8 ms·

it doesnt seem like `the market` will fix this abhorrent use of plastic for packaging and other fast moving consumer goods. This is where states have to interfe

it doesnt seem like `the market` will fix this abhorrent use of plastic for packaging and other fast moving consumer goods. This is where states have to interfere and ban plastic usage. How can it be allowed to package 80g of food (like ham, cheese etc.) that has a shelf-life of max. 14 days in 10g+ of plastic that will be around for hundreds of years? If you go to any super market there is no consumer choice but to buy most of your food wrapped in plastic, amounting to kilos of plastic per family and month :(

BenFranklin100 2y ago
This seems like an appropriate place for the government to step in and price negative externalities in the form of taxes. Taxes are effective as bans but they better handle edge cases where plastic may still be required for whatever reason.
- sph 2y ago
  Where do you account for lobbying from the oil industry and corruption?
sph 2y ago
In a perfect world where governments are competent, I would love a law stating that packaging must not last more than 10x times the shelf life of the product itself. Ham expires after 3 days? Put it in packaging that lasts no more than 30 days when left outside.
- peteradio 2y ago
  Something that only lasts 30 days is going to partially start breaking down on day 1, I don't think people want that touching their meat.
  - logtempo 2y ago
    Adjust the variable in consequence, we're talking about a fictional material. You're using a strawman there, just to be in contradiction.
  - sph 2y ago
    Just brainstorming here: anything temperature-based? Starts degrading above 10C for example. In your fridge it's no problem, chuck it out of the window like a savage and it will eventually degrade, unless you live on the poles. Sounds like a good avenue for (organic) material science research.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Does something like that exist? Can something like that exist? don't forget it needs to be food safe - including whatever it breaks down to, and whatever bacteria might grow on it - so long as the food itself is safe to eat. Materials science has come a long way, but some problems still are not solved and it isn't always clear if the problem can be solved.
      - BurningFrog 2y ago
        Water ice fits the description, but it's hard to see how that would be practical.
        sph 2y ago
        We need Ice 9: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine
  - Projectiboga 2y ago
    Ok 100, or 500, both way below the hundreds of years they now last.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      You know, this is simply not true. I have found old buried plastic bags, from supermarkets - I remember the bag style from just a few years ago. The bags had severely degraded. When I tried to pick one up, it fell apart into small pieces, what integrity it had was gone. I've had the same experience with bags left in lofts - they degrade. From my personal experience, I therefore assume that plastics already disintegrate after about 10 years, not 100 or 500 years, as you state.
      - hombre_fatal 2y ago
        You're just talking about a bag degrading into smaller and smaller plastic particles (microplastics) while the people above are talking about biodegrading into natural elements.
        verisimi 2y ago
        You think I'm unfair in comparing a plastic bag to plastic packaging? If you follow this particular thread, they were talking about packaging.
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        No, you're just confusing macroscopic level of degradation (the whole structure degrades) and microscopic degradation (molecules are being degraded). The problem with plastic is that while the macroscopic structure can be altered in just a few years (depending on the conditions), the resulting parts aren't being metabolized away by micro-organisms and they remain as small plastic chunks, and then micro-plastic, then nano plastic, until they eventually break down entirely after decades, which is very unlike what happens with what we call biodegradable materials.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > In a perfect world where governments are competent Yet the general consensus seems to be that in a perfect world governments are democratic, and therefore beholden to the will of the people, not authoritarian like you suggest. But if the will of the people wants to see a change in the use of plastic, they don't need it to flow through government, they can simply change their buying habits.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    You cannot buy something that doesn't exist or is otherwise unavailable. And good packaging materials rarely make for good marketing.
    - randomdata 2y ago
      > You cannot buy something that doesn't exist or is otherwise unavailable. Of course you can. Facilitating such a thing is Kickstarter's entire business model, as an example. You can also refrain from buying, communicating to other people that "I'm not buying your product unless you..." which gives really strong incentive to do things differently. It's not like government is some kind of magical thing. It's just people. And in the case of democratic government, it's the very same people.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        > You can also refrain from buying Day 56 after I refrained from buying food: I'm now dead.
        randomdata 2y ago
        If only the people had chosen to enact a law that made it illegal to sell you food packaged in harmful packaging that you had already decided not to buy. I mean, you'd still be dead, but you'd have 56 days of satisfaction knowing that your voice was heard.
  - comicjk 2y ago
- zik 2y ago
  "Last no more than 30 days" with currently available degradable plastics just means it breaks down into microplastics really quickly and pollutes the environment with them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sargun 2y ago
I can see this playing out in one of two ways: 1. Suddenly shelf lives are massively extended. I think this would be a good thing. 2. Shelf lives are decreased to accommodate degradable packaging. Given the people who are in the food supply chain are probably going to be sourcing the same packaging from maybe 2-3 vendors, I don’t see anyone able to differentiate themselves on packaging tech.
- fy20 2y ago
  > shelf lives are massively extended. I think this would be a good thing. 50 years ago many fruits and vegetables had a lot shorter shelf life, however that has been greatly extended due to selected breeding. For example tomatoes used to have a shelf life of around 3 days, but now it's 3 weeks or more. The disadvantage of this is that now there are a few varieties that dominate what you can buy in supermarkets, and they are optimized for economic features. This means other features like taste and nutrient content are a lot worse than it was 50 years ago.
verisimi 2y ago
> If you go to any super market there is no consumer choice but to buy most of your food wrapped in plastic, amounting to kilos of plastic per family and month This is corporations 'socialising' the expense of their decisions via writing laws. Why should they pay?
megaman821 2y ago
I am seeing lots of problems with your argument here: * One, the amount of carbon that get wasted if that sandwich goes bad is immense compared to the small amount of carbon it takes to make the plastic. * Two, in places with decent waste management, what is wrong with the plastic sitting in a landfill. * Three, assuming you are still going to protect food items, the alternatives are all heavier materials that will increase transportation costs and pollution.

BenFranklin100 2y ago

This seems like an appropriate place for the government to step in and price negative externalities in the form of taxes. Taxes are effective as bans but they better handle edge cases where plastic may still be required for whatever reason.

sph 2y ago
Where do you account for lobbying from the oil industry and corruption?

sph 2y ago

In a perfect world where governments are competent, I would love a law stating that packaging must not last more than 10x times the shelf life of the product itself. Ham expires after 3 days? Put it in packaging that lasts no more than 30 days when left outside.

peteradio 2y ago
Something that only lasts 30 days is going to partially start breaking down on day 1, I don't think people want that touching their meat.
- logtempo 2y ago
  Adjust the variable in consequence, we're talking about a fictional material. You're using a strawman there, just to be in contradiction.
- sph 2y ago
  Just brainstorming here: anything temperature-based? Starts degrading above 10C for example. In your fridge it's no problem, chuck it out of the window like a savage and it will eventually degrade, unless you live on the poles. Sounds like a good avenue for (organic) material science research.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Does something like that exist? Can something like that exist? don't forget it needs to be food safe - including whatever it breaks down to, and whatever bacteria might grow on it - so long as the food itself is safe to eat. Materials science has come a long way, but some problems still are not solved and it isn't always clear if the problem can be solved.
    - BurningFrog 2y ago
      Water ice fits the description, but it's hard to see how that would be practical.
      - sph 2y ago
        We need Ice 9: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine
- Projectiboga 2y ago
  Ok 100, or 500, both way below the hundreds of years they now last.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    You know, this is simply not true. I have found old buried plastic bags, from supermarkets - I remember the bag style from just a few years ago. The bags had severely degraded. When I tried to pick one up, it fell apart into small pieces, what integrity it had was gone. I've had the same experience with bags left in lofts - they degrade. From my personal experience, I therefore assume that plastics already disintegrate after about 10 years, not 100 or 500 years, as you state.
    - hombre_fatal 2y ago
      You're just talking about a bag degrading into smaller and smaller plastic particles (microplastics) while the people above are talking about biodegrading into natural elements.
      - verisimi 2y ago
        You think I'm unfair in comparing a plastic bag to plastic packaging? If you follow this particular thread, they were talking about packaging.
        littlestymaar 2y ago
        No, you're just confusing macroscopic level of degradation (the whole structure degrades) and microscopic degradation (molecules are being degraded). The problem with plastic is that while the macroscopic structure can be altered in just a few years (depending on the conditions), the resulting parts aren't being metabolized away by micro-organisms and they remain as small plastic chunks, and then micro-plastic, then nano plastic, until they eventually break down entirely after decades, which is very unlike what happens with what we call biodegradable materials.
randomdata 2y ago
> In a perfect world where governments are competent Yet the general consensus seems to be that in a perfect world governments are democratic, and therefore beholden to the will of the people, not authoritarian like you suggest. But if the will of the people wants to see a change in the use of plastic, they don't need it to flow through government, they can simply change their buying habits.
- AstralStorm 2y ago
  You cannot buy something that doesn't exist or is otherwise unavailable. And good packaging materials rarely make for good marketing.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > You cannot buy something that doesn't exist or is otherwise unavailable. Of course you can. Facilitating such a thing is Kickstarter's entire business model, as an example. You can also refrain from buying, communicating to other people that "I'm not buying your product unless you..." which gives really strong incentive to do things differently. It's not like government is some kind of magical thing. It's just people. And in the case of democratic government, it's the very same people.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      > You can also refrain from buying Day 56 after I refrained from buying food: I'm now dead.
      - randomdata 2y ago
        If only the people had chosen to enact a law that made it illegal to sell you food packaged in harmful packaging that you had already decided not to buy. I mean, you'd still be dead, but you'd have 56 days of satisfaction knowing that your voice was heard.
- comicjk 2y ago
zik 2y ago
"Last no more than 30 days" with currently available degradable plastics just means it breaks down into microplastics really quickly and pollutes the environment with them.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

sargun 2y ago

I can see this playing out in one of two ways: 1. Suddenly shelf lives are massively extended. I think this would be a good thing. 2. Shelf lives are decreased to accommodate degradable packaging. Given the people who are in the food supply chain are probably going to be sourcing the same packaging from maybe 2-3 vendors, I don’t see anyone able to differentiate themselves on packaging tech.

fy20 2y ago
> shelf lives are massively extended. I think this would be a good thing. 50 years ago many fruits and vegetables had a lot shorter shelf life, however that has been greatly extended due to selected breeding. For example tomatoes used to have a shelf life of around 3 days, but now it's 3 weeks or more. The disadvantage of this is that now there are a few varieties that dominate what you can buy in supermarkets, and they are optimized for economic features. This means other features like taste and nutrient content are a lot worse than it was 50 years ago.

verisimi 2y ago

> If you go to any super market there is no consumer choice but to buy most of your food wrapped in plastic, amounting to kilos of plastic per family and month This is corporations 'socialising' the expense of their decisions via writing laws. Why should they pay?

megaman821 2y ago

I am seeing lots of problems with your argument here: * One, the amount of carbon that get wasted if that sandwich goes bad is immense compared to the small amount of carbon it takes to make the plastic. * Two, in places with decent waste management, what is wrong with the plastic sitting in a landfill. * Three, assuming you are still going to protect food items, the alternatives are all heavier materials that will increase transportation costs and pollution.