6 ms·

I'll just add a couple of details here since I have had this happen to me multiple times... I'm an Australian citizen and this applies just as much to me as a

I'll just add a couple of details here since I have had this happen to me multiple times... I'm an Australian citizen and this applies just as much to me as a foreigner (for whom although I disagree about, I could make a reasonable argument for this being valid). Police require a warrant and/or reasonable suspicion of having committed a specific crime to search any part of you or your belongings. Border Force do not require this. When they ask for the code, they will either: - just open your device and rifle through your photos and messages in front of you, asking questions like "got a lot of photos of x, what's that about?" or "who is y?", ask you questions like "what are you doing in Australia? Who are you seeing? What's your relationship to them?" et cetera (even to me, a citizen who spends majority of my time abroad). - Take it into another room for 20mins or so and presumably take a dump of the whole thing for further analysis. I once asked "what is done with this data and how long is it stored" and they refused to answer the question. One time after refusing to hand over the code (politely) I was treated pretty aggressively, had my whole body searched (not strip searched, groped well all over), all my luggage taken apart etc. I received a letter in the mail that I could go and collect my phone at the airport after around 3 weeks. It seems unlikely they have some tech which allows exfiltration of data from a locked iPhone(?) so I'm not sure what that's about. They claimed to me that they do indeed have this capability. Since refusing to open the phone and letting them keep it I seem to be on some kind of list and have had a Border Force officer meet me at the baggage carousel a couple of times with the "please come with me sir" to my own private search area where a few of them are ready to search my luggage inside out. This seems to happen less recently since I have just given them the code. They have successfully made it inconvenient enough for me to comply. One time years ago they did the same thing with my laptop. Since that incident they have only asked about my phone.

Rinzler89 2y ago
Ah shit, comments like these and the videos from Boy Boy and Friendly Jordies makes me want to avoid traveling to Australia when I see how easily law enforcement there just violates people's rights using some legal loophole.
- bloomingeek 2y ago
  I couldn't agree more! Hypothetical: I wonder how they would react, on looking at my cell, if before leaving home I removed all my pictures and contacts, erased my internet history and removed all files? Would they think I'm hiding something or just being careful with my private data? Instead of, "Don't leave home without it!", leave home without data on phone. :)
  - tamimio 2y ago
    > on looking at my cell, if before leaving home I removed all my pictures and contacts, erased my internet history and removed all files? They take a whole dump for future forensic if needed, and that includes the ability to restore what you have deleted.
    - j5155 2y ago
      Surely this is not possible (assuming the recently deleted folder is cleared)? I know it could be done with insecurely erased hard drives but I dont think any phones are using those?
      - tamimio 2y ago
        It is indeed possible, recovering a fully deleted file or even chats logs is the easiest part, given it’s unlocked. I don’t know about Australia, but plenty of law enforcements use cellebrite (1), and there are other tools too that provide such forensic analysis. (1) https://cellebrite.com/en/home/ https://cellebrite.com/en/home/
    - bloomingeek 2y ago
      Hypothetical 2: leave your cell at home and just carry your sim card. After leaving airport, purchase a usable phone and insert sim card. Remove card and ditch phone when leaving country. Would they detain and harass this person?
    - DEADMINCE 2y ago
      If you wipe the phone completely and re-image it, they can't recover a thing.
grecy 2y ago
Have you tried not bringing a phone? I'd be really interested in their response when you tell them you don't have one on you.
- gruez 2y ago
  Or their response if you gave them your phone and pin but it's a wiped/reset phone.
  - fone 2y ago
    Or their response if you didn't give them the passcode, and the data port is rewired internally.
- dazc 2y ago
  Seems like a good case for having a basic Nokia just for travel purposes.
  - GJim 2y ago
    As I said earlier.... Most companies of any size, and civil servants, have policies to travel with burner phones/laptops when crossing (even benign) international boarders; including into Australia and "the land of the free" Frankly, it is so commonplace, it is not remotely unusual or suspicious to travel with a burner phone.
- Aerbil313 2y ago
  I'd wipe my iPhone and restore from iCloud backup after the airport.
ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
What would you say to people claiming that Australia is falling into authoritarianism?
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  "What's the problem if you ain't got something to hide? And who would possibly want to even live without a smartphone?"
- RachelF 2y ago
  There's another symptom of this. Those in power are exempt. When an MP, called Julie Bishop, had her bags searched, she used her power to get those involved sacked.
- DEADMINCE 2y ago
  As far as internet access and devices and things like this go, all western governments are going to become authoritarian in this regard. Only thing we can do is try to change the government, and otherwise fight back with plausibility deniability and using tools like encryption and steganography.
tamimio 2y ago
> They have successfully made it inconvenient enough for me to comply. That’s the point, unfortunately, that method works because most people just hand over their code without any questions, if enough people refused, it will be inconvenient to them not the other way around.
- akudha 2y ago
  I don’t think it will ever be an inconvenience to them. They’ll just hire more people and get more resources from the tax dollars. Plus, they probably enjoy irritating people even if it inconveniences them. Most people probably won’t last long in such jobs. I for one, don’t want to spend all my working time annoying others and being a dick. But the ones who do last long, probably get a kick out of being a nuisance

Rinzler89 2y ago

Ah shit, comments like these and the videos from Boy Boy and Friendly Jordies makes me want to avoid traveling to Australia when I see how easily law enforcement there just violates people's rights using some legal loophole.

bloomingeek 2y ago
I couldn't agree more! Hypothetical: I wonder how they would react, on looking at my cell, if before leaving home I removed all my pictures and contacts, erased my internet history and removed all files? Would they think I'm hiding something or just being careful with my private data? Instead of, "Don't leave home without it!", leave home without data on phone. :)
- tamimio 2y ago
  > on looking at my cell, if before leaving home I removed all my pictures and contacts, erased my internet history and removed all files? They take a whole dump for future forensic if needed, and that includes the ability to restore what you have deleted.
  - j5155 2y ago
    Surely this is not possible (assuming the recently deleted folder is cleared)? I know it could be done with insecurely erased hard drives but I dont think any phones are using those?
    - tamimio 2y ago
      It is indeed possible, recovering a fully deleted file or even chats logs is the easiest part, given it’s unlocked. I don’t know about Australia, but plenty of law enforcements use cellebrite (1), and there are other tools too that provide such forensic analysis. (1) https://cellebrite.com/en/home/ https://cellebrite.com/en/home/
  - bloomingeek 2y ago
    Hypothetical 2: leave your cell at home and just carry your sim card. After leaving airport, purchase a usable phone and insert sim card. Remove card and ditch phone when leaving country. Would they detain and harass this person?
  - DEADMINCE 2y ago
    If you wipe the phone completely and re-image it, they can't recover a thing.

grecy 2y ago

Have you tried not bringing a phone? I'd be really interested in their response when you tell them you don't have one on you.

gruez 2y ago
Or their response if you gave them your phone and pin but it's a wiped/reset phone.
- fone 2y ago
  Or their response if you didn't give them the passcode, and the data port is rewired internally.
dazc 2y ago
Seems like a good case for having a basic Nokia just for travel purposes.
- GJim 2y ago
  As I said earlier.... Most companies of any size, and civil servants, have policies to travel with burner phones/laptops when crossing (even benign) international boarders; including into Australia and "the land of the free" Frankly, it is so commonplace, it is not remotely unusual or suspicious to travel with a burner phone.
Aerbil313 2y ago
I'd wipe my iPhone and restore from iCloud backup after the airport.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago

What would you say to people claiming that Australia is falling into authoritarianism?

verticalscaler 2y ago
"What's the problem if you ain't got something to hide? And who would possibly want to even live without a smartphone?"
RachelF 2y ago
There's another symptom of this. Those in power are exempt. When an MP, called Julie Bishop, had her bags searched, she used her power to get those involved sacked.
DEADMINCE 2y ago
As far as internet access and devices and things like this go, all western governments are going to become authoritarian in this regard. Only thing we can do is try to change the government, and otherwise fight back with plausibility deniability and using tools like encryption and steganography.

tamimio 2y ago

> They have successfully made it inconvenient enough for me to comply. That’s the point, unfortunately, that method works because most people just hand over their code without any questions, if enough people refused, it will be inconvenient to them not the other way around.

akudha 2y ago
I don’t think it will ever be an inconvenience to them. They’ll just hire more people and get more resources from the tax dollars. Plus, they probably enjoy irritating people even if it inconveniences them. Most people probably won’t last long in such jobs. I for one, don’t want to spend all my working time annoying others and being a dick. But the ones who do last long, probably get a kick out of being a nuisance