6 ms·

I kind of see myself from ten years ago in this blog post! I also obsessively studied Mandarin Chinese in my late teens for the sheer fun of it, before doing a

by msvan 2y ago

I kind of see myself from ten years ago in this blog post! I also obsessively studied Mandarin Chinese in my late teens for the sheer fun of it, before doing a math undergrad. I even wrote comments on Hacker News about it a decade ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7622940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7622940. At the time I had seemingly limitless motivation for grinding away on flashcards and other learning materials. My progress was strong and I passed the HSK6 after a year and a half or so of studying, which at the time was the highest level of certification offered. I think they changed the system since and added more levels beyond 6. You can do amazing things if you're dedicated! Today my Chinese is absolutely unusable, and my views on China have soured to the extent that I don't really want to revive my old skills. My takeaway is that learning one of these languages, the CJK languages, Arabic, or similarly weird languages, is just too much effort and I don't think it's worth it. I clearly had a lot of excess energy at the time that I could've directed towards something better. Knowing Chinese is about as useful as juggling and you might as well get really good at juggling if you're bored. It'll save you a few thousand hours.

crazygringo 2y ago
> Today my Chinese is absolutely unusable Something similar happened to me -- did intensive Mandarin study in college followed by a summer in Beijing being totally immersed. Was incredible. Then continued with a language course back home, and watched as my vocabulary shrank -- something like 4 hrs/wk. of class (with homework on top) couldn't even maintain my Mandarin, much less improve it. Today I can't understand a thing -- I've literally forgotten it all except for counting to ten and some basic phrases. In hindsight, it was utterly wasted effort, except for the cultural benefits of the summer abroad. In contrast, I can understand and get by in French and Spanish and Italian just fine, despite having studied those far less. If I'm traveling somewhere I just do a quick review of verb conjugations beforehand. But they just share so many cognates with English. When television is télévision or televisión or televisione it's just not that hard. But when television is diànshì, and virtually every word is brand-new like that... it's just not worth it. (And even when you learn a new word in e.g. Spanish that's totally different from English, you'll often get it "for free" in another one -- e.g. "pretend" is fingir in Spanish, and fingere in Italian.)
- HKH2 2y ago
  Learning reinforces itself once you get fluent enough.
- mettamage 2y ago
  I know a bit of Italian and I found out that if I think hard enough there are cognates! Or, at least, something close to it anyway. I used your example of fingir/fingere and asked ChatGPT. See for yourself: Me: Is there a word in English that looks like fingir and is related to "to imagine"? ChatGPT: The English word "feign" is related to the Spanish word "fingir." Both words share a common Latin root, fingere, meaning "to shape" or "to form." While "feign" often means pretending or giving a false appearance, it can be connected to "imagine" in the sense of fabricating or creating a scenario in the mind. So, "feign" might be what you're looking for!
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    I found learning Latin (and to some extent, ancient Greek) to be far more useful for learning new words in the Romance languages (and English) in general than actually learning the Romance languages themselves.
gljiva 2y ago
Interesting. I had the impression that Chinese will likely become very useful during our lifetimes... With the momentum their economy has, I expect knowledge of both English and Chinese to become a very sought out skill
- TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
  tarrifs and other measures within the US and EU seem to be going the opposite direction.
  - fn-mote 2y ago
    It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend (I might even use a stronger word, closer to juggernaut.) TBH, automated translation is the only potential I see to reduce the massive need for Chinese language skills in the future. Already we (in the US) get (and choose to use!!) parts whose data sheets are only available in Chinese. It seems clear to me where we are going.
    - TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
      >whose data sheets are only available in Chinese.. What in the supply chain fuck up is that? How do you even get quotes? I've been supply chain at Tesla, Amazon Excelsior metals and i've never, ever had someone send me a data sheet only in chinese. >It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend. Close to 20% of all Chinese exports are easily priced out with a 60% tarrif. Again, you don't need to "Reverse a global trend", you only need to reverse the local barriers to distance trade between the two nations. So yes, learn that mandarin. Might help you land a job as a project manager for the belt and road initiative in Ghana!
  - kragen 2y ago
    That's what people in the Soviet Union thought 50 years ago too, about the USA.
- latentsea 2y ago
nojs 2y ago
Passing HSK 6 is hard, congrats. Instead of seeing it as a massive grind, you could integrate it into your life in small ways e.g. conversing with native speakers, reading some of your daily content in Chinese, etc. You'd get the skill back essentially for free, and enjoy it more.
chemmail 2y ago
This is nuts, if i learned Mandarin, i would probably move to Taiwan, where the CoL is almost 1/4th of where I am right now. I know some other languages, but loss the will to study anymore lol.
- HKH2 2y ago
  CoL?
  - Tronno 2y ago
    Cost of living
- kaliqt 2y ago
  You can go without knowing Mandarin, you can learn while you are there at a language school or university.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  You might as well move to any Chinese t1/t2 city; the cost of life is even lower, and you'll probably have more opportunities.
- jameshush 2y ago
  I'm a foreigner who's live in Taiwan over the past four years. You can move here tomorrow if you want :D. You can survive with English (though your life will be easier with Mandarin), and there are plenty of English teachers who never learned Mandarin who've lived here for 10+ years. Highly recommend living here. I met my wife here. Life's chill. Nobody steals. If you've made at least $60k in salary at least once in the last three years you can apply for a Taiwan Gold Card (kinda like a Taiwanese O1 Visa) and come live/work here very easily. The main reason I continue to learn Mandarin is because my mother in law speaks zero English, so it just makes everyone's live's more fun and pleasant if I speak some Mandarin. :D
HKH2 2y ago
> Knowing Chinese is about as useful as juggling and you might as well get really good at juggling if you're bored. If your purpose is to show off, yes, juggling wins.
aguaviva 2y ago
My takeaway is that learning one of these languages, the CJK languages, Arabic, or similarly weird languages, is just too much effort and I don't think it's worth it. An excellent observation, and one that also applies to pretty much any skill with a steep learning curve (but whose applicability in one's daily life is decidedly optional -- like learning to play an instrument reasonably well, for example). If you're only doing it "for the sheer fun of it", or as boredom reduction tool then it almost certainly isn't going to be worth it. On a more encouraging note -- while your Mandarin has evidently atrophied, it probably isn't completely gone. It's just gone to sleep. Language skills have a way of doing that (even one's native language, if one spends a sufficient amount of time immersed in other environments). But most likely it's still there, and if you ever took it up again, you'd be surprised at how quickly it comes roaring back.
slim 2y ago
I guess the chinese content is disappointing because lack of freedom of speech. but why don't you travel to china ? to have real conversations with real people
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
Agingcoder 2y ago
How do you define ‘worth it’ ?

by msvan 2y ago

crazygringo 2y ago

> Today my Chinese is absolutely unusable Something similar happened to me -- did intensive Mandarin study in college followed by a summer in Beijing being totally immersed. Was incredible. Then continued with a language course back home, and watched as my vocabulary shrank -- something like 4 hrs/wk. of class (with homework on top) couldn't even maintain my Mandarin, much less improve it. Today I can't understand a thing -- I've literally forgotten it all except for counting to ten and some basic phrases. In hindsight, it was utterly wasted effort, except for the cultural benefits of the summer abroad. In contrast, I can understand and get by in French and Spanish and Italian just fine, despite having studied those far less. If I'm traveling somewhere I just do a quick review of verb conjugations beforehand. But they just share so many cognates with English. When television is télévision or televisión or televisione it's just not that hard. But when television is diànshì, and virtually every word is brand-new like that... it's just not worth it. (And even when you learn a new word in e.g. Spanish that's totally different from English, you'll often get it "for free" in another one -- e.g. "pretend" is fingir in Spanish, and fingere in Italian.)

HKH2 2y ago
Learning reinforces itself once you get fluent enough.
mettamage 2y ago
I know a bit of Italian and I found out that if I think hard enough there are cognates! Or, at least, something close to it anyway. I used your example of fingir/fingere and asked ChatGPT. See for yourself: Me: Is there a word in English that looks like fingir and is related to "to imagine"? ChatGPT: The English word "feign" is related to the Spanish word "fingir." Both words share a common Latin root, fingere, meaning "to shape" or "to form." While "feign" often means pretending or giving a false appearance, it can be connected to "imagine" in the sense of fabricating or creating a scenario in the mind. So, "feign" might be what you're looking for!
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  I found learning Latin (and to some extent, ancient Greek) to be far more useful for learning new words in the Romance languages (and English) in general than actually learning the Romance languages themselves.

gljiva 2y ago

Interesting. I had the impression that Chinese will likely become very useful during our lifetimes... With the momentum their economy has, I expect knowledge of both English and Chinese to become a very sought out skill

TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
tarrifs and other measures within the US and EU seem to be going the opposite direction.
- fn-mote 2y ago
  It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend (I might even use a stronger word, closer to juggernaut.) TBH, automated translation is the only potential I see to reduce the massive need for Chinese language skills in the future. Already we (in the US) get (and choose to use!!) parts whose data sheets are only available in Chinese. It seems clear to me where we are going.
  - TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
    >whose data sheets are only available in Chinese.. What in the supply chain fuck up is that? How do you even get quotes? I've been supply chain at Tesla, Amazon Excelsior metals and i've never, ever had someone send me a data sheet only in chinese. >It’s very hard to see how those local barriers to entry would reverse the global trend. Close to 20% of all Chinese exports are easily priced out with a 60% tarrif. Again, you don't need to "Reverse a global trend", you only need to reverse the local barriers to distance trade between the two nations. So yes, learn that mandarin. Might help you land a job as a project manager for the belt and road initiative in Ghana!
- kragen 2y ago
  That's what people in the Soviet Union thought 50 years ago too, about the USA.
latentsea 2y ago

nojs 2y ago

Passing HSK 6 is hard, congrats. Instead of seeing it as a massive grind, you could integrate it into your life in small ways e.g. conversing with native speakers, reading some of your daily content in Chinese, etc. You'd get the skill back essentially for free, and enjoy it more.

chemmail 2y ago

This is nuts, if i learned Mandarin, i would probably move to Taiwan, where the CoL is almost 1/4th of where I am right now. I know some other languages, but loss the will to study anymore lol.

HKH2 2y ago
CoL?
- Tronno 2y ago
  Cost of living
kaliqt 2y ago
You can go without knowing Mandarin, you can learn while you are there at a language school or university.
ossobuco 2y ago
You might as well move to any Chinese t1/t2 city; the cost of life is even lower, and you'll probably have more opportunities.
jameshush 2y ago
I'm a foreigner who's live in Taiwan over the past four years. You can move here tomorrow if you want :D. You can survive with English (though your life will be easier with Mandarin), and there are plenty of English teachers who never learned Mandarin who've lived here for 10+ years. Highly recommend living here. I met my wife here. Life's chill. Nobody steals. If you've made at least $60k in salary at least once in the last three years you can apply for a Taiwan Gold Card (kinda like a Taiwanese O1 Visa) and come live/work here very easily. The main reason I continue to learn Mandarin is because my mother in law speaks zero English, so it just makes everyone's live's more fun and pleasant if I speak some Mandarin. :D

HKH2 2y ago

> Knowing Chinese is about as useful as juggling and you might as well get really good at juggling if you're bored. If your purpose is to show off, yes, juggling wins.

aguaviva 2y ago

My takeaway is that learning one of these languages, the CJK languages, Arabic, or similarly weird languages, is just too much effort and I don't think it's worth it. An excellent observation, and one that also applies to pretty much any skill with a steep learning curve (but whose applicability in one's daily life is decidedly optional -- like learning to play an instrument reasonably well, for example). If you're only doing it "for the sheer fun of it", or as boredom reduction tool then it almost certainly isn't going to be worth it. On a more encouraging note -- while your Mandarin has evidently atrophied, it probably isn't completely gone. It's just gone to sleep. Language skills have a way of doing that (even one's native language, if one spends a sufficient amount of time immersed in other environments). But most likely it's still there, and if you ever took it up again, you'd be surprised at how quickly it comes roaring back.

slim 2y ago

I guess the chinese content is disappointing because lack of freedom of speech. but why don't you travel to china ? to have real conversations with real people

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

Agingcoder 2y ago

How do you define ‘worth it’ ?