8 ms·

The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

94 points by casca 3y ago

bawolff 3y ago
The article defines the opposite of being a workaholic ("work matyr") as > “Time Indifference – We put off what must be done and do not use our time to support our own vision and further our own goals.” Personally i can't really identify with that view. I find work hardest to focus on when it is opposed to my own vision/goals (other then the goal to pay my rent). I suppose its still the same thing as a second order effect, spending time procrastinating is usually more time then just straight up doing it, which is less time on your own goals.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  > spending time procrastinating is usually more time then just straight up doing it, which is less time on your own goals When it comes to employment, I've never found it actually benefits me all that much to work hard and deliver results early. And it doesn't free me up that extra time to pursue my own goals either. I don't think I'm alone in this.
  - grugagag 3y ago
    You’ll be rewarded with more work for sure
  - staplers 3y ago
    https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
    - sph 3y ago
      Thanks for sharing. This is such a fun and insightful article I felt it deserved its own post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39507447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39507447
  - bawolff 3y ago
    For me, there is a difference between "procrastinating" where i can't really focus on the thing im supposed to be doing but also can't really do anything else because im super stresssd & anxious about it, and just intentionally putting something off
Ecoste 3y ago
"Time drunks deeply intuit this, and their procrastination-induced state of timelessness should not be considered a terrible character flaw but rather an act of spiritual rebellion against modernity." Thank you, I needed that. Time to continue procrastitating.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Not to mention ADHD/ADD where time-drunkness is the default state, and takes superhuman effort and toll to overcome it.
zitterbewegung 3y ago
It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a few more jobs why should work hours have stayed constant? I’m not even saying we have bs jobs either.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  //It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We don’t. A hundred years the average man was putting in 7 to 7 shifts on the factory or the farm. Physically exhausting, dangerous and painful labor that required your physical presence and likely left you too exhausted for anything else. Today you and I are click clacking our keyboards in a safe and air conditioned environment, likely can fuck off for hours with out anyone noticing etc. The idea that we work “the same” as even two generations ago is preposterous.
  - DougN7 3y ago
    Add to that our much improved relative standard of living (even lower classes are much better off than their long ago counter parts), and it’s clear we’re working less for what we get.
  - idopmstuff 3y ago
    On top of that, most of those farmers were earning subsistence wages and could be ruined by one bad harvest.
  - tw04 3y ago
    Much like the anti-vax movement, the average American seems in complete denial of how things really were a hundred years ago. Prior to unions, work looked completely different - EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about. It's easy to tell yourself that sort of thing would never happen in a country like this when you weren't a direct witness to people (including children) literally being worked to death in a factory.
Terr_ 3y ago
> To be time drunk means to be so “drunk” that one forgets time exists. Hold up, there's something off about this terminology. When alcohol-drinks are drunk on alcohol, they may forget many things, but the existence of (more) alcohol is not typically one of them!
- bee_rider 3y ago
  One could forget how many drinks they consumed. Although, I guess, probably not that one is drinking in general.
- OJFord 3y ago
  > When alcohol-drinks are drunk on alcohol Hang on, how many have you had? :'D I guess it could make sense like 'enjoying using lots of time', so forgetting it exists in the sense of not caring about ifs passage?
madaxe_again 3y ago
I learned these lessons the hard way. I have, through my life, oscillated from one extreme to the other - at school, this manifested as an utter indifference to lessons, preferring to read under the desk, yet a week of frantic learning in which I would absorb the year or term’s lessons. I was mostly time drunk at this point. Come graduation, I had an urgent need for income, to support both myself and family members who suddenly found themselves in a hard place. I worked a day job, a night job, two side gigs, and burned the candle fiercely for four years. One of the side gigs grew, became a business. Ten more years of utterly relentless and increasingly miserable grind. Lucre, too, but at a steep cost. 2016. Burned out. Health so bad I earnestly thought I would probably soon die. Quit. Three years of time drunkenness. Travel. Drugs. More travel. More drugs. Lots of time staring into space and wondering who I was. Nothing was fulfilling, even doing things I knew I once dreamt of one day doing - the memory of desire was there, but the actuality, absent. I had utterly internalised the idea that my labour was my identity, and that I was without want or need. It seemed intractable, and no amount of r&r found me any improved. Then, we moved off grid. Seemingly the last step in a spiral, instead found me suddenly very much occupied with the basics of modern life. Water. Power. Shelter. Floods. Fires. You name it. That, and therapy, have finally found me at a virtuous mean. My cycles are no longer decadal, but hourly. I work. I play. I learn. I waste time. I use it well. I find myself with a child now, to boot - and she is the virtuous mean embodied - work and play, all in one. Anyway. These lessons are easily spoken, but hard earned.
- RHSman2 3y ago
  A child is the greatest gift we can give to ourselves to help us be the ‘best’ versions of ourselves. Good luck on the 2nd part of life.
- drothlis 3y ago
  Beautiful.
chasd00 3y ago
All I got out of this article was “work/life balance is important”. I wish brevity was easier to monetize…
sibeliuss 3y ago
My colleagues would consider me a 'work martyr', but what they don't understand is that my strategy is to get everything done as fast as possible and then to significantly chill. With deadlines covered and all the details buttoned up way ahead of time, it leads to a much less stressful life.
- ikr678 3y ago
  My partner has this same philosophy, but somehow all that seems to happen is them taking on more work (uncompensated) as soon as they get ahead, and the sought-after chill period and energy for non-work never seems to materialise.
  - sibeliuss 3y ago
    This resonates. I had to learn to take the chill period, and now it works.
UncleOxidant 3y ago
> To be time drunk means to be so “drunk” that one forgets time exists. This forgetfulness is presented as a bad thing, given its inefficiency in the market economy. However, forgetting time is the right move when it comes to sacred considerations. But isn't the flow state also where people forget time exists? And isn't the flow state said to be the most productive state people can be in?
- culopatin 3y ago
  But id argue that the only difference between drunk procrastination and flow state is that one is considered “productive” while the other one is considered a waste of time. If my randomly disassembling a laptop to clean it instead of tackling that hard problem at work gave me money I’d be in flow state.
porompompero 3y ago
Are there 2 distinct ways of being time-drunk, one of calmness and one of excitement?

94 points by casca 3y ago

The article defines the opposite of being a workaholic ("work matyr") as > “Time Indifference – We put off what must be done and do not use our time to support our own vision and further our own goals.” Personally i can't really identify with that view. I find work hardest to focus on when it is opposed to my own vision/goals (other then the goal to pay my rent). I suppose its still the same thing as a second order effect, spending time procrastinating is usually more time then just straight up doing it, which is less time on your own goals.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
> spending time procrastinating is usually more time then just straight up doing it, which is less time on your own goals When it comes to employment, I've never found it actually benefits me all that much to work hard and deliver results early. And it doesn't free me up that extra time to pursue my own goals either. I don't think I'm alone in this.
- grugagag 3y ago
  You’ll be rewarded with more work for sure
- staplers 3y ago
  https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
  - sph 3y ago
    Thanks for sharing. This is such a fun and insightful article I felt it deserved its own post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39507447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39507447
- bawolff 3y ago
  For me, there is a difference between "procrastinating" where i can't really focus on the thing im supposed to be doing but also can't really do anything else because im super stresssd & anxious about it, and just intentionally putting something off

Ecoste 3y ago

"Time drunks deeply intuit this, and their procrastination-induced state of timelessness should not be considered a terrible character flaw but rather an act of spiritual rebellion against modernity." Thank you, I needed that. Time to continue procrastitating.

coldtea 3y ago
Not to mention ADHD/ADD where time-drunkness is the default state, and takes superhuman effort and toll to overcome it.

zitterbewegung 3y ago

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a few more jobs why should work hours have stayed constant? I’m not even saying we have bs jobs either.

xyzelement 3y ago
//It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We don’t. A hundred years the average man was putting in 7 to 7 shifts on the factory or the farm. Physically exhausting, dangerous and painful labor that required your physical presence and likely left you too exhausted for anything else. Today you and I are click clacking our keyboards in a safe and air conditioned environment, likely can fuck off for hours with out anyone noticing etc. The idea that we work “the same” as even two generations ago is preposterous.
- DougN7 3y ago
  Add to that our much improved relative standard of living (even lower classes are much better off than their long ago counter parts), and it’s clear we’re working less for what we get.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  On top of that, most of those farmers were earning subsistence wages and could be ruined by one bad harvest.
- tw04 3y ago
  Much like the anti-vax movement, the average American seems in complete denial of how things really were a hundred years ago. Prior to unions, work looked completely different - EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about. It's easy to tell yourself that sort of thing would never happen in a country like this when you weren't a direct witness to people (including children) literally being worked to death in a factory.

Terr_ 3y ago

> To be time drunk means to be so “drunk” that one forgets time exists. Hold up, there's something off about this terminology. When alcohol-drinks are drunk on alcohol, they may forget many things, but the existence of (more) alcohol is not typically one of them!

bee_rider 3y ago
One could forget how many drinks they consumed. Although, I guess, probably not that one is drinking in general.
OJFord 3y ago
> When alcohol-drinks are drunk on alcohol Hang on, how many have you had? :'D I guess it could make sense like 'enjoying using lots of time', so forgetting it exists in the sense of not caring about ifs passage?

madaxe_again 3y ago

I learned these lessons the hard way. I have, through my life, oscillated from one extreme to the other - at school, this manifested as an utter indifference to lessons, preferring to read under the desk, yet a week of frantic learning in which I would absorb the year or term’s lessons. I was mostly time drunk at this point. Come graduation, I had an urgent need for income, to support both myself and family members who suddenly found themselves in a hard place. I worked a day job, a night job, two side gigs, and burned the candle fiercely for four years. One of the side gigs grew, became a business. Ten more years of utterly relentless and increasingly miserable grind. Lucre, too, but at a steep cost. 2016. Burned out. Health so bad I earnestly thought I would probably soon die. Quit. Three years of time drunkenness. Travel. Drugs. More travel. More drugs. Lots of time staring into space and wondering who I was. Nothing was fulfilling, even doing things I knew I once dreamt of one day doing - the memory of desire was there, but the actuality, absent. I had utterly internalised the idea that my labour was my identity, and that I was without want or need. It seemed intractable, and no amount of r&r found me any improved. Then, we moved off grid. Seemingly the last step in a spiral, instead found me suddenly very much occupied with the basics of modern life. Water. Power. Shelter. Floods. Fires. You name it. That, and therapy, have finally found me at a virtuous mean. My cycles are no longer decadal, but hourly. I work. I play. I learn. I waste time. I use it well. I find myself with a child now, to boot - and she is the virtuous mean embodied - work and play, all in one. Anyway. These lessons are easily spoken, but hard earned.

RHSman2 3y ago
A child is the greatest gift we can give to ourselves to help us be the ‘best’ versions of ourselves. Good luck on the 2nd part of life.
drothlis 3y ago
Beautiful.

chasd00 3y ago

All I got out of this article was “work/life balance is important”. I wish brevity was easier to monetize…

sibeliuss 3y ago

My colleagues would consider me a 'work martyr', but what they don't understand is that my strategy is to get everything done as fast as possible and then to significantly chill. With deadlines covered and all the details buttoned up way ahead of time, it leads to a much less stressful life.

ikr678 3y ago
My partner has this same philosophy, but somehow all that seems to happen is them taking on more work (uncompensated) as soon as they get ahead, and the sought-after chill period and energy for non-work never seems to materialise.
- sibeliuss 3y ago
  This resonates. I had to learn to take the chill period, and now it works.

UncleOxidant 3y ago

> To be time drunk means to be so “drunk” that one forgets time exists. This forgetfulness is presented as a bad thing, given its inefficiency in the market economy. However, forgetting time is the right move when it comes to sacred considerations. But isn't the flow state also where people forget time exists? And isn't the flow state said to be the most productive state people can be in?

culopatin 3y ago
But id argue that the only difference between drunk procrastination and flow state is that one is considered “productive” while the other one is considered a waste of time. If my randomly disassembling a laptop to clean it instead of tackling that hard problem at work gave me money I’d be in flow state.

porompompero 3y ago

Are there 2 distinct ways of being time-drunk, one of calmness and one of excitement?