8 ms·

The Adwaita Icon Theme no longer follows the FDO spec, breaking e.g. KDE apps

110 points by cullmann 2y ago

fito 2y ago
This is why I’m sad we at the LibreOffice project decided to embrace Gtk. We ported hundreds of dialogs to Glade and GNOME decided to fuck us over by deprecating it.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  I do remember something about Michael Meeks calling Qt something like legacy or deprecated when asked about the option to port LibreOffice (or was it OOo at the time) to Qt. The irony.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
superkuh 2y ago
GNOME devs are only paid to care about GNOME. It's been this way since 2014 when they started breaking Gtk3 applications by removing gsettings the community used but they did not.
- cullmann 2y ago
  I can even see why they want that change, but even just keeping the old icons as compat would have been good enough, I just miss the issue why on doesn't do that directly after the issue is pointed out.
  - superkuh 2y ago
    It's been 10 years and probably a hundred closed/wontfix issues on the GNOME trackers (this is latest: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5872 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5872) and the File->Open dialog in Gtk3 and Gtk4 applications still give an error message when you paste a file path into it. GNOME business use cases don't get people using keyboard input so they don't care. In this case GNOME business use cases don't use KDE applications so they won't care.
    - cullmann 2y ago
      I must confess we have a lot old bug reports around in the KDE project, too, therefore I can see the point that they might no set the priorities on such things. In the most cases in KDE or Kate it will only happen if you trigger the interest of a dev (if it is no fatal bug) or you can provide some patch.
    - hedora 2y ago
      This has been going on for at least 25 years. Search the internet for jwz cadt.
cullmann 2y ago
:( given the KDE developers (and other devs) did spend a lot time to ensure the applications they create work not just in their personal favorite desktop environment, this is all rather unfortunate, as it is now like it is in a released distro...
- Intralexical 2y ago
  GNOME as a project has consistently made itself clear on how it feels about the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem existing, or working well with it: 2012 — https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotti... 2021 — https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/ https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-... 2023 — https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gnome-still-sucks/ https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gn... 2023 — https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e301032670c https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e... Nobody should be surprised anymore when GNOME pulls some shady and technically questionable crap to try to make their "product" look better by actively breaking other people's work.
  - logicprog 2y ago
    That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. It draws completely wild conclusions that simply don't follow from the GNOME dev quotes or GNOME's behavior it lists in its support. Trying to have a consistent coherent vision for their own project isn't the same as trying to lock users into their project, let alone trying to sabotage other people's projects, nor do they ever say that's what they want to do, or that they view users as "walking billboards", just that they want GNOME to have a consistent experience so they can have basic quality assurance. They're basically trying to avoid the "carrier customized Android" problem. I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel, additionally repeating tiresome, worn out, utterly stupid and wrong claims like that GNOME is "a mobile-first" interface or "not suited to the desktop." I use nearly completely vanilla GNOME every day on my desktop, as a power user, and it's amazing --- far better, in fact, than KDE or any other DE I've tried. I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533
o11c 2y ago
Unrelated, but does anyone know how to get rid of the shitty monochrome icons that semi-recent (Debian stable) KDE uses by default (even for popular non-KDE applications) and restore the actual ones shipped with the applications (and of course, make the rest clear)? I spent some time in systemsettings5 changing theme options but the only breakage I managed to (partially) fix was the titlebar.
- cullmann 2y ago
  I think you mean 'Breeze'. I think to have other icons, you just need no select a different icon theme, if you installed one, but please not Adwaita :)
meibo 2y ago
Wow, those RedHat guys in the gitlab tickets and commit descriptions related to this are insufferable. Is this what happens when you get paid for open source work?
- pigbearpig 2y ago
  I was struggling to find the word that was appropriate, but you nailed it with insufferable. I can't imagine responding with such disdain for developers and users to a sincere request.
- LightFog 2y ago
  There does seem to be a culture of contempt for the dribbling masses (aka users and application developers) ruining the beautiful visions of RH devs.
- seba_dos1 2y ago
  No, it's just typical GNOME-ness. Having to deal with that while being paid for open source work does not make it any less insufferable.
bgribble 2y ago
I feel a lot of sympathy for the GNOME developers. They are 15 years past the "let's build something cool!" stage and into the long, long grind of support and compatibility and being expected to work everywhere all the time. As an outsider, it looks like all the cool kids moved on a long time ago so it's basically just people too stubborn to quit working on it and a few paid devs trying to make something happen with pretty limited resources. That said, as a developer I have basically had enough of GNOME, and I'm porting my personal projects to ImGUI. Does it integrate in the desktop? Not really. Is it pretty? No. It just is what it is (a library for GUI app development) and it doesn't try to be everything else that GNOME does.
- mook 2y ago
  It sounds like an alternative where they just don't pretend they support the thing the don't support was proposed, and shot down because that means they won't show up in UI that only lists things that support the thing? … And they also control the UI in question?
- chris_wot 2y ago
  I have no sympathy for them. They implement a spec and make a big song and dance about being open and standards friendly... and then when they don't implement the standard correctly they say they have implemented it correctly, argue about it and then when they are proven incorrect they just close the ticket, even though they could make small changes to fix the problem. They are just arrogant.
  - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
    https://youtu.be/gT9F4qHoYlg https://youtu.be/gT9F4qHoYlg They chose violence. They chose to copy Apple; they chose to go all in on the horrible idea of Convergence, where you have one monitor, and it's a touch screen (and if you don't, you're a second class citizen stuck in the old ways of using, y'know, an actual computer). Modern GTK removes ever more features and has wording like "tap" and "swipe", basically telling you it expects you to be a mobile developer. Everything gets more complex, more poorly documented, and more rigid, and the only thing they tell you is it's gonna happen more, and more often. If you ask them how to do something GNOME doesn't expect -- like remove rounded corners from your GTK window, they straight up tell you you're stupid for wanting to. Sympathetic lurkers don't know but try to offer some shots in the dark. Later, you figure out it's quite easy -- just undocumented, and the GNOME devs didn't wanna tell you. :D It's no wonder all GTK apps are toy apps compared to Qt apps and that many projects are switching from GTK to Qt, and never the other way around. Good riddance. https://youtu.be/uDjISuhSxDc https://youtu.be/uDjISuhSxDc
shmerl 2y ago
Just use KDE and avoid Gnome.
- juped 2y ago
  Just read the linked content before making a non sequitur comment.
  - shmerl 2y ago
    The linked content directly leads to what I said. Gnome developers should address this of course (and they don't want to), but I'll repeat recommendation for the end user - use KDE and avoid Gnome. It has been so not just because of the above issue.
    - johnny22 2y ago
      I prefer gnome though. :) Cosmic is the only thing I might be interested in switching from gnome to.
    - juped 2y ago
      No it doesn't, as you'd know if you had read it. The linked content is about a KDE program (Kate) having been broken by the negligent (malicious?) actions of Gnome developers. This is self-evidently not something "using KDE and avoiding Gnome" can help with (or has anything to do with). Feel free to read it for more details!
      - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
        If you're using KDE, you aren't likely to end up using Adwaita as your icon theme. The primary users affected seem to be users of the GNOME and XFCE flavors of Fedora where it's the default theme.
        juped 2y ago
        Interesting, I've always experienced everything under the sun depending on specifically adwaita (I don't use any DE).
tetromino_ 2y ago
By my reading, this is a Fedora bug, not a Gnome bug. Adwaita is by deliberate upstream decision no longer an FDO compliant icon theme, but Fedora sets it as the default FDO compliant icon theme in their builds. Clearly someone dropped the ball in the communication between Gnome and Fedora.
- Repulsion9513 2y ago
  It seems to me (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/288#note_2094825 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/2... who BTW seems to be a GNOME/Fedora dev from Redhat) that Adwaita is GNOME's default icon theme. Either way, I'm not sure why Adwaita decided they weren't going to be an standard-compliant icon theme anymore but were going to continue being used as a standard-compliant icon theme...
- ndiddy 2y ago
  My POV is it's a GNOME issue. If GNOME doesn't want to comply with the FDO icon standard, they shouldn't include metadata that allows Adwaita to be registered as an icon theme.
- cullmann 2y ago
  If it is that way, there should be no theme index that states otherwise in the theme. As mentioned in the bug, that still is the case. Even if not the default on other distros, users will be able to pick it in desktop envs that honor the spec and trust that file. We no longer do: Git commit c8b8a4db63b575edf931c3d61aea1ed3d3d287f2 by Nate Graham. Committed on 01/05/2024 at 21:50. Pushed by ngraham into branch 'Plasma/6.0'. kcms/icons: filter out GNOME's Adwaita and High Contrast icon themes These are no longer FDO-compatible icon themes, and are apparently no longer intended to be used for non-GNOME apps--going against what an FDO icon theme is supposed to be used for. I've contacted the GNOME folks about it, and unfortunately they've made it clear that the situation is intended; see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/288 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/2... As such, allowing the user to select these icon themes will just give them an opportunity to break all their non-GNOME apps. Let's filter these themes out to prevent that possibility. We still need to figure out a solution for when our apps are run in distros where Adwaita is used as the default icon theme, but that's a separate topic. BUG: 486409 FIXED-IN: 6.0.5 (cherry picked from commit 813d22ff80ede0c7c08e4563621e3778459426f0) M +12 -0 kcms/icons/iconsmodel.cpp https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/commit/c8b8a4db63b575edf931c3d61aea1ed3d3d287f2 https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/commit/c8b8...
complaintdept 2y ago
I'm using this post to air some grievances I have with GNOME. I've been using it for a daily driver for the past few months and it's come a really long way the past 15 or so years, but they don't seem to have a cohesive vision as to what they're trying to do. What's with the topbar? Why have the window title button in it at all? It's not like there's a menu to select different windows, and when you click on the window's button, it shows items that are better done somewhere else. It's like some useless appendage. I already know which window has focus, it's the one on top of all the other windows... Why hide the window's menubar behind a button that doesn't even have a consistent location, like users expect from the "close window" button? Looking at you Nautil- sorry, "Files". Their CSD titlebars don't work well with Firefox or Chromium, the main piece of software most users are likely to use. Everybody knows that its stupid, but nobody wants to be the one to change they do things, so users are left with tiny chiclets of grabable area in the upper corners of the windows. Completely idiotic. Why can't I change the time/date format to something sensible in the topbar? Why can't I just move (or remove) the damn thing anyway? Why all the emphasis on touch in the UI design, but I still can't select text without a mouse? Touch screen laptops have been around for a while now. It does a good job of exposing functionality, but it feels very confused, overall. And I'm a little upset that the first taste of Linux most people will get is going to be with GNOME. It's had tons of work put into it but it still feels half baked, not for lack of trying, but just a poorly thought out recipe, if you will.
- Repulsion9513 2y ago
  > Why can't I change the time/date format to something sensible in the topbar? Why can't I just move (or remove) the damn thing anyway? There a bit of settings in dconf-editor under org.gnome.desktop.interface.clock-* ... good luck.
gr4vityWall 2y ago
Those replies and that commit message are disheartening to see. Technical disagreements aside, there was no reason to call out/insult KDE devs.
- cullmann 2y ago
  Yes, I just fail to see why one not went with some easy fix and then perhaps thinks about enhancing the spec. Errors can happen, I did break stuff in the past, too.
kingspact 2y ago
Tough beans, wontfix
- cullmann 2y ago
  At least now it got re-opened.
sham1 2y ago
The way the GNOME Project has evolved over the years is just sad. The development ethos seems to be further and further away from the spirit of Free software. The project does comply with the "letter of the law" when it comes to Free software. That is, the project does give the users their four essential freedoms of running the programs as they wish, freedom to study the programs, redistribute, and modify. But at least IMO this is necessary but not sufficient for "proper" Free software. At least to me there is still stuff that is required for something to be Free software, even if you technically fulfill the definition. The "spirit of the law" of Free software to complement the "letter of the law". One of these is that you can act in the Free software ecosystem as a productive and good faith actor. In this case, the GNOME Project has decided to unilaterally break the FDO icon theme standard, and for what? Because they want to have the Adwaita icons as a "Private UI icon set for GNOME core apps"? This is not okay. One must ask if this change truly helps empower the users in their use of the software and their computers.
- cullmann 2y ago
  Yes, and if they think the spec is bogus and obsolete, fine, either help to improve it or just provide no icon theme that pretends to follow it, then distros know they need to install another one for 3rdparty apps...
miniupuchaty 2y ago
I like using Gnome but can see here how developers from other apps/ecosystems have problems with them. They were too defensive, in the end it seems they came around but there was no need for this counter-blaming.
butz 2y ago
Come on, Tkinter, now it is your time to shine.

110 points by cullmann 2y ago

fito 2y ago

This is why I’m sad we at the LibreOffice project decided to embrace Gtk. We ported hundreds of dialogs to Glade and GNOME decided to fuck us over by deprecating it.

ahartmetz 2y ago
I do remember something about Michael Meeks calling Qt something like legacy or deprecated when asked about the option to port LibreOffice (or was it OOo at the time) to Qt. The irony.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

superkuh 2y ago

GNOME devs are only paid to care about GNOME. It's been this way since 2014 when they started breaking Gtk3 applications by removing gsettings the community used but they did not.

cullmann 2y ago
I can even see why they want that change, but even just keeping the old icons as compat would have been good enough, I just miss the issue why on doesn't do that directly after the issue is pointed out.
- superkuh 2y ago
  It's been 10 years and probably a hundred closed/wontfix issues on the GNOME trackers (this is latest: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5872 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5872) and the File->Open dialog in Gtk3 and Gtk4 applications still give an error message when you paste a file path into it. GNOME business use cases don't get people using keyboard input so they don't care. In this case GNOME business use cases don't use KDE applications so they won't care.
  - cullmann 2y ago
    I must confess we have a lot old bug reports around in the KDE project, too, therefore I can see the point that they might no set the priorities on such things. In the most cases in KDE or Kate it will only happen if you trigger the interest of a dev (if it is no fatal bug) or you can provide some patch.
  - hedora 2y ago
    This has been going on for at least 25 years. Search the internet for jwz cadt.

cullmann 2y ago

:( given the KDE developers (and other devs) did spend a lot time to ensure the applications they create work not just in their personal favorite desktop environment, this is all rather unfortunate, as it is now like it is in a released distro...

Intralexical 2y ago
GNOME as a project has consistently made itself clear on how it feels about the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem existing, or working well with it: 2012 — https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotti... 2021 — https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/ https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-... 2023 — https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gnome-still-sucks/ https://felipec.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/one-decade-later-gn... 2023 — https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e301032670c https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-mess-is-not-an-accident-4e... Nobody should be surprised anymore when GNOME pulls some shady and technically questionable crap to try to make their "product" look better by actively breaking other people's work.
- logicprog 2y ago
  That first link especially is hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense. It draws completely wild conclusions that simply don't follow from the GNOME dev quotes or GNOME's behavior it lists in its support. Trying to have a consistent coherent vision for their own project isn't the same as trying to lock users into their project, let alone trying to sabotage other people's projects, nor do they ever say that's what they want to do, or that they view users as "walking billboards", just that they want GNOME to have a consistent experience so they can have basic quality assurance. They're basically trying to avoid the "carrier customized Android" problem. I glanced briefly over the other articles and it seems like they're the same utter drivel, additionally repeating tiresome, worn out, utterly stupid and wrong claims like that GNOME is "a mobile-first" interface or "not suited to the desktop." I use nearly completely vanilla GNOME every day on my desktop, as a power user, and it's amazing --- far better, in fact, than KDE or any other DE I've tried. I've explained at length why, and why their UX choices were justified, before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39985533

o11c 2y ago

Unrelated, but does anyone know how to get rid of the shitty monochrome icons that semi-recent (Debian stable) KDE uses by default (even for popular non-KDE applications) and restore the actual ones shipped with the applications (and of course, make the rest clear)? I spent some time in systemsettings5 changing theme options but the only breakage I managed to (partially) fix was the titlebar.

cullmann 2y ago
I think you mean 'Breeze'. I think to have other icons, you just need no select a different icon theme, if you installed one, but please not Adwaita :)

meibo 2y ago

Wow, those RedHat guys in the gitlab tickets and commit descriptions related to this are insufferable. Is this what happens when you get paid for open source work?

pigbearpig 2y ago
I was struggling to find the word that was appropriate, but you nailed it with insufferable. I can't imagine responding with such disdain for developers and users to a sincere request.
LightFog 2y ago
There does seem to be a culture of contempt for the dribbling masses (aka users and application developers) ruining the beautiful visions of RH devs.
seba_dos1 2y ago
No, it's just typical GNOME-ness. Having to deal with that while being paid for open source work does not make it any less insufferable.

bgribble 2y ago

I feel a lot of sympathy for the GNOME developers. They are 15 years past the "let's build something cool!" stage and into the long, long grind of support and compatibility and being expected to work everywhere all the time. As an outsider, it looks like all the cool kids moved on a long time ago so it's basically just people too stubborn to quit working on it and a few paid devs trying to make something happen with pretty limited resources. That said, as a developer I have basically had enough of GNOME, and I'm porting my personal projects to ImGUI. Does it integrate in the desktop? Not really. Is it pretty? No. It just is what it is (a library for GUI app development) and it doesn't try to be everything else that GNOME does.

mook 2y ago
It sounds like an alternative where they just don't pretend they support the thing the don't support was proposed, and shot down because that means they won't show up in UI that only lists things that support the thing? … And they also control the UI in question?
chris_wot 2y ago
I have no sympathy for them. They implement a spec and make a big song and dance about being open and standards friendly... and then when they don't implement the standard correctly they say they have implemented it correctly, argue about it and then when they are proven incorrect they just close the ticket, even though they could make small changes to fix the problem. They are just arrogant.
- shrimp_emoji 2y ago
  https://youtu.be/gT9F4qHoYlg https://youtu.be/gT9F4qHoYlg They chose violence. They chose to copy Apple; they chose to go all in on the horrible idea of Convergence, where you have one monitor, and it's a touch screen (and if you don't, you're a second class citizen stuck in the old ways of using, y'know, an actual computer). Modern GTK removes ever more features and has wording like "tap" and "swipe", basically telling you it expects you to be a mobile developer. Everything gets more complex, more poorly documented, and more rigid, and the only thing they tell you is it's gonna happen more, and more often. If you ask them how to do something GNOME doesn't expect -- like remove rounded corners from your GTK window, they straight up tell you you're stupid for wanting to. Sympathetic lurkers don't know but try to offer some shots in the dark. Later, you figure out it's quite easy -- just undocumented, and the GNOME devs didn't wanna tell you. :D It's no wonder all GTK apps are toy apps compared to Qt apps and that many projects are switching from GTK to Qt, and never the other way around. Good riddance. https://youtu.be/uDjISuhSxDc https://youtu.be/uDjISuhSxDc

shmerl 2y ago

Just use KDE and avoid Gnome.

juped 2y ago
Just read the linked content before making a non sequitur comment.
- shmerl 2y ago
  The linked content directly leads to what I said. Gnome developers should address this of course (and they don't want to), but I'll repeat recommendation for the end user - use KDE and avoid Gnome. It has been so not just because of the above issue.
  - johnny22 2y ago
    I prefer gnome though. :) Cosmic is the only thing I might be interested in switching from gnome to.
  - juped 2y ago
    No it doesn't, as you'd know if you had read it. The linked content is about a KDE program (Kate) having been broken by the negligent (malicious?) actions of Gnome developers. This is self-evidently not something "using KDE and avoiding Gnome" can help with (or has anything to do with). Feel free to read it for more details!
    - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
      If you're using KDE, you aren't likely to end up using Adwaita as your icon theme. The primary users affected seem to be users of the GNOME and XFCE flavors of Fedora where it's the default theme.
      - juped 2y ago
        Interesting, I've always experienced everything under the sun depending on specifically adwaita (I don't use any DE).

tetromino_ 2y ago

By my reading, this is a Fedora bug, not a Gnome bug. Adwaita is by deliberate upstream decision no longer an FDO compliant icon theme, but Fedora sets it as the default FDO compliant icon theme in their builds. Clearly someone dropped the ball in the communication between Gnome and Fedora.

Repulsion9513 2y ago
It seems to me (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/288#note_2094825 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/2... who BTW seems to be a GNOME/Fedora dev from Redhat) that Adwaita is GNOME's default icon theme. Either way, I'm not sure why Adwaita decided they weren't going to be an standard-compliant icon theme anymore but were going to continue being used as a standard-compliant icon theme...
ndiddy 2y ago
My POV is it's a GNOME issue. If GNOME doesn't want to comply with the FDO icon standard, they shouldn't include metadata that allows Adwaita to be registered as an icon theme.
cullmann 2y ago
If it is that way, there should be no theme index that states otherwise in the theme. As mentioned in the bug, that still is the case. Even if not the default on other distros, users will be able to pick it in desktop envs that honor the spec and trust that file. We no longer do: Git commit c8b8a4db63b575edf931c3d61aea1ed3d3d287f2 by Nate Graham. Committed on 01/05/2024 at 21:50. Pushed by ngraham into branch 'Plasma/6.0'. kcms/icons: filter out GNOME's Adwaita and High Contrast icon themes These are no longer FDO-compatible icon themes, and are apparently no longer intended to be used for non-GNOME apps--going against what an FDO icon theme is supposed to be used for. I've contacted the GNOME folks about it, and unfortunately they've made it clear that the situation is intended; see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/288 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/adwaita-icon-theme/-/issues/2... As such, allowing the user to select these icon themes will just give them an opportunity to break all their non-GNOME apps. Let's filter these themes out to prevent that possibility. We still need to figure out a solution for when our apps are run in distros where Adwaita is used as the default icon theme, but that's a separate topic. BUG: 486409 FIXED-IN: 6.0.5 (cherry picked from commit 813d22ff80ede0c7c08e4563621e3778459426f0) M +12 -0 kcms/icons/iconsmodel.cpp https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/commit/c8b8a4db63b575edf931c3d61aea1ed3d3d287f2 https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/commit/c8b8...

complaintdept 2y ago

I'm using this post to air some grievances I have with GNOME. I've been using it for a daily driver for the past few months and it's come a really long way the past 15 or so years, but they don't seem to have a cohesive vision as to what they're trying to do. What's with the topbar? Why have the window title button in it at all? It's not like there's a menu to select different windows, and when you click on the window's button, it shows items that are better done somewhere else. It's like some useless appendage. I already know which window has focus, it's the one on top of all the other windows... Why hide the window's menubar behind a button that doesn't even have a consistent location, like users expect from the "close window" button? Looking at you Nautil- sorry, "Files". Their CSD titlebars don't work well with Firefox or Chromium, the main piece of software most users are likely to use. Everybody knows that its stupid, but nobody wants to be the one to change they do things, so users are left with tiny chiclets of grabable area in the upper corners of the windows. Completely idiotic. Why can't I change the time/date format to something sensible in the topbar? Why can't I just move (or remove) the damn thing anyway? Why all the emphasis on touch in the UI design, but I still can't select text without a mouse? Touch screen laptops have been around for a while now. It does a good job of exposing functionality, but it feels very confused, overall. And I'm a little upset that the first taste of Linux most people will get is going to be with GNOME. It's had tons of work put into it but it still feels half baked, not for lack of trying, but just a poorly thought out recipe, if you will.

Repulsion9513 2y ago
> Why can't I change the time/date format to something sensible in the topbar? Why can't I just move (or remove) the damn thing anyway? There a bit of settings in dconf-editor under org.gnome.desktop.interface.clock-* ... good luck.

gr4vityWall 2y ago

Those replies and that commit message are disheartening to see. Technical disagreements aside, there was no reason to call out/insult KDE devs.

cullmann 2y ago
Yes, I just fail to see why one not went with some easy fix and then perhaps thinks about enhancing the spec. Errors can happen, I did break stuff in the past, too.

kingspact 2y ago

Tough beans, wontfix

cullmann 2y ago
At least now it got re-opened.

sham1 2y ago

The way the GNOME Project has evolved over the years is just sad. The development ethos seems to be further and further away from the spirit of Free software. The project does comply with the "letter of the law" when it comes to Free software. That is, the project does give the users their four essential freedoms of running the programs as they wish, freedom to study the programs, redistribute, and modify. But at least IMO this is necessary but not sufficient for "proper" Free software. At least to me there is still stuff that is required for something to be Free software, even if you technically fulfill the definition. The "spirit of the law" of Free software to complement the "letter of the law". One of these is that you can act in the Free software ecosystem as a productive and good faith actor. In this case, the GNOME Project has decided to unilaterally break the FDO icon theme standard, and for what? Because they want to have the Adwaita icons as a "Private UI icon set for GNOME core apps"? This is not okay. One must ask if this change truly helps empower the users in their use of the software and their computers.

cullmann 2y ago
Yes, and if they think the spec is bogus and obsolete, fine, either help to improve it or just provide no icon theme that pretends to follow it, then distros know they need to install another one for 3rdparty apps...

miniupuchaty 2y ago

I like using Gnome but can see here how developers from other apps/ecosystems have problems with them. They were too defensive, in the end it seems they came around but there was no need for this counter-blaming.

butz 2y ago

Come on, Tkinter, now it is your time to shine.