26 ms·

I don't trust the device, the maker, the company behind the facial recognition technology, and you. If I give software access to analyzing my face it opens the

by Ajay-p 2y ago

I don't trust the device, the maker, the company behind the facial recognition technology, and you. If I give software access to analyzing my face it opens the door to overt and covert acts that further erode my privacy. But really, I don't need a reason other than I'm uncomfortable with it. I worry about people who are comfortable with it..

dylan604 2y ago
I don't want to upset or scare you, but if you've ever been in a picture that someone else has posted online to any social platform, your face has already been tagged, recognized, and a very thick file exists about you and everything you do, like, know, associate, etc.
- jobs_throwaway 2y ago
  Or walked through any major city. There's cameras ~everywhere.
  - EncomLab 2y ago
    Or driven anywhere there are (fucking) Flock cameras...
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  Theoretically, those kinds of images lack the necessary detail to qualify as biometric data. If they somehow do, then the whole category becomes invalid for that purpose. I personally oppose all forms of biometrics for security, as it can neither be invalidated, nor is it safe from physical coercion. I also oppose biometric use for "tracking attention" because it's none of anybody's business but mine.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    tracking attention when you're driving is everyone's business. I'd rather you have a camera in your car making sure you're looking at the road, than have to drive next to someone who is on their cellphone and is trusting the self driving feature of their car.
    - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
      There's a difference between tracking attention locally for driving as you suggest, and doing so for advertising and mobile device security, which is what the conversation was previously about. While I consider your example valid in a vacuum, it poses a substantial privacy and financial risk in the real world. If a car that tracks attention also phones home, your insurance carrier may raise your rates or cancel your plan for occasional glances away (sneezes, children, etc), regardless of an actual problem on the road. Such measures ought to only exist locally within a car, but I have absolutely no faith that it will be implemented that way given the current data shared along those lines.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        I am moving the discussion somewhat but it's not a theoretical. Ford's Blue Cruise system has a camera that looks at the drivers eyes to make sure the driver is watching the road and not texting. It covers a large amount of freeways. it's not as good as Tesla's full self driving but it very much does the job of driving on the freeway in traffic for you.
- phkahler 2y ago
  >> but if you've ever been in a picture that someone else has posted online to any social platform, your face has already been tagged, recognized, and And that is a completely different issue. The OP just wants to prevent that type of thing when they can. If I walked up to several individuals (maybe even you) on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up, a lot of them would object. I don't think "why not let me take it, it's already online someplace" would be a convincing reason to allow it.
  - eminent101 2y ago
    > If I walked up to several individuals (maybe even you) on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up, a lot of them would object. I don't think "why not let me take it, it's already online someplace" would be a convincing reason to allow it. In many jurisdictions including where I live in, taking pictures at public places is allowed by law whether or not some other human happens to be in the frame of my picture. It is called "incidental inclusion". Others can request me to exclude them from my picture but they can only request, they cannot force me to do so. Of course, if someone asked, I am going to be nice to them and try and exclude them from the picture. Others could also try and move a bit this way or that way so that they don't get included in my picture. We live in a society and we can work it out. In reality though, nobody makes such a request because most people know the law and they know that if they are out there in the public, they could become part of other pictures by incidental inclusion.
    - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
      > on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up. I might break your phone. How difficult would it be to sue me and for what purpose?
      - gabeio 2y ago
        > > on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up. > I might break your phone. How difficult would it be to sue me and for what purpose? Easily. Damaging someone else's property is not even remotely on the same level as taking a photo of someone? How do I know it wasn't their _job_ to do so? Honestly if you think that level of escalation is okay I hope to never meet you in person. And trust me I find people taking photos of me creepy also but it's easier to block my face myself than to smash the person's device and expect to walk away.
marcellus23 2y ago
If you don't trust the manufacturer, then it doesn't matter whether you turn Face ID off, those sensors are still pointing at your face. Do you physically keep the face ID sensors covered by tape or something? And how do you avoid other people's phones/cameras seeing you?
- warkdarrior 2y ago
  And if you don't trust the manufacturer, how do you make sure you identified and covered or disabled all of the sensors on the device?
  - vel0city 2y ago
    And you don't trust the manufacturer with a scan of your face, but you put a significant amount of communications and positional data and logins through it.
- catlikesshrimp 2y ago
  >And how do you avoid other people's phones/cameras seeing you? You are missing the point. >those sensors are still pointing at your face some phones have a popup front camera. The camera is inside the phone. It is obscured and it would be alarming if it pop up on its own accord.
gretch 2y ago
If you don’t trust them, then your act of not giving “software access” does nothing.
overstay8930 2y ago
Do you avoid going out in public? Are you never going to step foot in an airport? What is your threat model here? Because it's pretty trivial for anyone to get a 3d scan of your face without you realizing it. This just sounds like textbook paranoia to me (as in, the actual dictionary definition as an illogical fear that impedes your normal life), because there's nothing reasonable about thinking FaceID is compromised to the point that you have increased your personal safety by not using it.
- kxrm 2y ago
  > illogical fear that impedes your normal life I don't agree with the premise that disabling bio-metric security impedes a normal life. Nor has OP given me any reason to believe they are afraid of it in the situations you described. Passwords and pass codes (when managed well) are perfectly normal security tools to use to ensure your privacy on a device you own.
  - lovethevoid 2y ago
    You can’t ensure your privacy on a “device you own” if you don’t trust the device manufacturers.
- phone8675309 2y ago
  > Because it's pretty trivial for anyone to get a 3d scan of your face without you realizing it. Maybe we should do something about this rather than being defeatist and giving up on privacy.
happyopossum 2y ago
> If I give software access to analyzing my face I have the legal right to ‘analyze your face’ if you are out in public. Why do you believe that there’s something special about a highly secured, on device FaceID capture that makes it more dangerous than a guy with a camera across the street?

by Ajay-p 2y ago

dylan604 2y ago

I don't want to upset or scare you, but if you've ever been in a picture that someone else has posted online to any social platform, your face has already been tagged, recognized, and a very thick file exists about you and everything you do, like, know, associate, etc.

jobs_throwaway 2y ago
Or walked through any major city. There's cameras ~everywhere.
- EncomLab 2y ago
  Or driven anywhere there are (fucking) Flock cameras...
MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
Theoretically, those kinds of images lack the necessary detail to qualify as biometric data. If they somehow do, then the whole category becomes invalid for that purpose. I personally oppose all forms of biometrics for security, as it can neither be invalidated, nor is it safe from physical coercion. I also oppose biometric use for "tracking attention" because it's none of anybody's business but mine.
- fragmede 2y ago
  tracking attention when you're driving is everyone's business. I'd rather you have a camera in your car making sure you're looking at the road, than have to drive next to someone who is on their cellphone and is trusting the self driving feature of their car.
  - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
    There's a difference between tracking attention locally for driving as you suggest, and doing so for advertising and mobile device security, which is what the conversation was previously about. While I consider your example valid in a vacuum, it poses a substantial privacy and financial risk in the real world. If a car that tracks attention also phones home, your insurance carrier may raise your rates or cancel your plan for occasional glances away (sneezes, children, etc), regardless of an actual problem on the road. Such measures ought to only exist locally within a car, but I have absolutely no faith that it will be implemented that way given the current data shared along those lines.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      I am moving the discussion somewhat but it's not a theoretical. Ford's Blue Cruise system has a camera that looks at the drivers eyes to make sure the driver is watching the road and not texting. It covers a large amount of freeways. it's not as good as Tesla's full self driving but it very much does the job of driving on the freeway in traffic for you.
phkahler 2y ago
>> but if you've ever been in a picture that someone else has posted online to any social platform, your face has already been tagged, recognized, and And that is a completely different issue. The OP just wants to prevent that type of thing when they can. If I walked up to several individuals (maybe even you) on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up, a lot of them would object. I don't think "why not let me take it, it's already online someplace" would be a convincing reason to allow it.
- eminent101 2y ago
  > If I walked up to several individuals (maybe even you) on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up, a lot of them would object. I don't think "why not let me take it, it's already online someplace" would be a convincing reason to allow it. In many jurisdictions including where I live in, taking pictures at public places is allowed by law whether or not some other human happens to be in the frame of my picture. It is called "incidental inclusion". Others can request me to exclude them from my picture but they can only request, they cannot force me to do so. Of course, if someone asked, I am going to be nice to them and try and exclude them from the picture. Others could also try and move a bit this way or that way so that they don't get included in my picture. We live in a society and we can work it out. In reality though, nobody makes such a request because most people know the law and they know that if they are out there in the public, they could become part of other pictures by incidental inclusion.
  - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
    > on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up. I might break your phone. How difficult would it be to sue me and for what purpose?
    - gabeio 2y ago
      > > on the street with a camera and tried to take a close-up. > I might break your phone. How difficult would it be to sue me and for what purpose? Easily. Damaging someone else's property is not even remotely on the same level as taking a photo of someone? How do I know it wasn't their _job_ to do so? Honestly if you think that level of escalation is okay I hope to never meet you in person. And trust me I find people taking photos of me creepy also but it's easier to block my face myself than to smash the person's device and expect to walk away.

marcellus23 2y ago

If you don't trust the manufacturer, then it doesn't matter whether you turn Face ID off, those sensors are still pointing at your face. Do you physically keep the face ID sensors covered by tape or something? And how do you avoid other people's phones/cameras seeing you?

warkdarrior 2y ago
And if you don't trust the manufacturer, how do you make sure you identified and covered or disabled all of the sensors on the device?
- vel0city 2y ago
  And you don't trust the manufacturer with a scan of your face, but you put a significant amount of communications and positional data and logins through it.
catlikesshrimp 2y ago
>And how do you avoid other people's phones/cameras seeing you? You are missing the point. >those sensors are still pointing at your face some phones have a popup front camera. The camera is inside the phone. It is obscured and it would be alarming if it pop up on its own accord.

gretch 2y ago

If you don’t trust them, then your act of not giving “software access” does nothing.

overstay8930 2y ago

Do you avoid going out in public? Are you never going to step foot in an airport? What is your threat model here? Because it's pretty trivial for anyone to get a 3d scan of your face without you realizing it. This just sounds like textbook paranoia to me (as in, the actual dictionary definition as an illogical fear that impedes your normal life), because there's nothing reasonable about thinking FaceID is compromised to the point that you have increased your personal safety by not using it.

kxrm 2y ago
> illogical fear that impedes your normal life I don't agree with the premise that disabling bio-metric security impedes a normal life. Nor has OP given me any reason to believe they are afraid of it in the situations you described. Passwords and pass codes (when managed well) are perfectly normal security tools to use to ensure your privacy on a device you own.
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  You can’t ensure your privacy on a “device you own” if you don’t trust the device manufacturers.
phone8675309 2y ago
> Because it's pretty trivial for anyone to get a 3d scan of your face without you realizing it. Maybe we should do something about this rather than being defeatist and giving up on privacy.

happyopossum 2y ago

> If I give software access to analyzing my face I have the legal right to ‘analyze your face’ if you are out in public. Why do you believe that there’s something special about a highly secured, on device FaceID capture that makes it more dangerous than a guy with a camera across the street?