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Medieval game pieces emerge from the ruins of a German castle
- tajstar 2y agoI'm amazed that the six-sided dice is so old and yet we still use it since it's such a great tool to get a random number for a game.
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoIIRC the design was already established, identical to what we use now except for the material, 5000 years ago.
- egypturnash 2y agoThat little chess piece totally looks like he’s ready to be the central character of a wordless stop-motion animation.
- arduanika 2y agoFunny. It's far more common to see medieval castle ruins emerge from German game pieces.
- JoeAltmaier 2y agoThat 'horse' looks like a bishop to me. The head is far more person-shaped than horse-shaped. And that necklace - surely homage to a surplice or other ecclesiastical garb or jewelry?
- duxup 2y agoI am thinking a horse with possibly some sort of head covering / armor with cutouts for the eyes. Thus the triangle shape. Possibly a horse's mane in the back: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/knight-in-chess-springer-eines-schachspiels-a879dafcfe1c46dd94a17a4c119acd31 https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/knight-in-chess-springer-ein...
- jcynix 2y agoHorses where "decorated" with cloth in medieval times, cf. this image https://fotos.mediafreedom.at/theater/sonstiges/xl/31-honoris-mittelalterfest.jpg https://fotos.mediafreedom.at/theater/sonstiges/xl/31-honori...
- Symbiote 2y agoThe caparison also served as a light armour, which could deflect or reduce the impact of arrows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparison
- xandrius 2y agoAbsolutely a bishop to me too but hey, who knows.
- furyofantares 2y agoHistorians
- JoeAltmaier 2y agoWho are guessing?
- furyofantares 2y agoUsing evidence rather than just "damn that looks like a bishop to me". There's lots of other old chess sets to compare to, and it sounds like these are from 11th/12th century which would be hundreds of years before bishops are thought to have been added to chess.
- compiler-guy 2y agoWell, who you gonna believe? A. Some random folks on the internet who have looked at a single picture of a chess piece and maybe play themselves, but apparently no other qualifications. Or: B. Medieval historians who have years of education and study, deep familiarity with the subject matter and publish books and papers on the subject, as well as consulting with historians of chess, and who have compared it to other well known, well studied chess sets from the era. I don't think the latter are infallible, but without something pretty compelling from the former (evidence? what's that?), I'm gonna go with the latter.
- pdw 2y agoThis chess piece likely predates the introduction of the bishop. The set would have had elephants instead, which would have been depicted with two tusks. See e.g. https://www.thehistoricgamesshop.co.uk/early-medieval-chess.html https://www.thehistoricgamesshop.co.uk/early-medieval-chess....
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- shagie 2y agoFrom https://www.lovecpokladu.cz/en/home/the-mystery-of-medieval-chess-dna-reveals-the-origin-of-sandomierz-chess-pieces-9409 https://www.lovecpokladu.cz/en/home/the-mystery-of-medieval-... https://www.lovecpokladu.cz/img/2023/gm4pro/Sandomierzské%20šachy.jpg https://www.lovecpokladu.cz/img/2023/gm4pro/Sandomierzské%20... In that set you can see the rook being castle like on the end, the knight with a "triangular stick out head thing" and an elephant which has two bumps that at first glance made me think breasts rather than tusks. Then the inner two pieces with the king and queen. The triangular head, however, is that of a horse's head rather than an upside-down miter or jewelry. Another view of it from a different angle - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsPKPECX0AEwYP6?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsPKPECX0AEwYP6?format=jpg&name=... The bishop itself was a later introduction - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(chess) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(chess) > The bishop's predecessor in medieval chess, shatranj (originally chaturanga), was the alfil, meaning "elephant", which could leap two squares along any diagonal, and could jump over an intervening piece. As a consequence, each fil was restricted to eight squares, and no fil could attack another. The modern bishop first appeared shortly after 1200 in Courier chess.
- JoeAltmaier 2y agoThe 'boobs' could be just that, representing the queen. That 'chess set' isn't even symmetrical! Two with triangular 'heads', one with 'boobs', one with a square projection! Couldn't those two with grooves represent bishops? More typical of a mitre than a crown, but hey this was Germany, maybe that's correct there. And yeah, that last link to the early 'bishop' has a slot cut in it too. Unless they found it with the board set up, then I'm gonna have doubts about any conclusions about correlations with modern chess pieces.
- shagie 2y agoThere are two "dual front bumped" pieces that are in the position of the bishop today. There is one piece next to the king that has the same structure, except no bit on the top signifying the crown. That set is hand carved out of deer bone - this isn't a super-high quality set (compare with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen ) Another set with a similar abstract design - https://www.thehistoricgamesshop.co.uk/early-medieval-chess.html https://www.thehistoricgamesshop.co.uk/early-medieval-chess.... - https://sites.create-cdn.net/siteimages/33/6/5/336500/18/8/3/18837576/634x445.jpg?1604155930 https://sites.create-cdn.net/siteimages/33/6/5/336500/18/8/3... > This example of 11th or 12th century chess pieces from Scandinavia, now in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg, shows two kings and a smaller, though similar, queen at the back right. On the left hand side are four rooks, and at the front four knights. There are two bishops between the knights and the two kings. The pieces between the knights and the kings again have a design that makes me think of breasts again. However, setting aside that those are bishops / elephants (with tusks), the knights at issue are without decoration have the triangular shaped heads sticking forward. Here is an Iranian set: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatranj#/media/File:Chess_Set_MET_DP170393.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatranj#/media/File:Chess_Set... You can see the horse like shape of the knight and two breast-suggestive elephant pieces. https://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/10/byzantine-chess.html https://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/10/byzantine-chess.htm... is a byzantine set. https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgYoRJIBLCmBmzvclvs99Buy3I8fOgGKlPD_Au126KKOzBTevUsng3U6gxmMhi95hhH-99m-e7DcYAePRGWK6wWrYvWEeJn3p5T8hXPPyMLa9xES882Q9DvzAvMOQDPjthbCpWq8wqP1kxv/s400/BZ-sandomierz-chess.jpg https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg... > The separate chess pieces of the Sandomierz chess set. All have double/triple decorative lines at the bottom and belong to one playing set. First row: pawn (top view), bishop/elephant (side view), king (overview), counsellor (side view). Second row: king (side view), knight (front view), pawn (overview) and rook (side view). All images of this chess set are from the Sandomierz museum website. The bishop/elephant again shows the tusks. The second row knight doesn't show the triangular shaped head as well though. You will see that the counsellor (Byzantine doesn't have the queen) is similar to that of the king, without the crown.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- AdmiralAsshat 2y agoI, too, initially thought the 'horse' piece was a person with cartoonish eyes similar to the Lewis chessmen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen#/media/File:Lewis_chessmen_23.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen#/media/File:Lew...
- joshuaheard 2y agoLooking at some of the links to other finds, it looks like only one of the players' pieces has the "eyes". I wonder if that is an insignia to differentiate the players since I don't see a color difference.
- boredhedgehog 2y agoThe 'Bishop' theme for that piece is an English peculiarity. It doesn't exist in any other language.
- globalise83 2y agoI do find it amazing that even in a place like Germany with excellent state-level surveying and archaeology services, as well as at least two centuries of enthusiastic amateurs, there are still undiscovered castles lurking in the forests...
- hollerith 2y agoThere aren't. I'm guessing you live in a country with vast tracts of wilderness like the US or Canada. Germany is not like that. This archeological site is a pile of rocks that once was a castle. (The rocks are probably mixed with dirt and plant life and might have been completely buried.)
- fumeux_fume 2y agoI don't think the parent comment meant fully formed, intact castles, but rather the ruins of them.
- Swizec 2y ago> there are still undiscovered castles lurking in the forests As with all anthropology/archaeology, there is a big difference between “discovered” [by science] and “known” [by the locals]. The locals most certainly know of every castle and even those castles that are now ruins probably have local legends/stories of how there used to be a castle in such and such place. But none of that counts until an archaeologist/anthropologist comes and writes it down. They then bombastically proclaim to have discovered a thing! (that all the locals already knew about for decades/centuries) Sauce: my partner studied anthropology and this was a running joke in her program. It is very rare for an academic to be the first to discover anything. Usually they get tipped off by someone local who doesn’t count
- usrusr 2y agoWhile there can certainly be case where items of local knowledge haven't been cataloged by (recent) science, I think that you are giving far too much credit to that side. It's not as if there was much oral tradition going on with ancient stories passed on from generation to generation, that just doesn't happen all that much in a place that had print media or better for half a millennium. What we do have is knowledge encloded in place names ("Burgstall"), but locals won't be any wiser about the history of the thing unless they happen to be the type of person who collects and consumes books written by local history science buffs of earlier generations. A chance discovery like this usually happens when some known (usually to science far more than to locals!) but not recently disturbed site has to make room for an infrastructure project and the archeologists are sent in to make use of the last chance to see.
- Isamu 2y ago>“In the Middle Ages, chess was one of the seven skills that a good knight should master,” Where is that attested in writing of the time?
- shagie 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chess#cite_ref-Vale1b_58-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chess#cite_ref-Vale... > Peter Alfonsi, in his work Disciplina Clericalis, listed chess among the seven skills that a good knight must acquire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciplina_clericalis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciplina_clericalis > Disciplina clericalis is a book by Petrus Alphonsi. Written in Latin at the beginning of the 12th century, it is a collection of 33 fables and tales and is the oldest European book of its kind. The English translation - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_Clericalis https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_Clericalis https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_Clericalis/Tale_4 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_Clericalis/Tale_4 > Then, the accomplishments are: Riding, swimming, archery, boxing, the chase, chess, writing verse. The virtues (industriae) are: not to be a glutton, a drunkard, a sybarite, not to be given to violence, to lying, covetous, and of evil life." The disciple: "At the present time I do not believe there is any man of this kind." The latin passage (from https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_clericalis https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Disciplina_clericalis ): > Probitates vero hae sunt: Equitare, natare, sagittare, cestibus certare, aucupare, scaccis ludere, versificari.
- hugh-avherald 2y agoGlad to see that unrealistic job application requirements have been around for centuries.
- tomcam 2y agoI’ve applied for almost 120 knight jobs in the last two years. Several of them require 30 years experience at both swimming and poetry, which is absurd. It’s possible I’m being rejected due to my drunkard status tbh.
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- zwieback 2y agoI grew up not far from this site but have been living in Oregon for 30 years. One of the things that still strikes me when I go back to visit is just how much old stuff was around me in my childhood. Over there it's like "oh, let's put a nail salon in this 400 year old building". Here it's like: "oh, there's a 100 year old barn, we must turn it into a heritage site."
- philk10 2y agoYeh, moved to Michigan from England and was taken to the oldest pub in the city, 120 years old. My local pub used to be a hunting lodge used by Henry VIII
- space_oddity 2y agoWill always remember my visit to The Old Wellington pub in Manchester. It was built in 1552 and is the oldest building in the city.
- larsrc 2y agoFriends of mine lived for a while in Rennes in one of the only buildings to survive a fire in the 18th century. It was from 15-something and had nary a right angle to it. A bit scary to go up the stairs, but quite cool.
- contingencies 2y agoLyon's Musée de l'Imprimerie et de la Communication graphique is also 15th century and very oddly angled. https://www.imprimerie.lyon.fr/en/edito/presentation_musee https://www.imprimerie.lyon.fr/en/edito/presentation_musee https://thisislyon.fr/things-to-do/museums/museum-of-printing-and-graphic-communication/ https://thisislyon.fr/things-to-do/museums/museum-of-printin... Also in Lyon, the church of Saint Paul was built in 549 and rebuilt in the 11th and 12th centuries.
- MarkusWandel 2y agoIn my hometown in Germany there's a bakery that's been in basically continous operation since about the time Christopher Columbus set sail. Annoyingly modern web site, and of course in German: https://www.fidelisbaeck.de/ https://www.fidelisbaeck.de/
- 1970-01-01 2y agoI had trouble loading the article, so here's the image: https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2024/06/medieval-gaming-pieces-1024x701.jpg https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2024/06/medieval-gam...
- CobrastanJorji 2y agoThanks! That trapezoid-faced dude with the gear feels like he's just begging to have an indie puzzle platformer made about him.
- space_oddity 2y agoThat sounds like a great concept for an indie puzzle platformer!
- throwway120385 2y agoI'm pretty sure that's a knight piece. It looks like a horse.
- Eric_WVGG 2y agoThis was more or less done by none other than Alexei Pajitnov of Tetris fame — https://www.old-games.com/download/3676/knight-moves https://www.old-games.com/download/3676/knight-moves
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nickt 2y agoThe inverted triangle piece reminds me of the Lewis Chessmen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen
- LordHeini 2y agoNice that they provide the 3d scans. I want to 3d print the knight and it seems so strange that I can do that with a thing someone made 800 years ago.
- nestorD 2y agoYou might also like the Lewis Chessmen 3D scans: https://sketchfab.com/britishmuseum/collections/lewis-chessmen-a144a1513e2c48f3860a7a1d24598f9f https://sketchfab.com/britishmuseum/collections/lewis-chessm...
- dark-star 2y agoHa, cool, this was found literally 5 minutes from where I live. I hadn't known about this if I hadn't seen this article on HN
- msephton 2y agoVery cool, and I love the 3D models they've made available to view and zoom in on.
- not_your_mentat 2y agoDo opposite sides of the D6 they found add to 7, the way God intended?
- not_your_mentat 2y agoOMG, they do. This article just upped my dice snobbery game.
- croemer 2y agoOriginal press release in German: https://www.staatsanzeiger.de/landesgeschichte/schachfigur-aus-dem-mittelalter/ https://www.staatsanzeiger.de/landesgeschichte/schachfigur-a...
- mike_hock 2y agoSounds like something that would happen in Broken Sword.
- sopchi 2y agoCarved from antlers. What tool would you use to make such clean, deep, small, circular features such as the pips and eyes on the figurine?
- lightedman 2y agoSand grit on a rotated stick of wood. Still done today in lapidary circles.