-y-por-que-apenas-se-utilizan-en-el-resto-de-europa-n/ https://as.com/actualidad/sociedad/por-que-hay-tantas-persia... I've lived both in Spain and the Netherlands. In Spain you have the wooden blinds that are vertically retractable, they can fully black-out and insulate the room, but you also always have very light translucent curtains next to them, that let light in but can block visibility for privacy. In the Netherlands you usually only have very thick curtains that are not translucent, they fulfil both purposes in one, light/temperature insulation and privacy, but they are an inferior solution for both. My parents and grandparents from Spain are surprised and often note how many windows in the Netherlands are wide open, particularly on ground floors, you can see everything in the house from the street. In Spain we would simply use the translucent curtains that block very little light but provide privacy. And in the north of Spain it's just as grey as in the Netherlands, the light level is similar most of the year. We also have fewer ground-floor households, they are generally unpopular, there's often shops there at street-level, and apartments are far more common than detached houses.
- zukzuk 2y agoA house I lived in during the pandemic had a pergola covered in wisteria vines over the south facing windows. In the summer the vines would leaf out and block most of the hot sun, and in the winter the leaves fell away and let in a ton of light. Worked great, looked great, and smelled great for the two weeks of bloom in may.
- reneherse 2y agoThis is a great technique that I believe has been used for ages and was re-popularized in recent decades by advocates of ecological and sustainable architecture. I've heard of grape vines being used in place of wisteria, which might be better in places where the latter is considered an invasive species. There may be other "friendly creepers" with similar deciduous qualities as well.
- hedora 2y agoWe’d put something like that near the house if not for the fire risk. I feel like there should be a solution to that problem though.
- schiffern 2y agoYou can select vine species that are fire-resistant (including grape and wisteria). Paradoxically, this can make a building more fire-resistant than just having a bare wall. Plants contain water, after all. https://www.blm.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/Firewise%20Landscaping%20with%20Vines%20&%20Groundcovers.pdf https://www.blm.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/Fire...
- ahoef 2y agoMy house has three carefully pruned lime trees (not the fruit). Works perfectly for privacy and the exact dynamic you note here.
- intrepidhero 2y agoAt my first house I built garden beads in the back yard about 4 feet from the house, each with an 8 foot tall trellis for peas and beans. Seeing that lovely green wall outside the window in the summer was the absolute nicest window treatment I've ever had.
- 082349872349872 2y agoin the row house article's picture I see the house, with the tree, but where's the beestje?