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I was Alex (my name is not Alex). Graduated high school in 97, but with a 2.1 GPA (yeah, pretty bad). Went to community college while working part time, living

I was Alex (my name is not Alex). Graduated high school in 97, but with a 2.1 GPA (yeah, pretty bad). Went to community college while working part time, living in a 'separated' household (mom/dad did the splits), supported both my parents both emotionally and financially (as much as I could) through their transition and new living arrangements. We were all immigrants, and still learning the ropes in this wonderful country. I did not graduate college, but instead went the part-time/apprenticeship/gain-experience route, while going through many roles. My baseline was to be a good citizen. A good son, a good partner, good friend, good husband and a good dad (4 wonderful kids). There were many good times, but also sad times, including when we lost our house and cars (2008), and that month when we literally didn't have money for food... but this country gives you many opportunities. There are safety nets, use them! You just have to focus on the goal: Move forward! There is always someone else who needs more help than you. Stay the course, and try not to lose perspective. I'm one of the luckiest people alive because I live in this country, and was always able to surround myself with supportive, positive and forward thinkers. I don't know why I shared this. Maybe because I don't care to blame society for my adverse experiences. Through those experiences, I learned to lead. I learned to listen. I learned to value and appreciate. I learned to live.

sneak 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position
ciupicri 2y ago
Are you talking about USA? What safety nets are available in the US? P.S. It's just a question. Not everyone lives in the US. Heck, maybe the OP was even talking about another country, say Denmark.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  Earned Income Tax Credit, Supplemental Security Income, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, the Child Care and Development Fund, housing assistance, Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Program, Special Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program for Women, Infants and Children
  - macintux 2y ago
    Those safety nets have huge gaps. The government doesn't want to be accused of harboring freeloaders (or, perhaps more accurately, a significant chunk of the population would rather people be homeless than a few "welfare queens" be permitted to cheat the system), so many who are genuinely in need can't get it.
    - petesergeant 2y ago
      That’s true of most rich countries. The big difference between the US and most rich countries is universal healthcare.
      - Ozzie_osman 2y ago
        That is a very, very big difference.
        petesergeant 2y ago
        It is, although it disproportionately affects people who are poor but not broke. If you’re truly broke, there’s Medicaid, if you’re old there’s Medicare, 4% by some form of military healthcare, many people covered by their employers, and so on. 90% of Americans are insured. As a Britisher, obviously I’m in favour of universal healthcare, and I think the US system would benefit from it. But let’s not pretend it’s perfect there either
        autoexec 2y ago
        > f you’re truly broke, there’s Medicaid Which you still might not qualify for, and may not get even if you do qualify for it (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/15/john-oliver-medicaid https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/15/john-ol...) > 90% of Americans are insured. Which doesn't prevent nearly 40% of americans from being forced to put off needed medical care because of the expense they're still subjected to. (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/americans-put-off-health-care-because-of-cost-how-you-can-save.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/americans-put-off-health-car...) Medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy.
- gfiorav 2y ago
  It doesn't shock me that there's anti-US propaganda. It shocks me that people on this site routinely fall for it.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    I think it’s more that we routinely see very poor and mentally ill people in the US get zero support? It’s not a great stretch to go from there to assume they don’t have any social security at all. If it’s available but many people cannot or do not know to make use of it, is it really social security? If they do make use of it and it’s still not enough, does that change things?
    - adventured 2y ago
      It's a nation of ~360-370 million people including undocumented. Have you seen the horrific conditions the poorest people of Europe 'survive' in? The ghettos of Eastern Europe are every bit as bad as the worst areas of Baltimore or St Louis. The bad areas in and around Paris are hyper minority poverty with zero upward mobility and extreme unemployment problems (thus the annual large riots). People in rural Western Russia live in third world conditions on $20-$30 per month; they live like nothing has improved in a century. To say nothing of the Ukraine war, which is now part of their living condition (for Ukraine and Russia). You realize how poor Moldova or North Macedonia are? The level of education and outcomes among the bottom 20% of Europe is every bit as bad as the bottom 20% in the US. It's exceptionally difficult to provide a median (or median+) first world outcome to so many, perhaps impossible.
      - robocat 2y ago
        Not sure how relevant it is to compare the poor in the USA to the poor in Europe. The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most European Nations: https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/ https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-ric... Although averages are a dangerous measure to use and I guess the article is wrong for other reasons (I think it is talking about consumption). The study and article are in response to the crazy OECD poverty measurements: "OECD measure assigns a higher poverty rate to the US (17.8 percent) than to Mexico (16.6 percent). Yet World Bank data show that 35 percent of Mexico’s population lives on less than $5.50 per day, compared to only 2 percent of people in the United States." I'm in New Zealand, where we have some social support for the unfortunate. Disclaimer: I'm very ignorant of conditions for the poor in the US and Europe.
- kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  Rather than looking at USA as Scandinavian county, imagine living in some of the counties in the global south. The competition for good jobs is so intense that you’ll work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. You won’t miss work if you’re sick or have a family event because then somebody else gets your job. Culturally second chances don’t exist, and you’re the only chance your children have to get through school (because you have to pay for it) and for your parents to retire in peace (because they live with you and you care for them). Heaven forbid you get sick. There’s barely a regulatory system for doctors. The doctor takes your temperature but wasn’t trained to sanitize the thermometer correctly. You are now double sick and don’t have somewhere safe to isolate because your rented home has 2 rooms and no ability to ventilate. Your family is now sick, and your children’s school has no mercy for missing class. The children have to compete in complicated exams to even have the sliver of a chance to land themselves in a good university. Otherwise, they’re just gonna live in your footsteps. Oh and don’t take out a loan, because when you do and somehow your entire contact list lands in your lenders hands, every contact on the list will hear about your debt for the next several months. I’m just demonstrating here but this is an example of the stressful life many people around the world are living. We are blessed to be in the USA.
  - ciupicri 2y ago
    There are no doubt way worse places than the US. I was under the impressions that Americans work hard too. For example, if I'm not mistaking there's no mandated minimum number of vacation days, so you might get only 11 compared to 20 in most European countries. > Heaven forbid you get sick. The medical act is (very) good in the US, but is it affordable? > The children have to compete in complicated exams to even have the sliver of a chance to land themselves in a good university. Doesn't the same apply to the US as well? You either have lots of money, or good grades or you're good athlete.
    - vladgur 2y ago
      > The medical act is (very) good in the US, but is it affordable? The answer is....it depends. If youre at poverty levels you would qualify for federal-level Medicaid insurance. learning about these benefits takes some digging. Some states(often democrat) provide their omedical benefit coverage for people who are at or below poverty line(which is itself a locale-specific metric). If youre upper-middle-class or work for the government, you have good medical insurance through your employer or by paying $$$$$ out of pocket. Anything between these two -- youre probably underserved in terms of medical coverage and you probably only see the inside of hospitals via emergency rooms.
Aeolun 2y ago
I guess what we learn from this is that not everyone is as enterprising as you? While on some level I’d say that, of course you can do it if you want to. There’s many people for whom that is just too much of a leap, and it feels unfair to say they don’t deserve happiness just because they can’t make themselves seek it.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  > it feels unfair to say they don’t deserve happiness just because they can’t make themselves seek it While I’d agree, you’ve read the OP’s comment in a significantly darker light than I did, or than I can get the text to support
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Ah, I wasn’t necessarily trying to imply anything about OP’s post. Just that what worked for him might not work for many others. I’m still happy to hear he did ;)
    - noisy_boy 2y ago
      I think I agree on your take. Mental strength in people in adverse conditions is not the rule, it is the exception. Most won't have enough of it to overcome the difficulties and will instead fall prey to easy traps like drugs etc. It is easy for most of us, who have managed well enough to be commenting here which probably implies a baseline amount of mental strength, to take the shining examples and think that these examples are universal tools of motivation. To a person that is dealing with the deep-seated problems we are talking about, that could be, indeed, motivation but also could feel like we are mocking them or trivializing their struggles. Only you can feel your toothache, me saying other people experience it and get over it, doesn't lower your pain (obviously this is a scale and this analogy isn't universal).
      - komali2 2y ago
        A lot of cozy people underestimate the willpower challenge of poverty. I meet so many tech bros that victim blame. "the mom working two jobs has at least an hour at night. She can use that time to take free coding classes, teach herself to code, upskill and get a high paying programming job. It's not easy but it's possible." Some variation of that said to me so many times. "my family grew up poor and I figured it out! My dad came to this country with five dollars in his pocket etc etc." I think one or two were telling the truth from all angles. Most were telling the truth as they knew it, but didn't realize that the fact that their parents were able to afford a house in the good school district already gave them a significant leg up, or other random privileges they have over others. But what everyone seems to overestimate is their own willpower when they aren't just working many hours - which many of us on this forum are used to from startup life - but working for those hours for 7$ or less per hour, while facing humiliation and depredation every day at however many jobs being worked (by customers, by managers), looking to the future and seeing nothing but this 7$ an hour, watching your meagre savings always get nuked at just the right moment by a blown head gasket or the landlord raising rent or the kid needing unexpected school supplies because they forgot their backpack at the bus stop or whatever else. The psychological burden of a hopeless situation is enormous. I wish I could help more people understand that and empathize with people in these situations. In the richest country on earth I don't understand why we tolerate people having to live like that, out of some cultish dedication to nonexistent meritocracy.
Generous8030 2y ago
This is an interesting perspective that I very much agree with (also being an immigrant), I feel there is this constant bashing on the country, and for what I can tell (at least in my circle), is citizens most of the time. I have found the US to be the easiest place to make it (and by far) of any other that I have been to, but they rather remove any ounce of responsibility from their own citizens for... their own doing.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > I have found the US to be the easiest place to make it (and by far) of any other that I have been to, but they rather remove any ounce of responsibility from their own citizens I'm willing to bet - dollars to donuts - that there were (and are) American investors in your country of origin, and every other one you've been to. Sometimes being an outsider confers clarity / skills / experience necessary to exploit opportunities not available - or even visible to those who've lived all their lives in an environment.
  - parentheses 2y ago
    While you may be right, I feel the dynamic is more about the fact that most expats tend to be more educated than the average. If someone willingly moved to a country where limited opportunity exists, that may not apply to them since they're better equipped for it. This is especially true if you consider Indians or Chinese in America. Those populations have an even more acute education lead. So many people want to come here, that to commit means accepting you spend the next 15 or so years waiting in line to finally be a permanent resident (rather than an immigrant who can easily be forced to leave if their visa doesn't have a sponsor.)
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      > While you may be right, I feel the dynamic is more about the fact that most expats tend to be more educated than the average That's my point exactly! It's not that all Americans are particularly entitled, lazy, uncreative, or risk-averse. I specifically chose American investors in their country of origin as a counterpoint to the implication that Americanness infers lack of grit/drive, doubly so when Americans can succeed the countries OP left. Voluntary migrants (that includes expats) are a self-selected, self-motivated bunch. OP is did not contrasting themself to the appropriate percentile of Americans.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Thank you for saying this. I spent a few years living outside the USA and it helped me deeply understand the positivity and opportunity life in USA can offer. It’s a special thing and I hope we can keep it that way for many decades to come
purple_ferret 2y ago
Your story rubs me the wrong way. For one, you say you had to financially support your parents, but then insinuate that people highlighted in the article should bootstrap themselves up since America is such a great place. Also being an immigrant doesn't make it 'high risk.' In many areas, belonging to an immigrant community might actually confer an advantage. The point of the article is to think about how adverse childhood experiences might affect adulthood, using actual data, and try to think about an actionable way to address the issue. Maybe stuff like this is behind USA's secret sauce compared to other countries where the 'unfortunate' are left to rot.
- rottc0dd 2y ago
  Not implying anything regarding OPs comment other than perspectives is greatly influenced by where you come from. From: https://collabfund.com/blog/immutable-truths-and-arguing-fools/ https://collabfund.com/blog/immutable-truths-and-arguing-foo... > This is so foreign to the world I know. But so is my world to them. I think they’re wrong, but they’d say the same to me. I’m sure I’m right; so are they. Often the reason debates arise is that you double down on your view after learning that opposing views exist. > Here’s another. > Former New York Times columnist David Pogue once did a story about harsh working conditions at Foxconn tech assembly factories in China. A reader sent him a response: >> My aunt worked several years in what Americans call “sweat shops.” It was hard work. Long hours, “small” wage, “poor” working conditions. Do you know what my aunt did before she worked in one of these factories? She was a prostitute. >> Circumstances of birth are unfortunately random, and she was born in a very rural region. Most jobs were agricultural and family owned, and most of the jobs were held by men. Women and young girls, because of lack of educational and economic opportunities, had to find other “employment.” >> The idea of working in a “sweat shop” compared to that old lifestyle is an improvement, in my opinion. I know that my aunt would rather be “exploited” by an evil capitalist boss for a couple of dollars than have her body be exploited by several men for pennies. >> That is why I am upset by many Americans’ thinking. We do not have the same opportunities as the West. Our governmental infrastructure is different. The country is different. >> Yes, factory is hard labor. Could it be better? Yes, but only when you compare such to American jobs. >> If Americans truly care about Asian welfare, they would know that shutting down “sweat shops” would force many of us to return to rural regions and return to truly despicable “jobs.” And I fear that forcing factories to pay higher wages would mean they hire FEWER workers, not more.
parentheses 2y ago
I agree. I find it hilarious when Americans complain about America. Most have no clue how good they have it.
- autoexec 2y ago
  I'd bet that most do, but also know that America could be better and want it to be better. No one has to be ignorant about what is good in order to see what needs improving.
- komali2 2y ago
  Why is it funny to want to make our country better? Do you believe it's impossible for America to more wisely spend its wealth? Do you believe Americans have it as good as is possible, considering how rich the nation is? I find this silly, because I can simply point at our education and healthcare outcomes to find two readily improvable conditions. Or, our child hunger rates.
  - theonething 2y ago
    > Why is it funny to want to make our country better? If the complainers had that attitude, I wouldn't mind at all and would endorse it. It's the whiners that have nothing more creative to say than how terrible America is that get me.
    - komali2 2y ago
      Isn't the first step to problem solving, identifying the problems? What you perceive as whining may be people trying to wake Americans up to the issues in the country, since "America best" propaganda is incredibly widespread. I have plenty of friends back in Texas that believe the existence of the Houston Medical Center means America has the best health outcomes in the world. It does, for cancer, for a certain income class... but mostly, it has some of the worst in many categories among developed nations. As an example of the blindspot many Americans have.
stkdump 2y ago
That is great to read and I genuinely believe everyone with such adverse experiences will be better off if they lived their life with this attitude. It is also a healthy attitude to focus on what one can control, which is how they choose to think of their situation and act in it. We should not forget though that at the same time the system in place will also produce people that face live with the same attitude and do all the same things, but with much less success. Now the big question is, if we can have a system that does a similar job in encouraging your type of attitude while at the same time helping those out better, for whom it doesn't work out as much. Or are these things mutually exclusive. There is a guy who cofounded a successful company and sold it. When asked if he would retire, his answer is no. Not because he isn't ready for retirement. Not because he wants to continue working or be even more successful. Because he has kids to put through college. Even successful people are not free of financial worry. I wonder if all this success if fueled by constant adrenaline, no matter if it helps the individual or not. And if yes, if there is a better way.
ascorbic 2y ago
That's great, and I'm genuinely glad to hear you've done well, but your story in no way negates the data in the article. It's not claiming that nobody coming from an adverse childhood succeeeds - just that it's a lot harder. Your post is a great example of survivorship bias. I doubt that there are many people in poverty who post to HN.
- waihtis 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - demondemidi 2y ago
    That is not what the person said, you are unfairly mischaracterizing the reply because you obviously did not understand it. I agree with the poster that it is great that person succeeded but I think the Op is rather crass to spend a hundred words describing how they succeed with literally no explanation. Which safety nets? What did he/she do to overcome? Feels more like BS without some details about the important parts.
  - xeyownt 2y ago
    Nope. The point is that one story doesn't compensate the result of an experience over 1000 stories.
  - ascorbic 2y ago
    I'm suggesting nothing of the sort, and it's disingenuous to suggest I did. I'm just saying that him being one of the purple group in his cohort doesn't in any way contradict the fact that that group is smaller than among people with easier childhoods.
    - waihtis 2y ago
      That was obvious from the main article, and you had zero reason to rub it in Alex’s face except some sort of pervasive need to discredit his achievements because he didnt succumb to playing the role of a perpetual victim.
- 2y ago
trudycharles 2y ago
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sneak 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position

ciupicri 2y ago

Are you talking about USA? What safety nets are available in the US? P.S. It's just a question. Not everyone lives in the US. Heck, maybe the OP was even talking about another country, say Denmark.

petesergeant 2y ago
Earned Income Tax Credit, Supplemental Security Income, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, the Child Care and Development Fund, housing assistance, Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Program, Special Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program for Women, Infants and Children
- macintux 2y ago
  Those safety nets have huge gaps. The government doesn't want to be accused of harboring freeloaders (or, perhaps more accurately, a significant chunk of the population would rather people be homeless than a few "welfare queens" be permitted to cheat the system), so many who are genuinely in need can't get it.
  - petesergeant 2y ago
    That’s true of most rich countries. The big difference between the US and most rich countries is universal healthcare.
    - Ozzie_osman 2y ago
      That is a very, very big difference.
      - petesergeant 2y ago
        It is, although it disproportionately affects people who are poor but not broke. If you’re truly broke, there’s Medicaid, if you’re old there’s Medicare, 4% by some form of military healthcare, many people covered by their employers, and so on. 90% of Americans are insured. As a Britisher, obviously I’m in favour of universal healthcare, and I think the US system would benefit from it. But let’s not pretend it’s perfect there either
        autoexec 2y ago
        > f you’re truly broke, there’s Medicaid Which you still might not qualify for, and may not get even if you do qualify for it (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/15/john-oliver-medicaid https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/15/john-ol...) > 90% of Americans are insured. Which doesn't prevent nearly 40% of americans from being forced to put off needed medical care because of the expense they're still subjected to. (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/americans-put-off-health-care-because-of-cost-how-you-can-save.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/americans-put-off-health-car...) Medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy.
gfiorav 2y ago
It doesn't shock me that there's anti-US propaganda. It shocks me that people on this site routinely fall for it.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  I think it’s more that we routinely see very poor and mentally ill people in the US get zero support? It’s not a great stretch to go from there to assume they don’t have any social security at all. If it’s available but many people cannot or do not know to make use of it, is it really social security? If they do make use of it and it’s still not enough, does that change things?
  - adventured 2y ago
    It's a nation of ~360-370 million people including undocumented. Have you seen the horrific conditions the poorest people of Europe 'survive' in? The ghettos of Eastern Europe are every bit as bad as the worst areas of Baltimore or St Louis. The bad areas in and around Paris are hyper minority poverty with zero upward mobility and extreme unemployment problems (thus the annual large riots). People in rural Western Russia live in third world conditions on $20-$30 per month; they live like nothing has improved in a century. To say nothing of the Ukraine war, which is now part of their living condition (for Ukraine and Russia). You realize how poor Moldova or North Macedonia are? The level of education and outcomes among the bottom 20% of Europe is every bit as bad as the bottom 20% in the US. It's exceptionally difficult to provide a median (or median+) first world outcome to so many, perhaps impossible.
    - robocat 2y ago
      Not sure how relevant it is to compare the poor in the USA to the poor in Europe. The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most European Nations: https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/ https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-ric... Although averages are a dangerous measure to use and I guess the article is wrong for other reasons (I think it is talking about consumption). The study and article are in response to the crazy OECD poverty measurements: "OECD measure assigns a higher poverty rate to the US (17.8 percent) than to Mexico (16.6 percent). Yet World Bank data show that 35 percent of Mexico’s population lives on less than $5.50 per day, compared to only 2 percent of people in the United States." I'm in New Zealand, where we have some social support for the unfortunate. Disclaimer: I'm very ignorant of conditions for the poor in the US and Europe.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Rather than looking at USA as Scandinavian county, imagine living in some of the counties in the global south. The competition for good jobs is so intense that you’ll work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. You won’t miss work if you’re sick or have a family event because then somebody else gets your job. Culturally second chances don’t exist, and you’re the only chance your children have to get through school (because you have to pay for it) and for your parents to retire in peace (because they live with you and you care for them). Heaven forbid you get sick. There’s barely a regulatory system for doctors. The doctor takes your temperature but wasn’t trained to sanitize the thermometer correctly. You are now double sick and don’t have somewhere safe to isolate because your rented home has 2 rooms and no ability to ventilate. Your family is now sick, and your children’s school has no mercy for missing class. The children have to compete in complicated exams to even have the sliver of a chance to land themselves in a good university. Otherwise, they’re just gonna live in your footsteps. Oh and don’t take out a loan, because when you do and somehow your entire contact list lands in your lenders hands, every contact on the list will hear about your debt for the next several months. I’m just demonstrating here but this is an example of the stressful life many people around the world are living. We are blessed to be in the USA.
- ciupicri 2y ago
  There are no doubt way worse places than the US. I was under the impressions that Americans work hard too. For example, if I'm not mistaking there's no mandated minimum number of vacation days, so you might get only 11 compared to 20 in most European countries. > Heaven forbid you get sick. The medical act is (very) good in the US, but is it affordable? > The children have to compete in complicated exams to even have the sliver of a chance to land themselves in a good university. Doesn't the same apply to the US as well? You either have lots of money, or good grades or you're good athlete.
  - vladgur 2y ago
    > The medical act is (very) good in the US, but is it affordable? The answer is....it depends. If youre at poverty levels you would qualify for federal-level Medicaid insurance. learning about these benefits takes some digging. Some states(often democrat) provide their omedical benefit coverage for people who are at or below poverty line(which is itself a locale-specific metric). If youre upper-middle-class or work for the government, you have good medical insurance through your employer or by paying $$$$$ out of pocket. Anything between these two -- youre probably underserved in terms of medical coverage and you probably only see the inside of hospitals via emergency rooms.

Aeolun 2y ago

I guess what we learn from this is that not everyone is as enterprising as you? While on some level I’d say that, of course you can do it if you want to. There’s many people for whom that is just too much of a leap, and it feels unfair to say they don’t deserve happiness just because they can’t make themselves seek it.

petesergeant 2y ago
> it feels unfair to say they don’t deserve happiness just because they can’t make themselves seek it While I’d agree, you’ve read the OP’s comment in a significantly darker light than I did, or than I can get the text to support
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Ah, I wasn’t necessarily trying to imply anything about OP’s post. Just that what worked for him might not work for many others. I’m still happy to hear he did ;)
  - noisy_boy 2y ago
    I think I agree on your take. Mental strength in people in adverse conditions is not the rule, it is the exception. Most won't have enough of it to overcome the difficulties and will instead fall prey to easy traps like drugs etc. It is easy for most of us, who have managed well enough to be commenting here which probably implies a baseline amount of mental strength, to take the shining examples and think that these examples are universal tools of motivation. To a person that is dealing with the deep-seated problems we are talking about, that could be, indeed, motivation but also could feel like we are mocking them or trivializing their struggles. Only you can feel your toothache, me saying other people experience it and get over it, doesn't lower your pain (obviously this is a scale and this analogy isn't universal).
    - komali2 2y ago
      A lot of cozy people underestimate the willpower challenge of poverty. I meet so many tech bros that victim blame. "the mom working two jobs has at least an hour at night. She can use that time to take free coding classes, teach herself to code, upskill and get a high paying programming job. It's not easy but it's possible." Some variation of that said to me so many times. "my family grew up poor and I figured it out! My dad came to this country with five dollars in his pocket etc etc." I think one or two were telling the truth from all angles. Most were telling the truth as they knew it, but didn't realize that the fact that their parents were able to afford a house in the good school district already gave them a significant leg up, or other random privileges they have over others. But what everyone seems to overestimate is their own willpower when they aren't just working many hours - which many of us on this forum are used to from startup life - but working for those hours for 7$ or less per hour, while facing humiliation and depredation every day at however many jobs being worked (by customers, by managers), looking to the future and seeing nothing but this 7$ an hour, watching your meagre savings always get nuked at just the right moment by a blown head gasket or the landlord raising rent or the kid needing unexpected school supplies because they forgot their backpack at the bus stop or whatever else. The psychological burden of a hopeless situation is enormous. I wish I could help more people understand that and empathize with people in these situations. In the richest country on earth I don't understand why we tolerate people having to live like that, out of some cultish dedication to nonexistent meritocracy.

Generous8030 2y ago

This is an interesting perspective that I very much agree with (also being an immigrant), I feel there is this constant bashing on the country, and for what I can tell (at least in my circle), is citizens most of the time. I have found the US to be the easiest place to make it (and by far) of any other that I have been to, but they rather remove any ounce of responsibility from their own citizens for... their own doing.

sangnoir 2y ago
> I have found the US to be the easiest place to make it (and by far) of any other that I have been to, but they rather remove any ounce of responsibility from their own citizens I'm willing to bet - dollars to donuts - that there were (and are) American investors in your country of origin, and every other one you've been to. Sometimes being an outsider confers clarity / skills / experience necessary to exploit opportunities not available - or even visible to those who've lived all their lives in an environment.
- parentheses 2y ago
  While you may be right, I feel the dynamic is more about the fact that most expats tend to be more educated than the average. If someone willingly moved to a country where limited opportunity exists, that may not apply to them since they're better equipped for it. This is especially true if you consider Indians or Chinese in America. Those populations have an even more acute education lead. So many people want to come here, that to commit means accepting you spend the next 15 or so years waiting in line to finally be a permanent resident (rather than an immigrant who can easily be forced to leave if their visa doesn't have a sponsor.)
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    > While you may be right, I feel the dynamic is more about the fact that most expats tend to be more educated than the average That's my point exactly! It's not that all Americans are particularly entitled, lazy, uncreative, or risk-averse. I specifically chose American investors in their country of origin as a counterpoint to the implication that Americanness infers lack of grit/drive, doubly so when Americans can succeed the countries OP left. Voluntary migrants (that includes expats) are a self-selected, self-motivated bunch. OP is did not contrasting themself to the appropriate percentile of Americans.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

Thank you for saying this. I spent a few years living outside the USA and it helped me deeply understand the positivity and opportunity life in USA can offer. It’s a special thing and I hope we can keep it that way for many decades to come

purple_ferret 2y ago

Your story rubs me the wrong way. For one, you say you had to financially support your parents, but then insinuate that people highlighted in the article should bootstrap themselves up since America is such a great place. Also being an immigrant doesn't make it 'high risk.' In many areas, belonging to an immigrant community might actually confer an advantage. The point of the article is to think about how adverse childhood experiences might affect adulthood, using actual data, and try to think about an actionable way to address the issue. Maybe stuff like this is behind USA's secret sauce compared to other countries where the 'unfortunate' are left to rot.

rottc0dd 2y ago
Not implying anything regarding OPs comment other than perspectives is greatly influenced by where you come from. From: https://collabfund.com/blog/immutable-truths-and-arguing-fools/ https://collabfund.com/blog/immutable-truths-and-arguing-foo... > This is so foreign to the world I know. But so is my world to them. I think they’re wrong, but they’d say the same to me. I’m sure I’m right; so are they. Often the reason debates arise is that you double down on your view after learning that opposing views exist. > Here’s another. > Former New York Times columnist David Pogue once did a story about harsh working conditions at Foxconn tech assembly factories in China. A reader sent him a response: >> My aunt worked several years in what Americans call “sweat shops.” It was hard work. Long hours, “small” wage, “poor” working conditions. Do you know what my aunt did before she worked in one of these factories? She was a prostitute. >> Circumstances of birth are unfortunately random, and she was born in a very rural region. Most jobs were agricultural and family owned, and most of the jobs were held by men. Women and young girls, because of lack of educational and economic opportunities, had to find other “employment.” >> The idea of working in a “sweat shop” compared to that old lifestyle is an improvement, in my opinion. I know that my aunt would rather be “exploited” by an evil capitalist boss for a couple of dollars than have her body be exploited by several men for pennies. >> That is why I am upset by many Americans’ thinking. We do not have the same opportunities as the West. Our governmental infrastructure is different. The country is different. >> Yes, factory is hard labor. Could it be better? Yes, but only when you compare such to American jobs. >> If Americans truly care about Asian welfare, they would know that shutting down “sweat shops” would force many of us to return to rural regions and return to truly despicable “jobs.” And I fear that forcing factories to pay higher wages would mean they hire FEWER workers, not more.

parentheses 2y ago

I agree. I find it hilarious when Americans complain about America. Most have no clue how good they have it.

autoexec 2y ago
I'd bet that most do, but also know that America could be better and want it to be better. No one has to be ignorant about what is good in order to see what needs improving.
komali2 2y ago
Why is it funny to want to make our country better? Do you believe it's impossible for America to more wisely spend its wealth? Do you believe Americans have it as good as is possible, considering how rich the nation is? I find this silly, because I can simply point at our education and healthcare outcomes to find two readily improvable conditions. Or, our child hunger rates.
- theonething 2y ago
  > Why is it funny to want to make our country better? If the complainers had that attitude, I wouldn't mind at all and would endorse it. It's the whiners that have nothing more creative to say than how terrible America is that get me.
  - komali2 2y ago
    Isn't the first step to problem solving, identifying the problems? What you perceive as whining may be people trying to wake Americans up to the issues in the country, since "America best" propaganda is incredibly widespread. I have plenty of friends back in Texas that believe the existence of the Houston Medical Center means America has the best health outcomes in the world. It does, for cancer, for a certain income class... but mostly, it has some of the worst in many categories among developed nations. As an example of the blindspot many Americans have.

stkdump 2y ago

That is great to read and I genuinely believe everyone with such adverse experiences will be better off if they lived their life with this attitude. It is also a healthy attitude to focus on what one can control, which is how they choose to think of their situation and act in it. We should not forget though that at the same time the system in place will also produce people that face live with the same attitude and do all the same things, but with much less success. Now the big question is, if we can have a system that does a similar job in encouraging your type of attitude while at the same time helping those out better, for whom it doesn't work out as much. Or are these things mutually exclusive. There is a guy who cofounded a successful company and sold it. When asked if he would retire, his answer is no. Not because he isn't ready for retirement. Not because he wants to continue working or be even more successful. Because he has kids to put through college. Even successful people are not free of financial worry. I wonder if all this success if fueled by constant adrenaline, no matter if it helps the individual or not. And if yes, if there is a better way.

ascorbic 2y ago

That's great, and I'm genuinely glad to hear you've done well, but your story in no way negates the data in the article. It's not claiming that nobody coming from an adverse childhood succeeeds - just that it's a lot harder. Your post is a great example of survivorship bias. I doubt that there are many people in poverty who post to HN.

waihtis 2y ago
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- demondemidi 2y ago
  That is not what the person said, you are unfairly mischaracterizing the reply because you obviously did not understand it. I agree with the poster that it is great that person succeeded but I think the Op is rather crass to spend a hundred words describing how they succeed with literally no explanation. Which safety nets? What did he/she do to overcome? Feels more like BS without some details about the important parts.
- xeyownt 2y ago
  Nope. The point is that one story doesn't compensate the result of an experience over 1000 stories.
- ascorbic 2y ago
  I'm suggesting nothing of the sort, and it's disingenuous to suggest I did. I'm just saying that him being one of the purple group in his cohort doesn't in any way contradict the fact that that group is smaller than among people with easier childhoods.
  - waihtis 2y ago
    That was obvious from the main article, and you had zero reason to rub it in Alex’s face except some sort of pervasive need to discredit his achievements because he didnt succumb to playing the role of a perpetual victim.
2y ago

trudycharles 2y ago

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