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It seems concerning that the US isn't able to complete basic infrastructure projects. Even if they're a little over time and budget. In other parts of the world

It seems concerning that the US isn't able to complete basic infrastructure projects. Even if they're a little over time and budget. In other parts of the world, infrastructure is getting done. Looking at how much high speed rail China has built, and operates, then you look at the USA who cannot event get a train built between to major cities it's quite crazy that this is such a struggle. I know that it's not a priority because Americans are "rich" and like cars, but something about this failure seems deeply problematic to me.

dclowd9901 3y ago
This country isn’t centered on doing big things anymore. Its core morality is “get rich as you can.” Government projects are perhaps the single best way to get there. Companies doing space travel don’t care about exploration. They care about being the ones to capitalize on space first.
- chii 3y ago
  > They care about being the ones to capitalize on space first. that's fine - because exploration is a useful side-effect of "capitalizing" space. The problem with gov't funded public works projects is that everyone involved knows it's gov't funded, and adds their own margin on top. Not to mention the land acquisition gets more expensive over time - both purely due to inflation, as well as the idea that the land owner could squeeze more juice out the later the project is in (after all, if you're the sole "hold-up", you could squeeze the gov't for your land at above market rates and they'd have to pay or lose the entire project!). It is really a result of freedom of the individuals in america (vs their gov't) compared to places like china. You don't get to overcharge for your work as a "contractor" in china - you work for the state-owned company that employs you at a fixed wage. The land is always something the gov't can just take as imminent domain, and pays you what the gov't thinks is fair compensation (which, of course, is going to be lower than market cost, as you are forced to accept it). Lastly, those "pesky" environmental reviews in the US doesn't really exist in china. At best they get rubber stamped. While the result of china's infrastructure development is definitely impressive, those who had to eat the hidden cost exist, but is powerless to stop it. Hopefully they also get to enjoy the fruits of the infrastructure, and that it outweighs the cost paid by them.
  - tomohelix 3y ago
    I look at this from another perspective. While you interpet "personal freedom" as a good thing, I see it as an indicator of weakness. Alone personal freedom isn't bad. But when used as resistance against the public good and overall progress, it is a sign that it is being misused, either by malice or incompetence, or maybe both. America won the world wars by being an industrial powerhouse who could get things built in large quantity. I think that is no longer the case. To go further, it indicates a strategic weakness in national defense. Japan's warships were technologically superior to the American's. The German tank' specs were better than the Allies. But they lost on the number games. I feel like if a fight broke out between the US and China right now, we may see the same thing happen again, except this time, the US is the one playing the "few elite" card while China has the industrial and manufacturing power to swarm us with "good enough" war engines. And history has shown twice which strategy would win a war.
    - chii 3y ago
      > to swarm us with "good enough" war engines luckily, nukes exist today, and this is no longer a volume problem. The all-out war scenario is one where humanity dies out, revert back to the stone age. In a regional conflict, such as a taiwan invasion, this might play out as you described. But then in such a regional conflict, the "elite" forces of the US is more useful imho. > But when used as resistance against the public good and overall progress There's shades of grey there, because what constitutes public good and overall progress? But you may be right that there's more middlemen these days that are just not pulling their weight for what they output. Like ticket-clipping, where they just add a margin and pass on the work down the chain, and yet contribute nothing.
jimbob45 3y ago
the US I would caution against lumping everyone else in with California. There are definitely functional states in the US that can finish projects. California, however, is not one of them.
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  Large scale projects? Give even one example. Isn’t the big dig in Boston still going on 20 years later?
  - cduzz 3y ago
    I think the only holes left from the big dig that haven't been filled are in the MBTA's budget from the imaginative financing used to make it happen. The actual physical digging and stuff is all done. And it made Boston a habitable city. https://www.boston.com/cars/untagged/2015/01/05/can-we-talk-rationally-about-the-big-dig-yet/ https://www.boston.com/cars/untagged/2015/01/05/can-we-talk-...
- rented_mule 3y ago
  How about we add Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas to the California example? The Interstate 69 project through those states has been going on for decades, and it is nowhere near completion. But I-69 doesn't get the same scrutiny. Maybe because it's about cars rather than trains?
psadri 3y ago
One definition of “rich” is how much work you can get done with the money you have. Maybe Americans are not really rich given that it takes $100B+ to build a train line? Maybe a dollar is not really worth much given that it take so much of it to do anything valuable?
- haarts 3y ago
  This is a very valid point. You can see this at play with the support of the Ukraine. Billions are being tossed around but how much 'punch' does that dollar have when it reaches the frontline? Does it even get there at all? Is 10B in American aid even close to 10B in Estonian aid?
  - david_shi 3y ago
    Zero provenance of where each aid dollar goes. Does it reach the frontline, who's pocket does it go into? And why can't we track this information (at a high level)?
    - piva00 3y ago
      It's being tracked and there's been government reports checking if the money is being siphoned to corruption and so far not much has been found (except the usual low percentage of defrauding but that happens with anything). You and I don't have access to it, it's just expected since it's sensitive information during wartime.
    - hiddencost 3y ago
      Bullshit.
ralph84 3y ago
Yes when you have no concept of private property, environmental protection, or workers rights, stuff gets done faster. Comparisons to China aren’t helpful because the US has chosen a fundamentally different path than China.
- yorwba 3y ago
  On the concept of private property, you may want to learn about "nail houses" that stick up and refuse to be hammered down to make room for new development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)#Nail_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)#Nail_hou... Pictures: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%E9%92%89%E5%AD%90%E6%88%B7&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%E9%92%89%E5%AD%90%E6%88%B7&iax=im...
  - Log_out_ 3y ago
    Eh, nail houses are usually built to extract compensation from the government. Which then sometimes is stolen by local officials who build around the property. Adv China has some videos on and in those.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
      Some of those nail houses looked rather old, so I'm having difficulties to believe they've been built for the purpose of extracting compensation from the current government.
- inference-lord 3y ago
  I'm sorry but I just don't think that's a valid enough excuse because all of the things you mentioned are part of "getting a project done". Everything you mentioned should've been done as part of a study before embarking on the project if it wasn't deemed inviable then no money should've been committed in the first place?
- panick21_ 3y ago
  If you compare these actually objectivly then things arent that clear. Great, lots of environmental laws that ... prevent a train line that is objectivly great for the envoirnment. The simple fact is, China transportation system is better for the actual environment. Worker protection, ok, US worker protection globally known for being great? If im China a train-line is built 10x as fast, then even assuming higher insure rate, the overall project might be safer. Lets talk salary. Are US workers that work on CHSR better paid relative to other jobs in the economy compared to China? Did China use ultra cheap slave labor? Can you actually show that its the actual workers who benefit from this 10x cost upgrade? Private property isnt absolute. The US can take property if required. And happly did so and still does so for highway expantion. Japan on the other hand has less ability to do it and still manage to build trains. Im not sure how exactly this works in China. But just saying 'private property' isnt actually great analysis. Can you objectivly show that people on the path of CHSR were objectivly better of then those that had property along a line in China. And even if so, how much of the cost does that actually explain. You can look at any number of statistics in regards to infrastructure spending efficency. The US does then to be very high.
rKarpinski 3y ago
> Looking at how much high speed rail China has built, and operates, then you look at the USA who cannot event get a train built between to major cities it's quite crazy that this is such a struggle. One such rail line just opened up going to my friends hometown [1]. Now instead of a 3 hour car ride from the major airport it's 45 minutes by train. The route is roughly half the distance of SF<>LA and wasn't even fully approved till 2019 [2]. [1] https://english.news.cn/20231226/ee2fd2183517440eb11427d25aeb2c6e/c.html https://english.news.cn/20231226/ee2fd2183517440eb11427d25ae... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu%E2%80%93Zigong_high-speed_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu%E2%80%93Zigong_high-sp...
monero-xmr 3y ago
There is something to say that the US gives high priority to individual rights and private property owners. A big part of why developing countries can build so quickly is by steamrolling citizens who aren't politically connected. In China, they simply force everyone to move and bulldoze huge swaths of existing real estate to build new highways and trains. I agree the pendulum is too far in the wrong direction here. But if my city told me I had to move because they were destroying my whole neighborhood to put in a new train, I would be livid - "I thought this was America!" It would take an enormous sum of money - many times over what my property is worth on paper - to make me feel properly compensated for all of the memories, sentimental value, and how much I like my neighborhood.

dclowd9901 3y ago

This country isn’t centered on doing big things anymore. Its core morality is “get rich as you can.” Government projects are perhaps the single best way to get there. Companies doing space travel don’t care about exploration. They care about being the ones to capitalize on space first.

chii 3y ago
> They care about being the ones to capitalize on space first. that's fine - because exploration is a useful side-effect of "capitalizing" space. The problem with gov't funded public works projects is that everyone involved knows it's gov't funded, and adds their own margin on top. Not to mention the land acquisition gets more expensive over time - both purely due to inflation, as well as the idea that the land owner could squeeze more juice out the later the project is in (after all, if you're the sole "hold-up", you could squeeze the gov't for your land at above market rates and they'd have to pay or lose the entire project!). It is really a result of freedom of the individuals in america (vs their gov't) compared to places like china. You don't get to overcharge for your work as a "contractor" in china - you work for the state-owned company that employs you at a fixed wage. The land is always something the gov't can just take as imminent domain, and pays you what the gov't thinks is fair compensation (which, of course, is going to be lower than market cost, as you are forced to accept it). Lastly, those "pesky" environmental reviews in the US doesn't really exist in china. At best they get rubber stamped. While the result of china's infrastructure development is definitely impressive, those who had to eat the hidden cost exist, but is powerless to stop it. Hopefully they also get to enjoy the fruits of the infrastructure, and that it outweighs the cost paid by them.
- tomohelix 3y ago
  I look at this from another perspective. While you interpet "personal freedom" as a good thing, I see it as an indicator of weakness. Alone personal freedom isn't bad. But when used as resistance against the public good and overall progress, it is a sign that it is being misused, either by malice or incompetence, or maybe both. America won the world wars by being an industrial powerhouse who could get things built in large quantity. I think that is no longer the case. To go further, it indicates a strategic weakness in national defense. Japan's warships were technologically superior to the American's. The German tank' specs were better than the Allies. But they lost on the number games. I feel like if a fight broke out between the US and China right now, we may see the same thing happen again, except this time, the US is the one playing the "few elite" card while China has the industrial and manufacturing power to swarm us with "good enough" war engines. And history has shown twice which strategy would win a war.
  - chii 3y ago
    > to swarm us with "good enough" war engines luckily, nukes exist today, and this is no longer a volume problem. The all-out war scenario is one where humanity dies out, revert back to the stone age. In a regional conflict, such as a taiwan invasion, this might play out as you described. But then in such a regional conflict, the "elite" forces of the US is more useful imho. > But when used as resistance against the public good and overall progress There's shades of grey there, because what constitutes public good and overall progress? But you may be right that there's more middlemen these days that are just not pulling their weight for what they output. Like ticket-clipping, where they just add a margin and pass on the work down the chain, and yet contribute nothing.

jimbob45 3y ago

the US I would caution against lumping everyone else in with California. There are definitely functional states in the US that can finish projects. California, however, is not one of them.

dclowd9901 3y ago
Large scale projects? Give even one example. Isn’t the big dig in Boston still going on 20 years later?
- cduzz 3y ago
  I think the only holes left from the big dig that haven't been filled are in the MBTA's budget from the imaginative financing used to make it happen. The actual physical digging and stuff is all done. And it made Boston a habitable city. https://www.boston.com/cars/untagged/2015/01/05/can-we-talk-rationally-about-the-big-dig-yet/ https://www.boston.com/cars/untagged/2015/01/05/can-we-talk-...
rented_mule 3y ago
How about we add Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas to the California example? The Interstate 69 project through those states has been going on for decades, and it is nowhere near completion. But I-69 doesn't get the same scrutiny. Maybe because it's about cars rather than trains?

psadri 3y ago

One definition of “rich” is how much work you can get done with the money you have. Maybe Americans are not really rich given that it takes $100B+ to build a train line? Maybe a dollar is not really worth much given that it take so much of it to do anything valuable?

haarts 3y ago
This is a very valid point. You can see this at play with the support of the Ukraine. Billions are being tossed around but how much 'punch' does that dollar have when it reaches the frontline? Does it even get there at all? Is 10B in American aid even close to 10B in Estonian aid?
- david_shi 3y ago
  Zero provenance of where each aid dollar goes. Does it reach the frontline, who's pocket does it go into? And why can't we track this information (at a high level)?
  - piva00 3y ago
    It's being tracked and there's been government reports checking if the money is being siphoned to corruption and so far not much has been found (except the usual low percentage of defrauding but that happens with anything). You and I don't have access to it, it's just expected since it's sensitive information during wartime.
  - hiddencost 3y ago
    Bullshit.

ralph84 3y ago

Yes when you have no concept of private property, environmental protection, or workers rights, stuff gets done faster. Comparisons to China aren’t helpful because the US has chosen a fundamentally different path than China.

yorwba 3y ago
On the concept of private property, you may want to learn about "nail houses" that stick up and refuse to be hammered down to make room for new development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)#Nail_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)#Nail_hou... Pictures: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%E9%92%89%E5%AD%90%E6%88%B7&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%E9%92%89%E5%AD%90%E6%88%B7&iax=im...
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Eh, nail houses are usually built to extract compensation from the government. Which then sometimes is stolen by local officials who build around the property. Adv China has some videos on and in those.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
    Some of those nail houses looked rather old, so I'm having difficulties to believe they've been built for the purpose of extracting compensation from the current government.
inference-lord 3y ago
I'm sorry but I just don't think that's a valid enough excuse because all of the things you mentioned are part of "getting a project done". Everything you mentioned should've been done as part of a study before embarking on the project if it wasn't deemed inviable then no money should've been committed in the first place?
panick21_ 3y ago
If you compare these actually objectivly then things arent that clear. Great, lots of environmental laws that ... prevent a train line that is objectivly great for the envoirnment. The simple fact is, China transportation system is better for the actual environment. Worker protection, ok, US worker protection globally known for being great? If im China a train-line is built 10x as fast, then even assuming higher insure rate, the overall project might be safer. Lets talk salary. Are US workers that work on CHSR better paid relative to other jobs in the economy compared to China? Did China use ultra cheap slave labor? Can you actually show that its the actual workers who benefit from this 10x cost upgrade? Private property isnt absolute. The US can take property if required. And happly did so and still does so for highway expantion. Japan on the other hand has less ability to do it and still manage to build trains. Im not sure how exactly this works in China. But just saying 'private property' isnt actually great analysis. Can you objectivly show that people on the path of CHSR were objectivly better of then those that had property along a line in China. And even if so, how much of the cost does that actually explain. You can look at any number of statistics in regards to infrastructure spending efficency. The US does then to be very high.

rKarpinski 3y ago

> Looking at how much high speed rail China has built, and operates, then you look at the USA who cannot event get a train built between to major cities it's quite crazy that this is such a struggle. One such rail line just opened up going to my friends hometown [1]. Now instead of a 3 hour car ride from the major airport it's 45 minutes by train. The route is roughly half the distance of SF<>LA and wasn't even fully approved till 2019 [2]. [1] https://english.news.cn/20231226/ee2fd2183517440eb11427d25aeb2c6e/c.html https://english.news.cn/20231226/ee2fd2183517440eb11427d25ae... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu%E2%80%93Zigong_high-speed_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu%E2%80%93Zigong_high-sp...

monero-xmr 3y ago

There is something to say that the US gives high priority to individual rights and private property owners. A big part of why developing countries can build so quickly is by steamrolling citizens who aren't politically connected. In China, they simply force everyone to move and bulldoze huge swaths of existing real estate to build new highways and trains. I agree the pendulum is too far in the wrong direction here. But if my city told me I had to move because they were destroying my whole neighborhood to put in a new train, I would be livid - "I thought this was America!" It would take an enormous sum of money - many times over what my property is worth on paper - to make me feel properly compensated for all of the memories, sentimental value, and how much I like my neighborhood.