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Ask HN: How to improve PCB prototyping iteration time?

• nerpderp82 2y ago
  You haven't given us enough information to make a recommendation.
• ysso 2y ago
  We are using JLC for PCB + PCBA and usually the boards are ready and assembled between 5-6 days and then takes 3-4 days to get them shipped to europe.
  • RohKo 2y ago
    I see, I'm also based in Europe (London) so hopefully shipping time ends up being similar!
• talldayo 2y ago
  > Strongly considering moving to Shenzen to build the prototype. That seems like a profoundly personal decision that would have more ramifications than you expect. Breadboarding should be possible, same with soldering together prototype PCBs as long as you're not concerned with wearing the prototype yourself. There's also (albeit expensive) circuit modelling/validation software you could try to use. I don't think many circuit designers have a workflow where they perpetually buy finished prototypes to check if they're working or not, though.
  • RohKo 2y ago
    Interesting I see. I'm moving from breadboarding to PCBs because I'm using ICs which are way too small to solder by hand and I've already prototyped with their off-the-shelf dev board versions.
    • mikeInAlaska 2y ago
      It's just faster and easier to iterate PCBs anymore than large breadboard creations.
    • jon-wood 2y ago
      How small is "too small" here? I'm by no means an expert at soldering but with some patience I can hand solder down to 0603 components, and I know people who can go much smaller than that (right down to the sort of thing where if you sneeze finding the components you just scattered around is like finding a specific grain of sand on the floor). You can get practice boards for next to nothing online if you don't want to risk damaging high value components.
      • niccl 2y ago
        yup. I can do 0402, and I've poor eyesight and hands that shake more than I'd like.
    • xargon7 2y ago
      Consider ordering reusable chunks of your circuit as PCBs instead of iterating on entire boards. You can connect the chunks with breadboards or connectors or something.
• oakwhiz 2y ago
  What kind of board specs do you typically deal with? This can have a significant effect on leadtime and who you ultimately decide to deal with. If you just need a lot of unique double-sided boards to play around with in "alpha" and you can wait longer for the "beta" boards from your supplier, you can use several different small scale processes to accomplish that, such as photoresist, milling or printing.
  • RohKo 2y ago
    Using flexi pcbs with SMD parts on one side only - does that change your answer at all?
    • quasse 2y ago
      Do you have in-house SMD assembly experience? When I was doing fast turnaround prototyping, being able to build up the boards in house was invaluable. Do you need your prototypes to be on flex PCBs? If you can get the electronics ironed out on FR4 you're going to save a lot of time and money on prototype revisions. If you're waiting for JLCPCB to assemble all your boards for you you're slowing your process way down. Pay for 2-3 day processing at PCBWay and then assemble in-house. If you can prototype on FR4, PCBWay can literally manufacture the boards overnight and DHL them to you before noon the next day.
      • RohKo 2y ago
        Great idea! I've never soldered SMDs but can defo learn. We're getting are boards assembled rn because soldering LGA-12 package ICs by hand is unfeasible, and it seems pointless to pay the setup fee and not get the other components done as well. Does that change your answer at all?
        • gchadwick 2y ago
          Getting the tools and skills to do PCB assembly and SMD rework seems like a no-brainer (indeed I'd say essential!) if you're aiming to do serious work with building hardware. Not something I've done myself but soldering an LGA-12 doesn't look too hard with appropriate tools.
• krasin 2y ago
  > I'm building wearable tech, and the JLCPCB lead times are my biggest bottleneck for iteration. 3-4 weeks is way too long. Hm... my experience with JLCPCB is that I get 7-10 days iterations from sending my gerbers to getting my boards in SF Bay Area. Still long, but much shorter than your experience. Is it shipping, PCB manufacturing or PCB assembly that takes so much time?
  • RohKo 2y ago
    PCB manufacturing. They said the assembly is just about to start and they'll be shipping day after tomorrow. I'm in London so will have to see how long shipping takes!
    • krasin 2y ago
      In this case, it's not going to be changed by moving to Shenzhen, as you can really only cut on shipping times. But yeah, finding a vendor that can produce flexible boards faster than 2 weeks should be possible, even while you're in Europe.
    • gravescale 2y ago
      Often Pcbway and similar have a simple (i.e. 4 layer, no special options that can go in the most regular batches) board-only order on a UK desk in about 6 days from order (order at the weekend, have it in-hand on Friday). So shipping is around 4 days in practice, and around £25 (depends on weight). You're not guaranteed to have it but it's often that fast. If you have to move, move to a place near the start of your DHL driver's route as that can make the difference between 9am and 4pm delivery (and that goes for RS too).
• AlotOfReading 2y ago
  This is exactly what prototype PCB manufacturers are for. If you're in the Bay area, SF Circuits (and a dozen others) will give you 24h/48h turnaround times. This is a highly commoditized service. Even the generic manufacturers like PCBway have options you can purchase for faster turnaround if you meet the constraints. Don't move to Shenzhen. You don't have the social connections for that and it'd just give you a bunch of new problems.
  • RohKo 2y ago
    Lol that's defo true - I'm driven to this thought as lead times are super frustrating!
    • AlotOfReading 2y ago
      You mention in another comment that you're London based. PCBTrain is probably a better suggestion for that locale [0]. [0] https://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/ https://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/
  • stingrae 2y ago
    Sure but it comes at a huge cost penalty.
    • mrbungie 2y ago
      Moving to Shenzen also comes with cost penalties of many kinds. Bigger penalties than just shelling out more money to local companies.
  • the__alchemist 2y ago
    I am guessing, based on previous research into similar services, that this costs 20x more and doesn't do assembly. Is this accurate?
    • michaelt 2y ago
      Right, but JLCPCB pricing is like $5 for 5 boards. Maybe less. So paying 20x as much is still only $100. You don't get many engineer hours for $100.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• AdamH12113 2y ago
  Where are you located? 3-4 weeks seems very slow for JLCPCB. Are you shipping to South America or something? If you can afford the time, effort, and expense needed to move to China, maybe you should look into working with a local board shop that could provide more rapid turnaround. The best way to improve your development time is by doing fewer iterations. Often easier said than done, but you should be designing for test and rework and thoroughly reviewing your designs before submission. You said you're making flex PCBs -- have you considered doing fast-turnaround prototypes on rigid PCB to make sure your electrical design is good? What kind of problems are you having that are forcing you to do extra prototyping runs?
  • RohKo 2y ago
    We've avoided local shops due to cost until now, but when put like that, we should consider them now. Yep we've been optimising to reduce reruns, but the time spent doing so + the lead time is super frustrating. Standard engineering woes I suppose...
    • bsder 2y ago
      If the difference between $200 and $2000 prototypes is material to you, you probably shouldn't be doing hardware. Hardware has an enormous set of things that cost money to surmount. Packaging, testing, certifications, etc. If chunks of $2K matter, you're never getting over the next hurdles. Hardware isn't software. It isn't cheap.
      • TaylorAlexander 2y ago
        I strongly disagree that people discerning at this price point shouldn’t be doing hardware. If we’re encouraging people to write software apps on the weekend with the hope they gain some traction, we can encourage pre-funding hardware entrepreneurs to prototype and try to get a kickstarter-ready product on the weekends too. I do a LOT of hardware and the difference between $200 and $2000 matters a lot to me.
        • 2y ago
• abetusk 2y ago
  Fiber laser. Even a 20W fiber laser will ablate copper. 30W-50W are now avaiable for under $2k, maybe even dropping still. You'll be limited to single or double sided, without vias but considering its rapid prototyping, these are the compromises to be had. You could always try CNCing prototypes but this is fraught with trouble. Fiber lasers offer the simplicity, repeatability and speed that normal laser cuters, but with metal. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoYcjyghDx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoYcjyghDx4
• bsder 2y ago
  Is there no local PCB manufacturer near you? Normally, local manufacturers can do that sort of thing for about $2K or so with quick turnaround (<1 week). Assembly is normally anywhere from 1K to 5K extra depending upon complexity. You should be able to buy quite a few local turns for the price it would cost for you to spend time in Shenzhen. Unless you're Chinese is very good or you have a trusted local contact, you're not likely to benefit much from heading to Shenzhen in person.
• buescher 2y ago
  You’re confounding lead times on assembly services with iteration time. If you’re bootstrapping, find a good quick turn board house and assemble the boards yourself. Get an lga-12 stencil and hot air tools, maybe a benchtop reflow oven.
• DHaldane 2y ago
  Without knowing exactly what you are working on, here are a few ideas: 1. Figure out if you can do fewer slow iterations. What's driving the need for a full PCBA run for each iteration? Might be able to split out to rigid assembly and flex for example. 2. Run more experiments in parallel. If you have multiple ideas or variations to test, design them all and fabricate them all. Flex antenna? Make like 30 parametric variations. If design then becomes the bottleneck, then automate that next.
  • krasin 2y ago
    I would like to give this response a signal boost, based on the fact that the comment author knows a lot about PCB design, prototyping and manufacturing.
  • RohKo 2y ago
    Gotcha - thanks for the advice. The IC performance on the flex circuit is a key part of the product so will figure out how to test that in a lofi manner.
    • gravescale 2y ago
      Maybe you only need a small bit on the flex (main CPU and the DDR to prove signal integrity?), and the rest can just go on an ugly quick PCB for software validation and bringup. Stuff it with test points, current shunt points, larger parts for easy probing, add some mounting holes too fasten it to a test rig, whatever. Then just glomp the flex down to the test PCB with some nice Samtec connectors (you can enough free samples for a small batch of test units even) or an edge connector on the stiffener.
• junon 2y ago
  Don't assemble via JLC. Get a good soldering iron, skillet, sand, paste, and order from mouser to do them yourself. If you're iterating errata with a full run each time you are wasting unbelievable amounts of both time and money, and you're probably not tinkering with the board enough, increasing your overall iteration count.
  • SequoiaHope 2y ago
    I assembled my own PCBs for years and once I used JLC assembly I never went back. It costs more in shipping from Digikey to pay for assembly at JLC, so you’re literally not saving money. You’re also spending more time ordering parts, and the actual assembly is a pain even if you’re skilled. Hand placing components just sucks. Plus you end up with boxes of capacitors and resistors you will never use again. I just don’t think this really is a better way of doing things.
    • floxy 2y ago
      Do you generally limit yourself to the parts that JLC stocks? Or do you send them reels with the parts you want to use? Or will they order the parts you want? Last I looked, I don't see that they have any Microchip microcontrollers available (plus plenty of other active components and connectors).
      • antoniuschan99 2y ago
        I think that has changed? You can now send components to them that don’t exist at lcsc?
      • SequoiaHope 2y ago
        I do my best to use only JLC parts for convenience sake, but it is easy to order parts from global suppliers in to your parts cart at JLC. I’m not sure if you can send them parts but they have a “global parts” function in your “parts cart” that lets you search most global supply companies and they will buy the parts for you.
• utensil4778 2y ago
  Yeah, definitely don't rely on them for assembly. For prototype runs of a couple to tens of units, just do it yourself. Hire an intern for assembly and just order bare boards. Standard lead time for boards is on the order of a week, if not 24h. The equipment isn't expensive and you don't need much labor. I bet a 2-3 week wait costs you a lot more than a part time assembly tech.
• spxneo 2y ago
  side question: is there a LLM that can create PCBs from text?
  • rock_hard 2y ago
    https://flux.ai https://flux.ai
    • spxneo 2y ago
      thank you! this is exactly what i was looking for
  • duskwuff 2y ago
    Not usefully. Language models are terrible at spatial reasoning, and PCB design often involves cross-cutting concerns which interact with physical layout (e.g. requirements that the PCB have a specific size/shape or that connectors or user interface components be in certain places, thermal requirements, EMI, etc). None of the engineers that I've talked to have been impressed with the current state of automated design or layout tools.
    • spxneo 2y ago
      i see seems like thats the general view with LLMs with anything 3d or spatial I just want an easy way to get into PCB design but there is just so much learning curve
      • sokoloff 2y ago
        I built custom PCBs for a Halloween costume a few years back. Fairly simple board, but that’s ideal for a first PCB. I installed KiCAD on a Monday, finished the design, ordered boards the next day, and they worked on the first spin. (I’d already bread-boarded everything previously, so this was just the “create schematic and make boards“ phase.) If you want to learn how to design PCBs, I think it’s feasible to jump in and just start doing it (assuming you know how to design the circuit you want to put on it).
• cjk2 2y ago
  Add why to a checklist each time you fuck up. Then validate the fuck ups aren’t happening next time. I usually get boards right first time now. But it took me 2 years to get there.
  • w10-1 2y ago
    Have you shared your checklist anywhere?
    • tonyarkles 2y ago
      Not the person you asked and not my checklist but they’re pretty good: https://github.com/azonenberg/pcb-checklist/ https://github.com/azonenberg/pcb-checklist/
    • cjk2 2y ago
      Not yet. It’s mostly full of insults directed at myself so would need cleaning up first :)
• the__alchemist 2y ago
  JLC is 10 days order to arrival, for US east coast, with assembly. 8 days without. You're using DHL, right?
• NonEUCitizen 2y ago
  Pay for DHL Express shipping when ordering from JLCPCB.
• paulgerhardt 2y ago
  Most of the comments strongly advise against moving to Shenzhen. Having prototyped in both places I’ll make some arguments for. I’ll preface it’s only worth it if you’re beyond the limits of what American facilities can do and it's a step function in workflow and getting setup. There is an acceptable cultural tunnel vision in our field that developed in the 1980s for "how to do things" and hasn't changed much beyond "4 layer pcb on FR4 with surface mount components" - going against that grain requires an interdisciplinary mindset - as in "make a functioning circuit on a piece of toast" level of creativity[1]. If you’re building wearable tech there’s a strong chance you’ll need to make flex pcbs sooner or later. Those are comically cheap in China and stupid expensive stateside. Especially when you start pushing the boundaries - there’s so much low hanging fruit for experimenting with your PCBs when you’re in the factory making them. Most US manufacturers will only let you use one color for a solder mask. In Shenzhen we pioneered using full RGB to print any graphic on your pcb back in 2017. Even on top of the chips themselves. It’s now pretty easy to source. This is literally just by being on the factory floor and saying “hey can you do step 5 before you do step 4? - we want to take the boards to this other factory across town first” And they say “sure”. Likewise if you want to mount your parts sideways or upside down to save space. Or say, take a literal sea shell through a copper PVD machine and mill away some traces and mount some chips. They do not care and will gladly take your money and make it happen. One time we couldn’t find a single vendor in the US or Europe who would embed chips in the middle of pcb layers[2]. This was a weekend project for one of our Chinese vendors - who also had never done this but it sounded like fun so she said “no problem”. Can get turnaround on prototype boards with assembly for free once you have a cm or just $50 if you don’t. One American vendor comically insisted one couldn’t mix flex and rigid boards for one of our designs for less than $10k. In China it cost me $80. Likewise we mounted chips to non-traditional media like credit cards with no sweat. Any chip we wanted was available through HQB or TaoBao when Digikey was still backed up on Covid. Test fixtures (the laser cut jigs that you program and test pcbs) are $100. Stateside they were half as useful and $2000. You’re one blue Buick minivan ride from Guanzhou where all the garments in the world are made. Being at the intersection of these two cities is a strategic advantage. Cost of living is cheap. It will make you a better engineer by exposing you to the dirty business of manufacturing first hand. I'll go so bombastically hyperbolic and say not moving to Shenzhen as an EE is like not moving to Nashville as an aspiring country musician. In China the saying goes “anything is possible, nothing is easy.” I’d mostly agree with this but also point out that price is completely-orthogonal-to-possible in China, absolutely not in the US, and straight up forbidden in Germany. [1] https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/breadboard-electronics/104108 https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/breadboard-electronics/1... [2] https://twitter.com/pmg/status/1248148053795540992/photo/1 https://twitter.com/pmg/status/1248148053795540992/photo/1 p.s. If you enjoyed this comment, you may also enjoy my "So you want to start a factory?" reply on a post from a few days ago [3] [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001222 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40001222
• eternityforest 2y ago
  Can you find a way to reduce the iteration itself? I've never done wearables, but last time I did a product there was almost zero iteration. There were updated versions with easier DFM, but nothing like the iterative process I'm used to with software. I feel like something might be slightly wrong here. Are you iterating because you haven't finalized the core innovative tech? Can you develop that first, on breadboards or with lab bench equipment? Are you iterating because of minor aesthetic tweaks? Can you just make one PCB with LEDs in all the places you might want them, turn off the unneeded ones in software, then leave them out of the final BOM? Are there just straight up mistakes, that could be fixed with slower iteration? Maybe it's just that I've never quite made it to the level of career success where there's a budget and time for this kind of iteration, but I still think something could improve.
  • tonyarkles 2y ago
    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The only board I’ve ever worked on that required lots of iteration was a board for a client that could not manage to nail down requirements. We did 16 “iterations” but only fabbed 5 of them because he would often come up with new requirements before the PCBA had even started assembling the previous one. Lots of cancelling orders and resubmitting with assurances each time that “this is it, no more changes”.
• quanto 2y ago
  There are many good common sense answers in this thread: parallelize the runs, use faster (but more expensive) local runs, have a better model (physical or digital) to reduce the runs. To answer your specific question, Shenzhen is a good place to work on hardware, but it is not like you just fly in, and people start building for you. Your own lead time (establishing yourself there) will likely be in weeks if not months. This is from my personal experience in Shenzhen and other hardware founders'. If you want to build the prototype faster, identifying the bottleneck is a great start. Which takes most time? For up to medium complexity, PCB fab (the board itself) is the most time-consuming part. Anything more complex, it could be the SMT assembly. Each part of the entire process can be optimized: PCB fab can be done in-house quick (chemical etching, CNC machining, etc). Assembly can be optimized too (solder reflow oven, solder paste stencils, etc) on a small scale. I would estimate a batch of 5 boards of 50 SMT components each can be produced under 8 active engineer-hours. That's your entire prototype in a work day. Do you have professional/academic training in electrical engineering? EE is no less complex than CS, and perhaps studying up the entire process will help you identify what's possible and what's the bottleneck.
  • HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    > 5 boards of 50 SMT components each can be produced under 8 active engineer-hours Far less! That's about how many boards of similar complexity I could hand-stuff and reflow in an hour!
• toybuilder 2y ago
  A lot of folks are missing OP's point about making wearable tech. Flex in the US is just not fast or affordable. There's no reason for it to be (from the fabricator's standpoint). OTOH, most of the stuff can be and should be prototyped on standard rigid boards. For standard 2L rigid boards: If you work in 1-week cycles, you can usually send a PCB out on Thursday or Friday and have it in your hand on Monday or Tuesday to assemble and test. About $40-$100 per round. If that's not fast enough, a domestic fab shop that can do 1 day turn on bare boards for not terrible pricing - about $150-$200 per round (unless you can will-call at the dock). 2 or 3 day with soldermask/silkscreen will probably be around $300-$500 per round. Prices are rough estimates off the top of my memory from the shops I've used.
• Snoozus 2y ago
  Why are the lead times so long? Is it the shipping? If you're worried about operating in China another option would be to move closer the shenzhen. Kuala Lumpur has cheap rent, good infrastructure and overnight shipping to shenzhen should be possible. Similarly Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan,Singapore and so on are easier to operate in while being closer to the "source". Definetly go and visit Shanzhen first though.
• jononor 2y ago
  PCBway does 1-2 weeks to Europe, US should be similar? EuroCircuits in Netherlands will do 4-5 working day to Europe.