5 ms·

Of note: “ Six of the eight authors were born outside the United States; the other two are children of two green-card-carrying Germans who were temporarily in

Of note: “ Six of the eight authors were born outside the United States; the other two are children of two green-card-carrying Germans who were temporarily in California and a first-generation American whose family had fled persecution, respectively.”

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Why would that be of note, especially in America? I think it would be an interesting observation in China or Japan, or some other country which is generally less welcoming to immigrants than the US
- svnt 2y ago
  First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population. The fact that the entire team consists effectively of first generation immigrants says something, probably both about higher education and American culture.
  - bugglebeetle 2y ago
    > First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population Not in California. Last I remember, something like a quarter of the state’s population is foreign born.
    - svnt 2y ago
      It looks like you are roughly right, but still, a sampling of 8 students from this population is not likely to come up that way (by my calculation 1.4x10^-7) > All Students in Higher Education in California > 2,737,000 > First-Generation Immigrant Students > 387,000 14% are first-generation immigrants from: https://www.higheredimmigrationportal.org/state/california/ https://www.higheredimmigrationportal.org/state/california/
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      That's still a 1-in-4^8 = 1-in-65536 longshot.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        Its really not; hiring within a single firm, especially for related functions, will tend fo have correlated biases, rather than being a random sample from even the pool of qualified applicants, much less the broader population.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population. About 1/8 of the US population is foreign-born, which is a minority but not a tiny one. In California, its over a quarter.
  - 0xcafecafe 2y ago
    Isn't some of it have to do with it being a self selecting sample? If you come to America to study, you were a good student in your resident country leading to more chances of success than the average local citizen. Their children might be smarter on average. Alternatively if you are coming fleeing persecutions you are enterprising enough to set up something for your children. That hard work inculcates a sort of work ethic in such children which in turn sets them up for success. Speaking from experience as an immigrant myself.
    - svnt 2y ago
      I think all those are true, but if so the percentages of first-generation immigrants should increase as you ascend the educational pyramid. I believe it does from undergrad to Phd, but not from general population to higher education, so clearly there are at least two very different worlds. There is a motivation that comes with both trying to make it and being cognizant of the relative opportunity that is absent in the second-generation and beyond. There are also many advantages given to students outside the majority. When those advantages land not on the disadvantaged but on the advantaged-but-foreign, are they accomplishing their objectives? How bad would higher education have been in Europe? What is the objective, actually?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - pixl97 2y ago
    I think you have completely the wrong takeaway here... The US population is around 330 million. The world population is 8.1 billion people. What is that 4%? If you took a random sampling of people around the world, none of them would be Americans. You're going to need a lot more samples to find a trend. Yet when you turn around and look at success stories, a huge portion of this is going to occur in the US for multiple reasons, especially for the ability to attract intelligence from other parts of the globe and make it wealthy here.
    - svnt 2y ago
      I understand, but reality has to factor in — to get representative you would have to narrow your sample to English-speaking, narrow it to legal for long-term employment in the US, narrow it to having received at least an American-level higher education…
  - cameldrv 2y ago
    One thing is that getting a PhD is a good way to get into the U.S. As a foreigner, many visa and job opportunities open up to you with the PhD. For an American, it's less of a good deal. Once you have the PhD, you make somewhat more money, but you're trading that for 6 years of hard work and very low pay. The numbers aren't favorable -- you have to love the topic for it to make any sense. As a result, U.S. PhD programs are heavily foreign born.
    - sharadov 2y ago
      A PHD is a faster path to a green card as well - especially for people born in China and India where the green card backlog is decades long.
- quantum_state 2y ago
  The US is still the place to be, despite its problems…
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Because there are plenty of people in the US who are neither immigrants nor the children of immigrants. In fact, they're probably a significant majority. So to have 8 out of 8 be members of the smaller set is rather unlikely.
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Not when you consider that those people were pulled from a worldwide talent pool for a relatively niche topic. If you can recruit anyone you want in the world and end up with 8/8 Americans, that would be weird.
- pksebben 2y ago
  > less welcoming to immigrants than the US Not sure if we can claim this any more, what with texas shipping busloads of immigrants to NY and the mayor declaring it a citywide emergency, and both major parties rushing to get a border wall built.
  - samatman 2y ago
    Conflating illegal and legal immigration is not a useful contribution to this conversation.
    - pksebben 2y ago
      The phrasing was "welcoming to immigrants", not "welcoming to the ever shrinking definition of good immigrants established by a bunch of octogenarian plutocrats". "Illegal" is a concept - it's not conflating to assume that it's not the bedrock of the way people think.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        > "Illegal" is a concept Illegal immigrant is pretty well defined, an immigrant that didn't come through the legal means. The people hired by Google are probably not illegal immigrants.
      - samatman 2y ago
        Illegal is a status more than it is a concept. Immigrating illegally is not the central definition of immigration, any more than shoplifting is the central definition of customer. America is much more welcoming of immigration, by which I mean legal immigration, than Japan or China. This is not in dispute. It is also, in practice, quite a bit more slack about illegal immigration than either of those countries. Although I hope that changes.
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        >America is much more welcoming of immigration, by which I mean legal immigration, than Japan or China. This is not in dispute. It's not? It sounds like you know little about the world outside of America. Japan is stupidly easy to immigrate to: just get a job offer here at a place that sponsors your visa and it's pretty trivial to immigrate. Even better, if you have enough points, you can apply for permanent residence after 1 or 3 years, and the cost is trivial. In America, getting a Green Card is very difficult and costly, and depending on your national origin can be almost impossible. In Japan, there's no limits at all, per year or per country of origin, for work visas or PR. Of course, Japan is somewhat selective about who it wants to immigrate, but America is no different there, which is why there's such a huge debate about illegal immigration (in America it's not that hard; in an island country it's not so easy).
- pyb 2y ago
  With the current state of Visas for the US, most countries are now more welcoming to migrants.
bugglebeetle 2y ago
Yes, this is one of the actually admirable qualities of the US and California in particular. CA has one of the world’s largest economies because it attracts and embraces people from just about every part of the world.
laidoffamazon 2y ago
The more interesting thing to me is that only one of them went to an elite American undergrad (Duke). Rest went to undergrads in India, Ukraine, Germany, Canada (UToronto has a 43% acceptance rate).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Why would that be of note, especially in America? I think it would be an interesting observation in China or Japan, or some other country which is generally less welcoming to immigrants than the US

svnt 2y ago
First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population. The fact that the entire team consists effectively of first generation immigrants says something, probably both about higher education and American culture.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  > First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population Not in California. Last I remember, something like a quarter of the state’s population is foreign born.
  - svnt 2y ago
    It looks like you are roughly right, but still, a sampling of 8 students from this population is not likely to come up that way (by my calculation 1.4x10^-7) > All Students in Higher Education in California > 2,737,000 > First-Generation Immigrant Students > 387,000 14% are first-generation immigrants from: https://www.higheredimmigrationportal.org/state/california/ https://www.higheredimmigrationportal.org/state/california/
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    That's still a 1-in-4^8 = 1-in-65536 longshot.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      Its really not; hiring within a single firm, especially for related functions, will tend fo have correlated biases, rather than being a random sample from even the pool of qualified applicants, much less the broader population.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > First generation immigrants are still a tiny minority of the population. About 1/8 of the US population is foreign-born, which is a minority but not a tiny one. In California, its over a quarter.
- 0xcafecafe 2y ago
  Isn't some of it have to do with it being a self selecting sample? If you come to America to study, you were a good student in your resident country leading to more chances of success than the average local citizen. Their children might be smarter on average. Alternatively if you are coming fleeing persecutions you are enterprising enough to set up something for your children. That hard work inculcates a sort of work ethic in such children which in turn sets them up for success. Speaking from experience as an immigrant myself.
  - svnt 2y ago
    I think all those are true, but if so the percentages of first-generation immigrants should increase as you ascend the educational pyramid. I believe it does from undergrad to Phd, but not from general population to higher education, so clearly there are at least two very different worlds. There is a motivation that comes with both trying to make it and being cognizant of the relative opportunity that is absent in the second-generation and beyond. There are also many advantages given to students outside the majority. When those advantages land not on the disadvantaged but on the advantaged-but-foreign, are they accomplishing their objectives? How bad would higher education have been in Europe? What is the objective, actually?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pixl97 2y ago
  I think you have completely the wrong takeaway here... The US population is around 330 million. The world population is 8.1 billion people. What is that 4%? If you took a random sampling of people around the world, none of them would be Americans. You're going to need a lot more samples to find a trend. Yet when you turn around and look at success stories, a huge portion of this is going to occur in the US for multiple reasons, especially for the ability to attract intelligence from other parts of the globe and make it wealthy here.
  - svnt 2y ago
    I understand, but reality has to factor in — to get representative you would have to narrow your sample to English-speaking, narrow it to legal for long-term employment in the US, narrow it to having received at least an American-level higher education…
- cameldrv 2y ago
  One thing is that getting a PhD is a good way to get into the U.S. As a foreigner, many visa and job opportunities open up to you with the PhD. For an American, it's less of a good deal. Once you have the PhD, you make somewhat more money, but you're trading that for 6 years of hard work and very low pay. The numbers aren't favorable -- you have to love the topic for it to make any sense. As a result, U.S. PhD programs are heavily foreign born.
  - sharadov 2y ago
    A PHD is a faster path to a green card as well - especially for people born in China and India where the green card backlog is decades long.
quantum_state 2y ago
The US is still the place to be, despite its problems…
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Because there are plenty of people in the US who are neither immigrants nor the children of immigrants. In fact, they're probably a significant majority. So to have 8 out of 8 be members of the smaller set is rather unlikely.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Not when you consider that those people were pulled from a worldwide talent pool for a relatively niche topic. If you can recruit anyone you want in the world and end up with 8/8 Americans, that would be weird.
pksebben 2y ago
> less welcoming to immigrants than the US Not sure if we can claim this any more, what with texas shipping busloads of immigrants to NY and the mayor declaring it a citywide emergency, and both major parties rushing to get a border wall built.
- samatman 2y ago
  Conflating illegal and legal immigration is not a useful contribution to this conversation.
  - pksebben 2y ago
    The phrasing was "welcoming to immigrants", not "welcoming to the ever shrinking definition of good immigrants established by a bunch of octogenarian plutocrats". "Illegal" is a concept - it's not conflating to assume that it's not the bedrock of the way people think.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > "Illegal" is a concept Illegal immigrant is pretty well defined, an immigrant that didn't come through the legal means. The people hired by Google are probably not illegal immigrants.
    - samatman 2y ago
      Illegal is a status more than it is a concept. Immigrating illegally is not the central definition of immigration, any more than shoplifting is the central definition of customer. America is much more welcoming of immigration, by which I mean legal immigration, than Japan or China. This is not in dispute. It is also, in practice, quite a bit more slack about illegal immigration than either of those countries. Although I hope that changes.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        >America is much more welcoming of immigration, by which I mean legal immigration, than Japan or China. This is not in dispute. It's not? It sounds like you know little about the world outside of America. Japan is stupidly easy to immigrate to: just get a job offer here at a place that sponsors your visa and it's pretty trivial to immigrate. Even better, if you have enough points, you can apply for permanent residence after 1 or 3 years, and the cost is trivial. In America, getting a Green Card is very difficult and costly, and depending on your national origin can be almost impossible. In Japan, there's no limits at all, per year or per country of origin, for work visas or PR. Of course, Japan is somewhat selective about who it wants to immigrate, but America is no different there, which is why there's such a huge debate about illegal immigration (in America it's not that hard; in an island country it's not so easy).
pyb 2y ago
With the current state of Visas for the US, most countries are now more welcoming to migrants.

bugglebeetle 2y ago

Yes, this is one of the actually admirable qualities of the US and California in particular. CA has one of the world’s largest economies because it attracts and embraces people from just about every part of the world.

laidoffamazon 2y ago

The more interesting thing to me is that only one of them went to an elite American undergrad (Duke). Rest went to undergrads in India, Ukraine, Germany, Canada (UToronto has a 43% acceptance rate).