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I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a rou

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

dave333 2y ago
That is a good way to have an accident - I know since I've done it. While "looking one way" on a USA counterclockwise roundabout you are looking left to see traffic already on the roundabout and if clear you go and run smack into the back of the vehicle ahead of you who for some reason stalled or hesitated or just judged the traffic differently. However it will be a low speed accident.
- sierra1011 2y ago
  As a general rule, one should be looking in the direction in which the vehicle is traveling. It's easily done though, if rushing, or if the vehicle in front pulls away slightly but stops again.
bfdm 2y ago
Yep. Canada suburbs here. We're starting to see roundabouts used more often for what would be higher traffic four-ways or inconvenient lights. They're great, both as a driver and as a cyclist. Lower conflict risk, simple rules to proceed. IMO all smaller 4 way stops should become what I've described as trash can roundabouts. Small island to circle around. So much better than stop signs.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  In Seattle, we have trash can roundabout (really just round traffic calming islands, we don’t consider them roundabouts) and stop signs at the same intersections.
- woleium 2y ago
  In the UK they are called mini roundabouts, and are sometimes just painted on: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-roundabout.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-roundabout.jp...
  - maltalex 2y ago
    Painted roundabouts will be invisible when it snows.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      People are generally driving significantly slower in snow though, so the need for a roundabout is lessened. And you can also install signage indicating a roundabout is there.
      - ygra 2y ago
        A roundabout requires signage in any case. At least in all countries I've seen one so far. Otherwise it's not a roundabout and may even have very different rules.
    - gerdesj 2y ago
      Do I really have to point out that you don't need road markings to drive safely when it snows?
    - DrBazza 2y ago
      The signs preceding a UK mini roundabout would not be. And it rarely snows in the UK these days. And I would hope you would be driving extremely cautiously if there were snow on the ground (in the UK) as it's such a rare event.
    - esskay 2y ago
      Signage exists. Plus the vast majority of times painted ones are used in areas where almost everyone on the road knows how it works, and within minutes of it snowing a very clear outline of the path cars have taken would make it abundantly clear what the process is. Roundabouts are engrained into UK road culture, you'd seldom find a driver in the UK that cant figure out how one works, even if they may not have great lane discipline on the larger ones.
MostlyStable 2y ago
Wait until you find one of the distressingly common places where they build a roundabout and put stop signs on some or all of the entrances.
- rented_mule 2y ago
  Yep, every time I drive through this one, I curse the idea of 4-way-stop-roundabouts: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7609857,-121.1244208,3a,75y,346.1h,93.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdCNzl4S-xi_XPR8aoxkgHw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7609857,-121.1244208,3a,75y,... Too many people remain at the stop sign until the roundabout completely clears, so it becomes an excruciatingly slow 4-way stop. And there's not much traffic there. A few miles from that one, there's a high traffic roundabout that works very well. The heavily used right turn lanes are divided and don't enter the roundabout. There are very clear markings on the ground. And there are yield signs at the entrances, so people know what to do. Traffic flows great through it, with the heaviest direction of travel naturally getting more throughput. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7004641,-120.976448,3a,75y,193.16h,91.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sILaRSpq1rt1z1F-T7BQnwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7004641,-120.976448,3a,75y,1...
  - dsego 2y ago
    Wow, what's the point of a stop sign at a roundabout?
- sokoloff 2y ago
  Or two near me have traffic lights very near (1/4 block or so) from the exit, meaning that traffic will inevitably back up into the roundabout, locking it up.
- userbinator 2y ago
  That's not a roundabout, that's a 4-way-stop with an island.
  - MostlyStable 2y ago
bigstrat2003 2y ago
> Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. Your state is doing it wrong then. Almost every four way stop I've ever seen in the US has a little sign beneath the big octagon which says "4-way". Anyways, I have nothing against roundabouts. But I do have issue with some states (looking at you, Wisconsin) which are obsessed with tearing out perfectly good stop signs (as in, it's a low volume intersection or it's only a two way stop with a highway going through) and replacing them with roundabouts. It's just a waste of taxpayer money.
- buildsjets 2y ago
  My elderly father will go 20 mins out of his way to avoid this series of intersections in Oshkosh: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5SiJhyQREhNSN8PJ9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/5SiJhyQREhNSN8PJ9
  - esskay 2y ago
    I do love how on streetview they've caught what looks to be an accident on it: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0108294,-88.5835298,3a,75y,50.98h,84.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL2y84KBAt8-lUlKEZ15Y_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0108294,-88.5835298,3a,75y,5... That being said that looks like a pretty decent and standard setup for a set of roundabouts, certainly wouldn't look out of place in the UK and would be vastly superior to a whole host of stop signs and red lights. It probably could've been simplified slightly by turning the two middle ones into one long oval roundabout, those are pretty common on motorway junctions in the UK.
    - JdeBP 2y ago
      I was going to make the same point. With that slight modification it's an everyday thing for many U.K. drivers and fairly easy to navigate when one is used to such. The Beaconsfield junction on the M40 is a randomly selected example of this very setup in the U.K.: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.59432/-0.62779 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.59432/-0.62779 Or the junction of the A5 and the A442 in Telford: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.67883/-2.43871 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.67883/-2.43871
bnralt 2y ago
Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reason. I see people complain about roundabouts with traffics lights and how it negates some of the reasons for the roundabout. The thing is, these aren’t just put in for fun, usually they’re in areas with extremely heavy traffic where merging can get extremely difficult which leads to long backups (or in cities, accidents that can shut down traffic). Roundabouts can be great when used well, but they’re hardly the silver bullet that online discourse often portrays them as.
- lmm 2y ago
  They absolutely are. Even if they don't prevent all collisions, they turn T-bones into glancing hits and so save a lot of lives. The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.
  - WillPostForFood 2y ago
    No easy answers, no solutions only trade-offs. Perhaps better for safety, but they makes crossing as a pedestrian longer and harder. And while intersections designed for roundabouts can be pretty smooth, retrofitting undersized roundabouts into intersections designed a 4-way makes for ugly and difficult to navigate messes. I like them, but it is a mistake to blindly install them anywhere possible.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      What's wrong with mini-roundabouts? We've got lots of them here in the UK, mainly in residential areas and I don't see the issue with replacing a 4-way stop intersection (U.S. style) with a mini-roundabout. All that's needed is to remove the STOP signs and splash a bit of white paint onto the road to mark the mini-roundabout. Optionally, build up the mini-roundabout to make it harder to drive over.
mway 2y ago
Unfortunately, most drivers I've observed in the US seem utterly confounded by roundabouts, particularly the yielding part. The roundabouts I've experienced - there are several where I live - are mostly single-lane, and are still very nerve wracking to drive around because other drivers behave very unpredictably. Then again, I also see folks struggling with (or intentionally ignoring) queuing for 4+ way stops. That said, I agree with your points, and I personally prefer roundabouts to queuing stops. They flow so much better, and really help to improve congestion/bottlenecking.
- plorg 2y ago
  The state put in a roundabout in my town last year on an a relatively busy county road with a turn towards a new elementary school. While a lot of people had big opinions on it before it was built they figured it out pretty quickly, to the point that it's a non-issue. My manager, who is kind of a crank, noted the first day he used it to drop his kid off that he didn't expect it to work but it ended up being really smooth. In my experience drivers now are more consistent at navigating the roundabout correctly than at following right of way at any of the 4-way stops in town.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  Truthfully I'd say about 60% of drivers in the States have no business behind the wheel of anything, much less the mammoth pedestrian-devouring SUVs and trucks we're such fans of. It is shocking how BAD it is getting. I think COVID really kicked the enshittification of drivers here into a new realm. That spat where driving tests were suspended in so many places and driving school wasn't workable has let a couple years worth of drivers onto the road who had almost no practical instruction, and it fucking shows. And it's not like most people were good before that. For the vast majority, driving is a chore and you can tell that by the absolutely bare-minimum efforts put into it.
agurk 2y ago
> With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction When being taught how to ride a motorcycle, one of the lessons is a series of extra checks that you're not taught when learning to drive a car. These are known as lifesaver checks. Entering a roundabout is a left turn in Ireland (right turn in right hand drive countries) so you would check over your left shoulder to make sure nothing was on your left. This is performed after doing a normal right and ahead check for traffic already on the roundabout. I have never caught anything with a roundabout lifesaver (I have in other situations) but I can see how it's useful on roundabouts with multiple entry lanes, or if something like a bicycle had appeared on your right.
Taniwha 2y ago
I've lived with both roundabouts and 4-way stops, I think they both have their places (and also if you haven't lived with them both are hard to pick up on) 4-way stops are great for slowing traffic in neighbourhoods (you have to stop at every block), roundabouts better on faster mid level roads
dmurray 2y ago
There's one four-way stop I pass regularly in Ireland [0]. I suspect there isn't enough room for a roundabout, and we also don't tend to construct roundabouts on hills (I'm not sure why they're any worse than other junctions there). There's a steep gradient going uphill from South to North. Normally it would be a two way stop, and I sometimes wonder why that wasn't chosen here. Likely because visibility is bad (trees, walls, curves - it's worse than it looks in the satellite image) and cars coming from the east and west can't completely tell that it's safe to enter the junction. [0] https://maps.app.goo.gl/i5pezayHLJEDPEPLA https://maps.app.goo.gl/i5pezayHLJEDPEPLA
- dsego 2y ago
  A four-way stop would be confusing for me, those don't exist in my country as far as I'm aware. I was also thought that a stop or yield sign means I'm on the side road and the other road implicitly has priority.
  - btbuildem 2y ago
    The concept of priority and side road was too complex for North Americans. Yield signs virtually don't exist here.
    - dsego 2y ago
      It can get complex for us here as well, one example is when the priority road doesn't go straight through the intersection, eg. L-shaped main road, and then the other two have a stop and a yield sing. A lot of people where I live wrongly think that the yield has priority over the stop sign, it's a widespread misconception (I'd say more people believe it than not). In reality the priority to the right rule applies between side roads and the only difference between yield & stop is that the stop sign requires you to actually stop the vehicle. And then there are plenty of T intersections in smaller towns and villages where people assume the road going straight is the main road, even though there aren't signs and the priority to right would apply. I guess drivers mostly rely on habits and intuition.
willcipriano 2y ago
> Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road The other side may have a stop sign, but are they stopping? Its sort of useless to know if you have the right of way or not when you drive defensively. Just assume you don't and only go if you actually see someone yielding/preparing to yield to you.

dave333 2y ago

That is a good way to have an accident - I know since I've done it. While "looking one way" on a USA counterclockwise roundabout you are looking left to see traffic already on the roundabout and if clear you go and run smack into the back of the vehicle ahead of you who for some reason stalled or hesitated or just judged the traffic differently. However it will be a low speed accident.

sierra1011 2y ago
As a general rule, one should be looking in the direction in which the vehicle is traveling. It's easily done though, if rushing, or if the vehicle in front pulls away slightly but stops again.

bfdm 2y ago

Yep. Canada suburbs here. We're starting to see roundabouts used more often for what would be higher traffic four-ways or inconvenient lights. They're great, both as a driver and as a cyclist. Lower conflict risk, simple rules to proceed. IMO all smaller 4 way stops should become what I've described as trash can roundabouts. Small island to circle around. So much better than stop signs.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
In Seattle, we have trash can roundabout (really just round traffic calming islands, we don’t consider them roundabouts) and stop signs at the same intersections.
woleium 2y ago
In the UK they are called mini roundabouts, and are sometimes just painted on: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-roundabout.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mini-roundabout.jp...
- maltalex 2y ago
  Painted roundabouts will be invisible when it snows.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    People are generally driving significantly slower in snow though, so the need for a roundabout is lessened. And you can also install signage indicating a roundabout is there.
    - ygra 2y ago
      A roundabout requires signage in any case. At least in all countries I've seen one so far. Otherwise it's not a roundabout and may even have very different rules.
  - gerdesj 2y ago
    Do I really have to point out that you don't need road markings to drive safely when it snows?
  - DrBazza 2y ago
    The signs preceding a UK mini roundabout would not be. And it rarely snows in the UK these days. And I would hope you would be driving extremely cautiously if there were snow on the ground (in the UK) as it's such a rare event.
  - esskay 2y ago
    Signage exists. Plus the vast majority of times painted ones are used in areas where almost everyone on the road knows how it works, and within minutes of it snowing a very clear outline of the path cars have taken would make it abundantly clear what the process is. Roundabouts are engrained into UK road culture, you'd seldom find a driver in the UK that cant figure out how one works, even if they may not have great lane discipline on the larger ones.

MostlyStable 2y ago

Wait until you find one of the distressingly common places where they build a roundabout and put stop signs on some or all of the entrances.

rented_mule 2y ago
Yep, every time I drive through this one, I curse the idea of 4-way-stop-roundabouts: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7609857,-121.1244208,3a,75y,346.1h,93.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdCNzl4S-xi_XPR8aoxkgHw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7609857,-121.1244208,3a,75y,... Too many people remain at the stop sign until the roundabout completely clears, so it becomes an excruciatingly slow 4-way stop. And there's not much traffic there. A few miles from that one, there's a high traffic roundabout that works very well. The heavily used right turn lanes are divided and don't enter the roundabout. There are very clear markings on the ground. And there are yield signs at the entrances, so people know what to do. Traffic flows great through it, with the heaviest direction of travel naturally getting more throughput. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7004641,-120.976448,3a,75y,193.16h,91.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sILaRSpq1rt1z1F-T7BQnwA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7004641,-120.976448,3a,75y,1...
- dsego 2y ago
  Wow, what's the point of a stop sign at a roundabout?
sokoloff 2y ago
Or two near me have traffic lights very near (1/4 block or so) from the exit, meaning that traffic will inevitably back up into the roundabout, locking it up.
userbinator 2y ago
That's not a roundabout, that's a 4-way-stop with an island.
- MostlyStable 2y ago

bigstrat2003 2y ago

> Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. Your state is doing it wrong then. Almost every four way stop I've ever seen in the US has a little sign beneath the big octagon which says "4-way". Anyways, I have nothing against roundabouts. But I do have issue with some states (looking at you, Wisconsin) which are obsessed with tearing out perfectly good stop signs (as in, it's a low volume intersection or it's only a two way stop with a highway going through) and replacing them with roundabouts. It's just a waste of taxpayer money.

buildsjets 2y ago
My elderly father will go 20 mins out of his way to avoid this series of intersections in Oshkosh: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5SiJhyQREhNSN8PJ9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/5SiJhyQREhNSN8PJ9
- esskay 2y ago
  I do love how on streetview they've caught what looks to be an accident on it: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0108294,-88.5835298,3a,75y,50.98h,84.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL2y84KBAt8-lUlKEZ15Y_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0108294,-88.5835298,3a,75y,5... That being said that looks like a pretty decent and standard setup for a set of roundabouts, certainly wouldn't look out of place in the UK and would be vastly superior to a whole host of stop signs and red lights. It probably could've been simplified slightly by turning the two middle ones into one long oval roundabout, those are pretty common on motorway junctions in the UK.
  - JdeBP 2y ago
    I was going to make the same point. With that slight modification it's an everyday thing for many U.K. drivers and fairly easy to navigate when one is used to such. The Beaconsfield junction on the M40 is a randomly selected example of this very setup in the U.K.: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.59432/-0.62779 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.59432/-0.62779 Or the junction of the A5 and the A442 in Telford: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.67883/-2.43871 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.67883/-2.43871

bnralt 2y ago

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reason. I see people complain about roundabouts with traffics lights and how it negates some of the reasons for the roundabout. The thing is, these aren’t just put in for fun, usually they’re in areas with extremely heavy traffic where merging can get extremely difficult which leads to long backups (or in cities, accidents that can shut down traffic). Roundabouts can be great when used well, but they’re hardly the silver bullet that online discourse often portrays them as.

lmm 2y ago
They absolutely are. Even if they don't prevent all collisions, they turn T-bones into glancing hits and so save a lot of lives. The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  No easy answers, no solutions only trade-offs. Perhaps better for safety, but they makes crossing as a pedestrian longer and harder. And while intersections designed for roundabouts can be pretty smooth, retrofitting undersized roundabouts into intersections designed a 4-way makes for ugly and difficult to navigate messes. I like them, but it is a mistake to blindly install them anywhere possible.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    What's wrong with mini-roundabouts? We've got lots of them here in the UK, mainly in residential areas and I don't see the issue with replacing a 4-way stop intersection (U.S. style) with a mini-roundabout. All that's needed is to remove the STOP signs and splash a bit of white paint onto the road to mark the mini-roundabout. Optionally, build up the mini-roundabout to make it harder to drive over.

mway 2y ago

Unfortunately, most drivers I've observed in the US seem utterly confounded by roundabouts, particularly the yielding part. The roundabouts I've experienced - there are several where I live - are mostly single-lane, and are still very nerve wracking to drive around because other drivers behave very unpredictably. Then again, I also see folks struggling with (or intentionally ignoring) queuing for 4+ way stops. That said, I agree with your points, and I personally prefer roundabouts to queuing stops. They flow so much better, and really help to improve congestion/bottlenecking.

plorg 2y ago
The state put in a roundabout in my town last year on an a relatively busy county road with a turn towards a new elementary school. While a lot of people had big opinions on it before it was built they figured it out pretty quickly, to the point that it's a non-issue. My manager, who is kind of a crank, noted the first day he used it to drop his kid off that he didn't expect it to work but it ended up being really smooth. In my experience drivers now are more consistent at navigating the roundabout correctly than at following right of way at any of the 4-way stops in town.
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Truthfully I'd say about 60% of drivers in the States have no business behind the wheel of anything, much less the mammoth pedestrian-devouring SUVs and trucks we're such fans of. It is shocking how BAD it is getting. I think COVID really kicked the enshittification of drivers here into a new realm. That spat where driving tests were suspended in so many places and driving school wasn't workable has let a couple years worth of drivers onto the road who had almost no practical instruction, and it fucking shows. And it's not like most people were good before that. For the vast majority, driving is a chore and you can tell that by the absolutely bare-minimum efforts put into it.

agurk 2y ago

> With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction When being taught how to ride a motorcycle, one of the lessons is a series of extra checks that you're not taught when learning to drive a car. These are known as lifesaver checks. Entering a roundabout is a left turn in Ireland (right turn in right hand drive countries) so you would check over your left shoulder to make sure nothing was on your left. This is performed after doing a normal right and ahead check for traffic already on the roundabout. I have never caught anything with a roundabout lifesaver (I have in other situations) but I can see how it's useful on roundabouts with multiple entry lanes, or if something like a bicycle had appeared on your right.

Taniwha 2y ago

I've lived with both roundabouts and 4-way stops, I think they both have their places (and also if you haven't lived with them both are hard to pick up on) 4-way stops are great for slowing traffic in neighbourhoods (you have to stop at every block), roundabouts better on faster mid level roads

dmurray 2y ago

There's one four-way stop I pass regularly in Ireland [0]. I suspect there isn't enough room for a roundabout, and we also don't tend to construct roundabouts on hills (I'm not sure why they're any worse than other junctions there). There's a steep gradient going uphill from South to North. Normally it would be a two way stop, and I sometimes wonder why that wasn't chosen here. Likely because visibility is bad (trees, walls, curves - it's worse than it looks in the satellite image) and cars coming from the east and west can't completely tell that it's safe to enter the junction. [0] https://maps.app.goo.gl/i5pezayHLJEDPEPLA https://maps.app.goo.gl/i5pezayHLJEDPEPLA

dsego 2y ago
A four-way stop would be confusing for me, those don't exist in my country as far as I'm aware. I was also thought that a stop or yield sign means I'm on the side road and the other road implicitly has priority.
- btbuildem 2y ago
  The concept of priority and side road was too complex for North Americans. Yield signs virtually don't exist here.
  - dsego 2y ago
    It can get complex for us here as well, one example is when the priority road doesn't go straight through the intersection, eg. L-shaped main road, and then the other two have a stop and a yield sing. A lot of people where I live wrongly think that the yield has priority over the stop sign, it's a widespread misconception (I'd say more people believe it than not). In reality the priority to the right rule applies between side roads and the only difference between yield & stop is that the stop sign requires you to actually stop the vehicle. And then there are plenty of T intersections in smaller towns and villages where people assume the road going straight is the main road, even though there aren't signs and the priority to right would apply. I guess drivers mostly rely on habits and intuition.

willcipriano 2y ago

> Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road The other side may have a stop sign, but are they stopping? Its sort of useless to know if you have the right of way or not when you drive defensively. Just assume you don't and only go if you actually see someone yielding/preparing to yield to you.