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The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in

by Afton 2y ago

The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. I'll leave it to my children on how it turned out in my 30s. Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate, which is a really critical ability when dealing with the 4th day of 3 hours of sleep and a colicky baby (for example). Also no point. But honestly, if you want people to have kids earlier, you need to make them think that their life won't be bleak if they do.

quantified 2y ago
Few are really prepared to have kids, until they have their second kid. Everyone I know who had kids shortly after college (which skews the parents a bit economically, I know, but not necessarily emotionally or in maturity) had great family lives and outcomes.
myko 2y ago
I am so glad I waited until my late 30s to have a kid. It sucks not being as physically capable as I would've been, but being calmer and more understanding I think is a big help in child rearing.
jwells89 2y ago
Not a parent, but I feel the same about myself. Having a kid at 22 would’ve been a mess to say the least. Looking back at that age halfway through my 30s, at that point I wasn’t much more than an overgrown 16 year old that could legally walk into a bar who wouldn’t get his head screwed on quite right for another 6 years or so at minimum.
- ein0p 2y ago
  As someone who had his first kid at 23, you grow up real quick once you become a parent. Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. Or to really understand their own parents for that matter.
  - ddsf 2y ago
    I often see people settled into being more financially responsible, and it's good. But not in term of personality maturity.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    I was 24 and still in college. This thread is full of people saying "I was a mess" or "I wasn't mature enough". When we found out we were pregnant, I was working at a gas station, my off hours spent riding around in a truck with my friends yelling things at people walking by on the street for reactions. There's maturity and stability. Now I'm "ahead" of many of those friends because I knew I needed to hurry up and get things done. Didn't have time to rage quit jobs. Didn't have time to sit around and make less because it was easier. So I agree with you. It tells me a lot about being responsible and mature. Most won't until they have to, and a kid has that effect.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      What really cracks me up is that people have this expectation that they’ll ever be “ready” to have kids. Not going to happen. The whole thing reminds me of the first few minutes of “Idiocracy”.
  - digging 2y ago
    > Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. This is my favorite of the lies parents tell, it's so obviously nonsensical
    - ein0p 2y ago
      I take it you don't have kids.
- pixl97 2y ago
  I think a potential problem (depending on ones point of view) is that when parents wait till they are responsible they tend to have one, maybe two kids, which is below replacement rate. When coupled with things like costs, you end up with a rapidly shrinking population.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    Cost and support networks are both big factors here. 30-somethings are probably more likely to have replacement rate or more if it’s affordable to do so and there’s family/friends around to lend a hand, but few enjoy such circumstances. Things like remote work could’ve helped here, allowing couples to live near family instead of wherever the best employment prospects exist currently, but the RTO push prevented that.
    - tuatoru 2y ago
      The (lack of) social prestige for pregnancy and motherhood among UMC women is a bigger factor. Women have been indoctrinated to place career first and only. Try saying "soccer mom" with an admiring tone instead of a sneer if you want to understand this.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Is it possible women could want financial independence without being indoctrinated? Or are they incapable of desiring power over their own lives, perhaps unlike men?
        carlosjobim 2y ago
        Of course a lot of people would like financial independence. Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, because they are indebted or renters. They have to work a salary job or be out on the streets. A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband than most working young people have today, even though they get fancy titles now. Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances.
- em-bee 2y ago
  the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and there was always someone nearby to help and to show us how things are done. oh, and going with the theme of the article, great-grandpa from my wifes side was still around, but my son does not remember him now. and as my dad was the youngest of 7 kids, i just barely remember his parents.
  - rodgerd 2y ago
    > the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.
    - aidenn0 2y ago
      This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare
        BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        What about crappy parents?
- Al-Khwarizmi 2y ago
  Yeah, same here. I don't think I was mature enough to have a kid at 22, apart from the fact that I was still studying, and when I started working I had low salary and needed to work long hours to fight for job stability in a competitive sector. However, it would likely have worked at 30, and reading through all this makes me think that it would have been better than waiting until 36 as I did. Easier said (especially in retrospective) than done, though.
munificent 2y ago
It's complicated. It's definitely true that we're less mature in our 20s than we are in our 30s. But, also, maturity doesn't just accumulate on us like growth rings. You can easily be a completely immature thirty-something if you don't have the kind of challenging life experiences that cause maturity. Probably the number one life experience that increases maturity is having kids. If you'd had kids younger, you would have grown up faster too and earned some of the maturity needed to raise them well earlier. Of course, there's an obvious counter-argument that no one should deliberately have children as a tool for their own person growth. That's fair. But it's also reality than you can never be fully prepared for any situation until you're in it. Sometimes you just have to accept that live is one long improv scene and do your best. I'm not saying anyone should have kids early, or at all. But I think there's pernicious, unhealthy meme in our culture today that says kids deserve perfect parents and therefore no one should have children until they're perfectly prepared, but that's just an impossible bar.
- BirAdam 2y ago
  A very close friend of mine was murdered at 18, his sister was a year younger and she matured very quickly as a result of this experience. She’s now in her early 20s and you’d assume she’s 35 by her personality and view points.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    I wonder if you’d mind sharing some examples of her viewpoints? It’s not obvious to me what sort of maturity a sibling murder would induce. She moved to the suburbs already?
- nyokodo 2y ago
  > no one should deliberately have children as a tool for their own person growth I’m not suggesting you’re saying this, but there seems to be an idea floating around that any motivation to have children that incorporates your own good is evil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anticipating and desiring an ancillary benefit to having children or from any other relationship for that matter. Yes, if it’s your primary goal then that is cold and inhuman since children have a right to exist and be loved and cared for for their own sake, and they and other people do not exist merely to sate your desires. However, the fact that they also sate one’s good and ordered needs and desires and that those are part of the equation of forming relationships and having children is perfectly natural and an unavoidable human experience across cultures and times.
r00fus 2y ago
> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. You see, in a proper early childrearing situation, you would be a) near your parents and inlaws ideally b) they would share in the burden of child-rearing. We had kids later in life (33-ish) and I think if I were to do it again, I'd have moved quicker to having kids earlier (waited 2 years to marry and 3 years before having first kid). More and more people are living closer to their parents - which opens up this possibility.
- bradlys 2y ago
  A lot of this assumes so many things that I think people who were born and raised in stable UMC (like most on HN) take for granted. Even if I lived close to the family I was born into, I would never let them get near my children. The years of neglect and child abuse are reason enough that they should never see them - let alone be caregivers. Similarly, you’re assuming that your marriage would have gone smoothly still and so would the childbearing if you hadn’t waited. I was with someone for five years and we never got legally married. We talked a lot about kids and marriage. I still felt like we had years to go before we were ready for marriage and kids. We separated over financial differences once it became clear they were never going to resolve. Imagine we had ignored our intuitions and married and had kids based on arbitrary deadlines? It would have been terrible. The differences wouldn’t have solved themselves with marriage or kids - we would’ve gone separate ways and both would experience truly insane hardship due to such poor decisions. Living near people who can take care of your kids sounds lovely if you grew up where all the jobs are. Not uncommon for many SV types here who grew up in Palo Alto and such but it’s farfetched for so many more. We need better regulations to give better paid leave and lower the cost of housing so I’m not homeless when my spouse decides to stop working to take care of the kids.
  - r00fus 2y ago
    I'm not denying your experiences - I was reasoning using my own. I did not have a typical upbringing - I'm felt like an outsider and went to a different school for like 7 years in a row. Clearly your circumstances dictated your options. Nowadays, in this truly oligarchic economy, most young people simply don't feel they'll ever be able to afford a home or family either (which is a massive regression). Perhaps the future means - you raise your family in your parents house (with their help)... if you trust your parents. Agreed about better support for families and housing.
crimsontech 2y ago
I had my first daughter when I was 20 and grew up very quickly, I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. She is an adult now and I couldn’t be any prouder of all she has achieved in life so far. I also had two more kids in my 30s. It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I do have more work responsibilities but it’s balanced by working from home so I get to be a big part of their lives, taking them to school, here when they get home, etc. There are benefits either way, but I think if you are committed to being a decent parent, having them younger has more benefits in the long term. You get to be around for more of lives too.
- serf 2y ago
  >I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. the problem of course being that some individuals never hit upon that realization -- and the statistics regarding the matter make it look like that revelation is more likely to come to an individual who is older, financially secure, and mentally well. > It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I'm a second child with after a large age-gap. My brother was born when my mother was 16, I was born twenty years later. My parents routinely told me how much harder it was with my brother -- lack of cash and profession, the party lifestyle that comes with youth and college-life, constant moving for opportunity and cheaper housing, and an overall lack of time to dedicate to the kid due to the instability and struggle to keep afloat financially. I was born at a time of great stability for them. They had professions, they could make their own schedules. They had time to participate in my schooling and extracurricular stuff. I had good food, good toys, good clothing, and a stable house. They let me voice my decisions because they had the time and freedom to consider options other than pure survival. I was told that I was the 'easy' one -- not because of my personality but because "The 70s sucked.", which is code for "We were young, poor, un-established and struggling." So, after the anecdote I feel compelled to ask : Why do you think it is harder when you're older? You have more money, you have the power of flexibility within your scheduling that allows for participation in your childrens' growth and development -- is it simply a 'strength of youth' kind of thing? I have no kids, I have no plans for them, so I ask just as a curiosity. The opinion varies wildly from person to person, and I think it's fascinating what kind of 'diversity of parenting' exists.
bgroat 2y ago
Everyone's life is completely different, and their choices are their own. It seems you made the right choice for yourself, and I hope your kids agree. I will say though, I think there's a chicken and egg element in this line of thinking. A part of my thinks that being childless in twenties provides space that facilitates being a basket-case. I think that having a child immediately makes most people at least 50% more responsible, and 85%+ within a year. Again, there's a huge range here for people who: - Never get better - Their 85%+ still isn't really responsible enough. Unsolicited 2 cents from a guy who had a kid in his twenties
- Piskvorrr 2y ago
  To borrow terms from RFC 2119, "having a child makes people more responsible" is a SHOULD, but statistically, turns out to be a MAY. (#survivorBias: people are likely to acknowledge this, if they did turn out to actually be more responsible - "turned out GREAT for ME", emphasis added. The other case, not so much.) However, I feel like the age of a parent is a factor, sure - but it's not an overwhelming factor...
dheera 2y ago
Emotional maturity is important, but there's also financial readiness. People don't have extended families and villages to be nannies-on-demand anymore, so older parents have a lot more financial resources to raise kids and more likely to give the kid a comfortable life. Especially when housing prices have gone up much faster than salaries in the past 30 years, and that is reflected not only in one's own mortgage/rent but also that you have to indirectly pay the rent increases of every Chipotle worker you interact with.
ip26 2y ago
I think the optimal strategy depends partly on your genes. Challenging kids seem to run in families, and it’s probably easier to succeed as a very young parent if your kids are naturally the quiet & obedient sort. It’s not politically correct, but we all know a few little hellions, and they are obviously difficult to parent.
rayiner 2y ago
> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. How common is it that people are incompetent to raise kids in their 20s, versus people who may not presently have everything together because nobody expects anything from or depends on them?
- brabel 2y ago
  Great point. Most people are perfectly capable of raising to the occasion, but while there's no occasion they just stay in the comfort of their responsibility-free lives... I say, enjoy it while it lasts!
jimbokun 2y ago
Interesting how until recently people in their early 20s were perfectly capable of raising children, but today they’re not.
- pooper 2y ago
  They just didn't know any better. The whole idea that everyone has to have children is frankly asinine. I want people to have fewer children. I want fewer people to have children. I want nobody to have more than two children. The whole idea that population must grow and keep growing is silly. It is ok for the population to shrink a little.
  - mycologos 2y ago
    > I want nobody to have more than two children. > It is ok for the population to shrink a little. The first idea is way more extreme than the second idea.
    - yaomtc 2y ago
      They didn't say "Nobody should be allowed to have more than two children". They simply have an opinion that people shouldn't, purposefully, have more than two children. Seems reasonable to me.
      - pooper 2y ago
        Yes, thank you. I'm not Mao. People should choose to have either no children Or ideally one or two children And not no children. Ideally, we as a society should support people who choose to have one or two children, prioritizing these families over people who have half a dozen or more children. But that's because in my opinion people who have dozens of children have something wrong in their heads. If you choose to have a dozen children, you better be able to afford to raise them all on your own dime. That being said, I really dislike means testing of any kind so I'd be ok with a social safety net for the wackos and their unfortunate children.
  - 2y ago
samtheprogram 2y ago
I think a lot of these “20s” lessons and better emotional regulation you learn before the child is old enough to remember, i.e. by your late twenties. Although, I think going through that learning process + raising a baby + recently newly wed is a contributing factor to divorce.
shiroiushi 2y ago
>The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. ... Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate,... This is exactly why I don't think anyone should have children until they're at least 50 years old, and better yet 75-100. We just need to solve this "aging" disease problem first. 20-somethings just aren't emotionally mature enough to be good parents.
- rglullis 2y ago
  And somehow we've done it through hundreds of generations. > just need to solve this "aging" disease. Oh, please stop. This is the rhetoric of stunted men with Peter Pan syndrome. If you are too scared to face this type of responsibility, plenty of other men rose to the occasion just fine.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >If you are too scared to face this type of responsibility, plenty of other men rose to the occasion just fine. According to the most recent fertility statistics, they're not.
    - rglullis 2y ago
      You are trying to make a point against old values using "most recent statistics". Do you realize how illogical this is?
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        You seem to not be living in the real world, instead pining for "old values" which obviously not many people still live by.
        rglullis 2y ago
        Your "solution" to the problem that adults now are claiming to be unable to become parents is, literally, "cure aging". Mine is "accept that you can not do it on your own and have them at a age where your parents can still help you." The fact that people are forgetting these "old values" is what is bringing to this unsustainable state, and instead of accepting the reality of our limited lifespans and that people have managed to start having kids in the early 20's (or before that) for centuries just fine, you want to double down on the idea that "no one should have kids before their 50s"? Who is "not living in the real world"?
kingkawn 2y ago
It is arguable that the increased emotional regulation of older parents is responsible for the higher incidence of adhd as the kids have to fill the emotional void
navane 2y ago
I'm sure you could handle nights with little sleep fine in your early twenties. Being up all night. Dealing with childish drama. Vomit.

by Afton 2y ago

quantified 2y ago

Few are really prepared to have kids, until they have their second kid. Everyone I know who had kids shortly after college (which skews the parents a bit economically, I know, but not necessarily emotionally or in maturity) had great family lives and outcomes.

myko 2y ago

I am so glad I waited until my late 30s to have a kid. It sucks not being as physically capable as I would've been, but being calmer and more understanding I think is a big help in child rearing.

jwells89 2y ago

Not a parent, but I feel the same about myself. Having a kid at 22 would’ve been a mess to say the least. Looking back at that age halfway through my 30s, at that point I wasn’t much more than an overgrown 16 year old that could legally walk into a bar who wouldn’t get his head screwed on quite right for another 6 years or so at minimum.

ein0p 2y ago
As someone who had his first kid at 23, you grow up real quick once you become a parent. Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. Or to really understand their own parents for that matter.
- ddsf 2y ago
  I often see people settled into being more financially responsible, and it's good. But not in term of personality maturity.
- doubled112 2y ago
  I was 24 and still in college. This thread is full of people saying "I was a mess" or "I wasn't mature enough". When we found out we were pregnant, I was working at a gas station, my off hours spent riding around in a truck with my friends yelling things at people walking by on the street for reactions. There's maturity and stability. Now I'm "ahead" of many of those friends because I knew I needed to hurry up and get things done. Didn't have time to rage quit jobs. Didn't have time to sit around and make less because it was easier. So I agree with you. It tells me a lot about being responsible and mature. Most won't until they have to, and a kid has that effect.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    What really cracks me up is that people have this expectation that they’ll ever be “ready” to have kids. Not going to happen. The whole thing reminds me of the first few minutes of “Idiocracy”.
- digging 2y ago
  > Moreover I doubt it’s even possible for a person to fully mature if they don’t have kids. This is my favorite of the lies parents tell, it's so obviously nonsensical
  - ein0p 2y ago
    I take it you don't have kids.
pixl97 2y ago
I think a potential problem (depending on ones point of view) is that when parents wait till they are responsible they tend to have one, maybe two kids, which is below replacement rate. When coupled with things like costs, you end up with a rapidly shrinking population.
- jwells89 2y ago
  Cost and support networks are both big factors here. 30-somethings are probably more likely to have replacement rate or more if it’s affordable to do so and there’s family/friends around to lend a hand, but few enjoy such circumstances. Things like remote work could’ve helped here, allowing couples to live near family instead of wherever the best employment prospects exist currently, but the RTO push prevented that.
  - tuatoru 2y ago
    The (lack of) social prestige for pregnancy and motherhood among UMC women is a bigger factor. Women have been indoctrinated to place career first and only. Try saying "soccer mom" with an admiring tone instead of a sneer if you want to understand this.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Is it possible women could want financial independence without being indoctrinated? Or are they incapable of desiring power over their own lives, perhaps unlike men?
      - carlosjobim 2y ago
        Of course a lot of people would like financial independence. Young working women (and men) of today normally have almost no financial independence, because they are indebted or renters. They have to work a salary job or be out on the streets. A stay at home mother in the past with a part time job had much more financial independence together with her husband than most working young people have today, even though they get fancy titles now. Basically the current elderly generation used indoctrination to turn their children into serfs in some kind of foolish attempt to end humanity. Also to remember is that traditionally in most cultures, the wife in the family controlled the household's finances.
em-bee 2y ago
the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. when our first was born we moved to live a few km from the grandparents, and there was always someone nearby to help and to show us how things are done. oh, and going with the theme of the article, great-grandpa from my wifes side was still around, but my son does not remember him now. and as my dad was the youngest of 7 kids, i just barely remember his parents.
- rodgerd 2y ago
  > the component that is getting lost in our culture, which in other cultures is still more present is that grandparents play an active role in helping the young parents to raise their children. in chinese culture for example the young couple moves in with the husbands parents, and so grandparents are always around to give advice and help. That's great if the grandparents are good people. Not so much if they aren't.
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    This retort is true of literally everything involved in raising kids. Substitute "parents" "preschool teachers" "sports coach" &c. for "grandparents" in the sentence and it's still true for the domain for the children. It's true that with grandparents you have a maximum of 4 to choose from, but you might not have more than 4 preschools to choose from either.
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      Arguably you can chose other teachers and coaches and daycare
      - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        What about crappy parents?
Al-Khwarizmi 2y ago
Yeah, same here. I don't think I was mature enough to have a kid at 22, apart from the fact that I was still studying, and when I started working I had low salary and needed to work long hours to fight for job stability in a competitive sector. However, it would likely have worked at 30, and reading through all this makes me think that it would have been better than waiting until 36 as I did. Easier said (especially in retrospective) than done, though.

munificent 2y ago

It's complicated. It's definitely true that we're less mature in our 20s than we are in our 30s. But, also, maturity doesn't just accumulate on us like growth rings. You can easily be a completely immature thirty-something if you don't have the kind of challenging life experiences that cause maturity. Probably the number one life experience that increases maturity is having kids. If you'd had kids younger, you would have grown up faster too and earned some of the maturity needed to raise them well earlier. Of course, there's an obvious counter-argument that no one should deliberately have children as a tool for their own person growth. That's fair. But it's also reality than you can never be fully prepared for any situation until you're in it. Sometimes you just have to accept that live is one long improv scene and do your best. I'm not saying anyone should have kids early, or at all. But I think there's pernicious, unhealthy meme in our culture today that says kids deserve perfect parents and therefore no one should have children until they're perfectly prepared, but that's just an impossible bar.

BirAdam 2y ago
A very close friend of mine was murdered at 18, his sister was a year younger and she matured very quickly as a result of this experience. She’s now in her early 20s and you’d assume she’s 35 by her personality and view points.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  I wonder if you’d mind sharing some examples of her viewpoints? It’s not obvious to me what sort of maturity a sibling murder would induce. She moved to the suburbs already?
nyokodo 2y ago
> no one should deliberately have children as a tool for their own person growth I’m not suggesting you’re saying this, but there seems to be an idea floating around that any motivation to have children that incorporates your own good is evil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anticipating and desiring an ancillary benefit to having children or from any other relationship for that matter. Yes, if it’s your primary goal then that is cold and inhuman since children have a right to exist and be loved and cared for for their own sake, and they and other people do not exist merely to sate your desires. However, the fact that they also sate one’s good and ordered needs and desires and that those are part of the equation of forming relationships and having children is perfectly natural and an unavoidable human experience across cultures and times.

r00fus 2y ago

> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. You see, in a proper early childrearing situation, you would be a) near your parents and inlaws ideally b) they would share in the burden of child-rearing. We had kids later in life (33-ish) and I think if I were to do it again, I'd have moved quicker to having kids earlier (waited 2 years to marry and 3 years before having first kid). More and more people are living closer to their parents - which opens up this possibility.

bradlys 2y ago
A lot of this assumes so many things that I think people who were born and raised in stable UMC (like most on HN) take for granted. Even if I lived close to the family I was born into, I would never let them get near my children. The years of neglect and child abuse are reason enough that they should never see them - let alone be caregivers. Similarly, you’re assuming that your marriage would have gone smoothly still and so would the childbearing if you hadn’t waited. I was with someone for five years and we never got legally married. We talked a lot about kids and marriage. I still felt like we had years to go before we were ready for marriage and kids. We separated over financial differences once it became clear they were never going to resolve. Imagine we had ignored our intuitions and married and had kids based on arbitrary deadlines? It would have been terrible. The differences wouldn’t have solved themselves with marriage or kids - we would’ve gone separate ways and both would experience truly insane hardship due to such poor decisions. Living near people who can take care of your kids sounds lovely if you grew up where all the jobs are. Not uncommon for many SV types here who grew up in Palo Alto and such but it’s farfetched for so many more. We need better regulations to give better paid leave and lower the cost of housing so I’m not homeless when my spouse decides to stop working to take care of the kids.
- r00fus 2y ago
  I'm not denying your experiences - I was reasoning using my own. I did not have a typical upbringing - I'm felt like an outsider and went to a different school for like 7 years in a row. Clearly your circumstances dictated your options. Nowadays, in this truly oligarchic economy, most young people simply don't feel they'll ever be able to afford a home or family either (which is a massive regression). Perhaps the future means - you raise your family in your parents house (with their help)... if you trust your parents. Agreed about better support for families and housing.

crimsontech 2y ago

I had my first daughter when I was 20 and grew up very quickly, I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. She is an adult now and I couldn’t be any prouder of all she has achieved in life so far. I also had two more kids in my 30s. It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I do have more work responsibilities but it’s balanced by working from home so I get to be a big part of their lives, taking them to school, here when they get home, etc. There are benefits either way, but I think if you are committed to being a decent parent, having them younger has more benefits in the long term. You get to be around for more of lives too.

serf 2y ago
>I can distinctly remember it hitting me like a bus that I was now wholly responsible for a human. the problem of course being that some individuals never hit upon that realization -- and the statistics regarding the matter make it look like that revelation is more likely to come to an individual who is older, financially secure, and mentally well. > It’s harder when you are older, but I’m financially better off so they can have things I couldn’t afford in my 20s. I'm a second child with after a large age-gap. My brother was born when my mother was 16, I was born twenty years later. My parents routinely told me how much harder it was with my brother -- lack of cash and profession, the party lifestyle that comes with youth and college-life, constant moving for opportunity and cheaper housing, and an overall lack of time to dedicate to the kid due to the instability and struggle to keep afloat financially. I was born at a time of great stability for them. They had professions, they could make their own schedules. They had time to participate in my schooling and extracurricular stuff. I had good food, good toys, good clothing, and a stable house. They let me voice my decisions because they had the time and freedom to consider options other than pure survival. I was told that I was the 'easy' one -- not because of my personality but because "The 70s sucked.", which is code for "We were young, poor, un-established and struggling." So, after the anecdote I feel compelled to ask : Why do you think it is harder when you're older? You have more money, you have the power of flexibility within your scheduling that allows for participation in your childrens' growth and development -- is it simply a 'strength of youth' kind of thing? I have no kids, I have no plans for them, so I ask just as a curiosity. The opinion varies wildly from person to person, and I think it's fascinating what kind of 'diversity of parenting' exists.

bgroat 2y ago

Everyone's life is completely different, and their choices are their own. It seems you made the right choice for yourself, and I hope your kids agree. I will say though, I think there's a chicken and egg element in this line of thinking. A part of my thinks that being childless in twenties provides space that facilitates being a basket-case. I think that having a child immediately makes most people at least 50% more responsible, and 85%+ within a year. Again, there's a huge range here for people who: - Never get better - Their 85%+ still isn't really responsible enough. Unsolicited 2 cents from a guy who had a kid in his twenties

Piskvorrr 2y ago
To borrow terms from RFC 2119, "having a child makes people more responsible" is a SHOULD, but statistically, turns out to be a MAY. (#survivorBias: people are likely to acknowledge this, if they did turn out to actually be more responsible - "turned out GREAT for ME", emphasis added. The other case, not so much.) However, I feel like the age of a parent is a factor, sure - but it's not an overwhelming factor...

dheera 2y ago

Emotional maturity is important, but there's also financial readiness. People don't have extended families and villages to be nannies-on-demand anymore, so older parents have a lot more financial resources to raise kids and more likely to give the kid a comfortable life. Especially when housing prices have gone up much faster than salaries in the past 30 years, and that is reflected not only in one's own mortgage/rent but also that you have to indirectly pay the rent increases of every Chipotle worker you interact with.

ip26 2y ago

I think the optimal strategy depends partly on your genes. Challenging kids seem to run in families, and it’s probably easier to succeed as a very young parent if your kids are naturally the quiet & obedient sort. It’s not politically correct, but we all know a few little hellions, and they are obviously difficult to parent.

rayiner 2y ago

> The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. How common is it that people are incompetent to raise kids in their 20s, versus people who may not presently have everything together because nobody expects anything from or depends on them?

brabel 2y ago
Great point. Most people are perfectly capable of raising to the occasion, but while there's no occasion they just stay in the comfort of their responsibility-free lives... I say, enjoy it while it lasts!

jimbokun 2y ago

Interesting how until recently people in their early 20s were perfectly capable of raising children, but today they’re not.

pooper 2y ago
They just didn't know any better. The whole idea that everyone has to have children is frankly asinine. I want people to have fewer children. I want fewer people to have children. I want nobody to have more than two children. The whole idea that population must grow and keep growing is silly. It is ok for the population to shrink a little.
- mycologos 2y ago
  > I want nobody to have more than two children. > It is ok for the population to shrink a little. The first idea is way more extreme than the second idea.
  - yaomtc 2y ago
    They didn't say "Nobody should be allowed to have more than two children". They simply have an opinion that people shouldn't, purposefully, have more than two children. Seems reasonable to me.
    - pooper 2y ago
      Yes, thank you. I'm not Mao. People should choose to have either no children Or ideally one or two children And not no children. Ideally, we as a society should support people who choose to have one or two children, prioritizing these families over people who have half a dozen or more children. But that's because in my opinion people who have dozens of children have something wrong in their heads. If you choose to have a dozen children, you better be able to afford to raise them all on your own dime. That being said, I really dislike means testing of any kind so I'd be ok with a social safety net for the wackos and their unfortunate children.
- 2y ago

samtheprogram 2y ago

I think a lot of these “20s” lessons and better emotional regulation you learn before the child is old enough to remember, i.e. by your late twenties. Although, I think going through that learning process + raising a baby + recently newly wed is a contributing factor to divorce.

shiroiushi 2y ago

>The upside is that I was a total basket case in my 20s, completely incompetent to be able to raise a child. ... Generally I'd expect older adults to have done a lot more maturing and increased ability to emotionally regulate,... This is exactly why I don't think anyone should have children until they're at least 50 years old, and better yet 75-100. We just need to solve this "aging" disease problem first. 20-somethings just aren't emotionally mature enough to be good parents.

rglullis 2y ago
And somehow we've done it through hundreds of generations. > just need to solve this "aging" disease. Oh, please stop. This is the rhetoric of stunted men with Peter Pan syndrome. If you are too scared to face this type of responsibility, plenty of other men rose to the occasion just fine.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >If you are too scared to face this type of responsibility, plenty of other men rose to the occasion just fine. According to the most recent fertility statistics, they're not.
  - rglullis 2y ago
    You are trying to make a point against old values using "most recent statistics". Do you realize how illogical this is?
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      You seem to not be living in the real world, instead pining for "old values" which obviously not many people still live by.
      - rglullis 2y ago
        Your "solution" to the problem that adults now are claiming to be unable to become parents is, literally, "cure aging". Mine is "accept that you can not do it on your own and have them at a age where your parents can still help you." The fact that people are forgetting these "old values" is what is bringing to this unsustainable state, and instead of accepting the reality of our limited lifespans and that people have managed to start having kids in the early 20's (or before that) for centuries just fine, you want to double down on the idea that "no one should have kids before their 50s"? Who is "not living in the real world"?

kingkawn 2y ago

It is arguable that the increased emotional regulation of older parents is responsible for the higher incidence of adhd as the kids have to fill the emotional void

navane 2y ago

I'm sure you could handle nights with little sleep fine in your early twenties. Being up all night. Dealing with childish drama. Vomit.