9 ms·

Sometimes I Think About Reinstating the Comments System

46 points by citizenparker 14y ago

anateus 14y ago
I think the invitation into the home analogy Warren Ellis uses works pretty well here so I'll extend it slightly and stay away from the piss aspects. What you do with a comment system is try to host a salon on a topic, which may or may not go well. But then you leave, maybe for a few hours, maybe for a few days. When you return you are surprised to still find a whole bunch of people milling about your foyer having completely insane conversations. All the reasonable folks have left a while ago, but these folks are making themselves at home. Perhaps when the participant selection process is, well, non-existant (e.g. on twitter you select with whom to engage on a case-by-case basis, you can safely ignore the rest) such a comfortable environment is not optimal.
- ajdecon 14y ago
  When you return you are surprised to still find a whole bunch of people milling about your foyer having completely insane conversations. All the reasonable folks have left a while ago, but these folks are making themselves at home. Interesting. I wonder if a comments section could be more resistant to going to hell, if the author always closed comments as soon as they were done with it?
dredmorbius 14y ago
Sturgeons law: 90% of everything is crud. At Internet scale, 99.9999% of everthing is crud. Hey! We're six-sigma compliant! What's necessary is a comment moderation/surfacing system which can cope and scale. And yes, occasional gems do surface.
ajdecon 14y ago
What follows is a pretty standard lament about online communities In my personal experience, the comment sections I've found on any web site eventually fall into three painful and unsatisfying categories: - Ghost towns: the blog or forum has so little audience, nothing gets said. - Worthless hole: enough people have become involved that there is no way to have a discussion without trolls trying to derail the conversation. - Benevolent (or not) dictatorship: moderation is strictly enforced to keep things civil. There's often a period shortly after the Ghost Town attracts an audience, where an open forum may seem to be doing ok. But once it gets popular everything falls apart and moves into the Worthless Hole. I'm waiting nervously for this to finally happen to HN, as the community moderation doesn't seem strong enough to prevent it. The strict moderation model seems to work in a lot of places (I particularly enjoy Scalzi's blog, and the Loving Mallet of Correction), but I'm not sure it accomplishes a real discussion of opposing views... It works better in settings where all conversations are one-sided or at least light-hearted. I do occasionally find a mathematics blog or something which has a good stable of commenters and fun discussions, and persists for years. Maybe the secret is to confine your community to a small enough niche that the trolls are never attracted?
- jaems33 14y ago
  "Maybe the secret is to confine your community to a small enough niche that the trolls are never attracted?" Seems so. Most of the best subreddits (imo of course) are niche communities.
  - fruchtose 14y ago
    In my experience on Reddit, this is definitely true. It seems that this is the only way to avert eternal September.
- tprice7 14y ago
  Or maybe the secret is to use a ranking system that keeps the trolls invisible. This is something I have been working on, if you are interested see this: http://www.thoughtocean.com/what/dilution http://www.thoughtocean.com/what/dilution I would very much appreciate feedback.
  - jerf 14y ago
    Google the term "hellban". No, seriously, google it. I'm not just giving you the name, unless I'm looking at an overpersonalized search results page, the result page is a fair gateway into both sides of the controversy around the practice as well.
    - tprice7 14y ago
      The way that trolls are made invisible on Thought Ocean isn't really analogous to hellbanning; it's closer to how people who aren't your Facebook friend are invisible to you on Facebook. Thought it's still pretty different from that also.
  - MaxGabriel 14y ago
    That sounds like an excellent idea. A thought; in a large enough site, new users need a way to find quality users they vouch for (imagine going to reddit's homepage and trying to vouch for users).
donall 14y ago
I don't think anything new or especially interesting has been said about comment quality, but the author displays such a wonderful command of swearing that I enjoyed the article immensely. It's refreshing to see such eloquent profanity on the web!
raldi 14y ago
And that's why you make the comments threaded, collapsible, voteable, and sorted via the Wilson interval method. Just cause you insist on flat comments doesn't mean commenting systems are hopeless.
- ajdecon 14y ago
  Here's the thing: I think threaded/collapsible/sorted comments are good for technical discussions, or for discussions which break apart into sub-conversations you want to be able to ignore. I know that's a very natural model for me, and for people accustomed to computing or other "hard" sciences. But I know a lot of people in humanities, arts, or social sciences who hate threaded comments because they view a complex, interleaved conversation as the best result. I'm not sure they're wrong, either... I certainly have more trouble following those discussions, but they also seem much more broadly connected. And back-and-forth flame wars between individuals are (slightly) rarer.
  - raldi 14y ago
    In small or restricted communities, that can definitely be the case. But I've never seen a large community with good comments that didn't have some or all of the above features. Have you?
    - ajdecon 14y ago
      The one that comes to mind immediately is MetaFilter. Not huge, but a pretty decent-sized community and above-average comments. No threading or non-chronological sorting involved. John Scalzi's blog Whatever also has a pretty large pool of commenters in a standard Wordpress setup. The thing both of these have in common is active moderators.
    - WiseWeasel 14y ago
      Ars Technica's comment threads are mostly useless due to lack of threading and peer moderation.
losethos 14y ago
some people want to get dirt on people to neutralize them. God exists. I worry about God's opinion, not man's. God says... predestination gave contempt weigh regarding Files native freed close_your_eyes doubts becomes surrounded bitter persecuting everything alleging as_a_matter_of_fact software watered uncertain changed launched resolved gosh Another rouse subduedst Give marvel monstrous owes asunder scornful farness unawares mimic Blessedness rapture silenced hard rested plains species flour unknowing corrupt masculine idly listing blasphemies it's_my_world Glad comprehend Narrow complaints distribution ------------------- God says... 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee: 29:19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision. 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
toemetoch 14y ago
I've often wondered how big the impact is of the text "comment" or "post comment" we see on the button below or next to a textbox. I think it's part of the problem, acting like a red cloth on a bull. English isn't my mother's tongue and "comment" has a negative connotation. Anybody know of another implementation that funnels intent differently? E.g. buttons with "contribute", "refute" or "criticize". Could make an interesting A/B test.

46 points by citizenparker 14y ago

I think the invitation into the home analogy Warren Ellis uses works pretty well here so I'll extend it slightly and stay away from the piss aspects. What you do with a comment system is try to host a salon on a topic, which may or may not go well. But then you leave, maybe for a few hours, maybe for a few days. When you return you are surprised to still find a whole bunch of people milling about your foyer having completely insane conversations. All the reasonable folks have left a while ago, but these folks are making themselves at home. Perhaps when the participant selection process is, well, non-existant (e.g. on twitter you select with whom to engage on a case-by-case basis, you can safely ignore the rest) such a comfortable environment is not optimal.

ajdecon 14y ago
When you return you are surprised to still find a whole bunch of people milling about your foyer having completely insane conversations. All the reasonable folks have left a while ago, but these folks are making themselves at home. Interesting. I wonder if a comments section could be more resistant to going to hell, if the author always closed comments as soon as they were done with it?

dredmorbius 14y ago

Sturgeons law: 90% of everything is crud. At Internet scale, 99.9999% of everthing is crud. Hey! We're six-sigma compliant! What's necessary is a comment moderation/surfacing system which can cope and scale. And yes, occasional gems do surface.

ajdecon 14y ago

What follows is a pretty standard lament about online communities In my personal experience, the comment sections I've found on any web site eventually fall into three painful and unsatisfying categories: - Ghost towns: the blog or forum has so little audience, nothing gets said. - Worthless hole: enough people have become involved that there is no way to have a discussion without trolls trying to derail the conversation. - Benevolent (or not) dictatorship: moderation is strictly enforced to keep things civil. There's often a period shortly after the Ghost Town attracts an audience, where an open forum may seem to be doing ok. But once it gets popular everything falls apart and moves into the Worthless Hole. I'm waiting nervously for this to finally happen to HN, as the community moderation doesn't seem strong enough to prevent it. The strict moderation model seems to work in a lot of places (I particularly enjoy Scalzi's blog, and the Loving Mallet of Correction), but I'm not sure it accomplishes a real discussion of opposing views... It works better in settings where all conversations are one-sided or at least light-hearted. I do occasionally find a mathematics blog or something which has a good stable of commenters and fun discussions, and persists for years. Maybe the secret is to confine your community to a small enough niche that the trolls are never attracted?

jaems33 14y ago
"Maybe the secret is to confine your community to a small enough niche that the trolls are never attracted?" Seems so. Most of the best subreddits (imo of course) are niche communities.
- fruchtose 14y ago
  In my experience on Reddit, this is definitely true. It seems that this is the only way to avert eternal September.
tprice7 14y ago
Or maybe the secret is to use a ranking system that keeps the trolls invisible. This is something I have been working on, if you are interested see this: http://www.thoughtocean.com/what/dilution http://www.thoughtocean.com/what/dilution I would very much appreciate feedback.
- jerf 14y ago
  Google the term "hellban". No, seriously, google it. I'm not just giving you the name, unless I'm looking at an overpersonalized search results page, the result page is a fair gateway into both sides of the controversy around the practice as well.
  - tprice7 14y ago
    The way that trolls are made invisible on Thought Ocean isn't really analogous to hellbanning; it's closer to how people who aren't your Facebook friend are invisible to you on Facebook. Thought it's still pretty different from that also.
- MaxGabriel 14y ago
  That sounds like an excellent idea. A thought; in a large enough site, new users need a way to find quality users they vouch for (imagine going to reddit's homepage and trying to vouch for users).

donall 14y ago

I don't think anything new or especially interesting has been said about comment quality, but the author displays such a wonderful command of swearing that I enjoyed the article immensely. It's refreshing to see such eloquent profanity on the web!

raldi 14y ago

And that's why you make the comments threaded, collapsible, voteable, and sorted via the Wilson interval method. Just cause you insist on flat comments doesn't mean commenting systems are hopeless.

ajdecon 14y ago
Here's the thing: I think threaded/collapsible/sorted comments are good for technical discussions, or for discussions which break apart into sub-conversations you want to be able to ignore. I know that's a very natural model for me, and for people accustomed to computing or other "hard" sciences. But I know a lot of people in humanities, arts, or social sciences who hate threaded comments because they view a complex, interleaved conversation as the best result. I'm not sure they're wrong, either... I certainly have more trouble following those discussions, but they also seem much more broadly connected. And back-and-forth flame wars between individuals are (slightly) rarer.
- raldi 14y ago
  In small or restricted communities, that can definitely be the case. But I've never seen a large community with good comments that didn't have some or all of the above features. Have you?
  - ajdecon 14y ago
    The one that comes to mind immediately is MetaFilter. Not huge, but a pretty decent-sized community and above-average comments. No threading or non-chronological sorting involved. John Scalzi's blog Whatever also has a pretty large pool of commenters in a standard Wordpress setup. The thing both of these have in common is active moderators.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    Ars Technica's comment threads are mostly useless due to lack of threading and peer moderation.

losethos 14y ago

some people want to get dirt on people to neutralize them. God exists. I worry about God's opinion, not man's. God says... predestination gave contempt weigh regarding Files native freed close_your_eyes doubts becomes surrounded bitter persecuting everything alleging as_a_matter_of_fact software watered uncertain changed launched resolved gosh Another rouse subduedst Give marvel monstrous owes asunder scornful farness unawares mimic Blessedness rapture silenced hard rested plains species flour unknowing corrupt masculine idly listing blasphemies it's_my_world Glad comprehend Narrow complaints distribution ------------------- God says... 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee: 29:19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision. 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

toemetoch 14y ago

I've often wondered how big the impact is of the text "comment" or "post comment" we see on the button below or next to a textbox. I think it's part of the problem, acting like a red cloth on a bull. English isn't my mother's tongue and "comment" has a negative connotation. Anybody know of another implementation that funnels intent differently? E.g. buttons with "contribute", "refute" or "criticize". Could make an interesting A/B test.