10 ms·

They need a new vehicle category? Why does an electric bicycle need a driver license in the first place?

GuB-42 2y ago
I think that part is wrong. You don't need a license to ride an e-bike in Japan. However, what would be an e-bike in some other country would be classified as a moped in Japan, requiring a driver's license. In particular, the amount of assistance an e-bike can provide is limited, some power has to come from the rider to be classified as an e-bike. So it is possible that because of some quirks of the Japanese regulations, an electric suitcase would be classified as a moped, therefore requiring a license.
- stubish 2y ago
  I think the classification is pretty standard. A bicycle has pedals. A motorcycle/moped does not. Legal definitions start drifting by region about things like can you ride an e-bike without using the pedals or maximum speeds. So I doubt anywhere would consider these bicycles. What is more interesting to me is if it fits into the same category as mobility scooter, wheelchair or golf buggy. Over here in my state, mobility scooters are only legal in public if you are injured, have difficulty walking or other disability. Electric scooters were entirely illegal until recently, unless they were under powered enough to be classified as a toy (which was so low they where incapable of transporting a teenager or adult)
petsfed 2y ago
Part of the problem here is that it seems like you can't actually pedal this thing, which is to me (and a lot of lawmakers in the US) sort of foundational to the concept "bicycle". The other problem here is that with ever-increasing electric motor technology, old standards like engine displacement, or even power supply (gas vs electric) are not great indicators of the maximum speed of these things. As it stands, while 13 km/h is not that fast (its a reasonable jogging pace), it is very fast if the user is zoned out on their phone, which happens all too often in e.g. airports or tourist zones.
- recursive 2y ago
  I see a lot of scooters around here with vestigial compliance pedals, mostly driven by gig delivery drivers. The form factor looks more like a moped. No one would ever use those pedals. Clearly they're there to skirt some kind of regulation. I'm not sure what the fix is, but "able to pedaled" is kind of a ridiculous compromise.
  - throwaway22032 2y ago
    In the UK the pedals are supposed to provide the assist. Handlebar mounted throttles are not allowed. None of this is enforced.
  - emchammer 2y ago
    Vestigial pedals, LOL. Many deliveristas in NYC are seemingly competent riders. I noticed that an increasing number of them have bright red and blue blinking lights the exact color of police car emergency lights. That is distracting and bothers me more than a lot of their riding.
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    NY state has three classes since 2020: pedal-assist only, pedals with independent hand throttle up to 20 MPH, pedals with independent hand throttle up to 25 MPH (NYC only, slower than standard class 3).
  - janstice 2y ago
    In 60s/70s France 14 year olds could ride motorised bicycles, so Vespa sold a Pedalo - a regular (but lower-powered I think) Vespa scooter with pedals as well as 2-stroke engine - you had to put the engine in neutral to pedal (I bet not many 14 year olds did this).
    - umeshunni 2y ago
      Isn't that what a moped is?
Johnny555 2y ago
Because many electric "bicycles" are throttle controlled and are essentially electric motorcyles and they should be regulated as such. The "pedal assist" ones aren't so bad, but some of the more powerful ones with unrestricted motors can go 40+ mph. Even the pedal assist ones can be a hazard by giving a rider false confidence or letting him ride faster than his capabilities. It takes a pretty experienced bike rider to sustain 25+ mph, but with electric assist, a lot more people can go that fast or faster for long periods without having developed the skills to do so safely.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Unsure where you are, but in most of the US ebikes that can go over 28mph are not ebikes. They are electric motorcycles, and must be registered as such. You're not mad at ebikes, you're mad at people with unregistered vehicles, and potentially drivers driving motorcycles without motorcycle licenses.
  - Johnny555 2y ago
    >You're not mad at ebikes, you're mad at people with unregistered vehicles, and potentially drivers driving motorcycles without motorcycle licenses. Yeah, but the problem is that they all look the same, many legal bikes even come with easily removed speed limiters. I'm ok with throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- regulate them all if it's impossible to tell which one is which until they get into an accident.
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      IMO this can be solved with education and enforcement in equal measure. This is not the first example of there being an easily-abused commons of some sort, where we all benefit from using something within reason but a few bad actors can make things radically worse for everyone. Radio comes to mind. It's very easy for anyone to prevent their neighbors from using their wifi, by trying to boost their own signal strength beyond legal limits. But people don't, despite the equally easily removed power limiters. Because the FCC will come down hard on them. Let's add more enforcement. Speed cameras everywhere, for cars and bicycles.

I think that part is wrong. You don't need a license to ride an e-bike in Japan. However, what would be an e-bike in some other country would be classified as a moped in Japan, requiring a driver's license. In particular, the amount of assistance an e-bike can provide is limited, some power has to come from the rider to be classified as an e-bike. So it is possible that because of some quirks of the Japanese regulations, an electric suitcase would be classified as a moped, therefore requiring a license.

stubish 2y ago
I think the classification is pretty standard. A bicycle has pedals. A motorcycle/moped does not. Legal definitions start drifting by region about things like can you ride an e-bike without using the pedals or maximum speeds. So I doubt anywhere would consider these bicycles. What is more interesting to me is if it fits into the same category as mobility scooter, wheelchair or golf buggy. Over here in my state, mobility scooters are only legal in public if you are injured, have difficulty walking or other disability. Electric scooters were entirely illegal until recently, unless they were under powered enough to be classified as a toy (which was so low they where incapable of transporting a teenager or adult)

petsfed 2y ago

Part of the problem here is that it seems like you can't actually pedal this thing, which is to me (and a lot of lawmakers in the US) sort of foundational to the concept "bicycle". The other problem here is that with ever-increasing electric motor technology, old standards like engine displacement, or even power supply (gas vs electric) are not great indicators of the maximum speed of these things. As it stands, while 13 km/h is not that fast (its a reasonable jogging pace), it is very fast if the user is zoned out on their phone, which happens all too often in e.g. airports or tourist zones.

recursive 2y ago
I see a lot of scooters around here with vestigial compliance pedals, mostly driven by gig delivery drivers. The form factor looks more like a moped. No one would ever use those pedals. Clearly they're there to skirt some kind of regulation. I'm not sure what the fix is, but "able to pedaled" is kind of a ridiculous compromise.
- throwaway22032 2y ago
  In the UK the pedals are supposed to provide the assist. Handlebar mounted throttles are not allowed. None of this is enforced.
- emchammer 2y ago
  Vestigial pedals, LOL. Many deliveristas in NYC are seemingly competent riders. I noticed that an increasing number of them have bright red and blue blinking lights the exact color of police car emergency lights. That is distracting and bothers me more than a lot of their riding.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  NY state has three classes since 2020: pedal-assist only, pedals with independent hand throttle up to 20 MPH, pedals with independent hand throttle up to 25 MPH (NYC only, slower than standard class 3).
- janstice 2y ago
  In 60s/70s France 14 year olds could ride motorised bicycles, so Vespa sold a Pedalo - a regular (but lower-powered I think) Vespa scooter with pedals as well as 2-stroke engine - you had to put the engine in neutral to pedal (I bet not many 14 year olds did this).
  - umeshunni 2y ago
    Isn't that what a moped is?

Johnny555 2y ago

Because many electric "bicycles" are throttle controlled and are essentially electric motorcyles and they should be regulated as such. The "pedal assist" ones aren't so bad, but some of the more powerful ones with unrestricted motors can go 40+ mph. Even the pedal assist ones can be a hazard by giving a rider false confidence or letting him ride faster than his capabilities. It takes a pretty experienced bike rider to sustain 25+ mph, but with electric assist, a lot more people can go that fast or faster for long periods without having developed the skills to do so safely.

margalabargala 2y ago
Unsure where you are, but in most of the US ebikes that can go over 28mph are not ebikes. They are electric motorcycles, and must be registered as such. You're not mad at ebikes, you're mad at people with unregistered vehicles, and potentially drivers driving motorcycles without motorcycle licenses.
- Johnny555 2y ago
  >You're not mad at ebikes, you're mad at people with unregistered vehicles, and potentially drivers driving motorcycles without motorcycle licenses. Yeah, but the problem is that they all look the same, many legal bikes even come with easily removed speed limiters. I'm ok with throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- regulate them all if it's impossible to tell which one is which until they get into an accident.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    IMO this can be solved with education and enforcement in equal measure. This is not the first example of there being an easily-abused commons of some sort, where we all benefit from using something within reason but a few bad actors can make things radically worse for everyone. Radio comes to mind. It's very easy for anyone to prevent their neighbors from using their wifi, by trying to boost their own signal strength beyond legal limits. But people don't, despite the equally easily removed power limiters. Because the FCC will come down hard on them. Let's add more enforcement. Speed cameras everywhere, for cars and bicycles.