7 ms·

I'm strongly in favor of expanding the US social safety net, but I don't want to neglect other obvious factors here. Dutch children are able to walk or bike out

by MBlume 3y ago

I'm strongly in favor of expanding the US social safety net, but I don't want to neglect other obvious factors here. Dutch children are able to walk or bike outside unsupervised. In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. I think this kind of freedom of movement has a big effect on happiness, it certainly did for me. ETA relevant links: https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes https://letgrow.org/ https://letgrow.org/ ETA again: I glibly mentioned "being killed by a driver" but of course navigating the typical US built environment if you're under 16 or otherwise unable to drive is a miserable experience in a number of ways even if you survive it. Highways make pedestrian paths unnecessarily roundabout. Parking lots make everything further from everything else. Crossing major roads requires getting drivers to notice and stop for you (harder when you're short!), or waiting through interminable signal cycles, etc.

besofrrn 3y ago
Certainly not as big as "do I have food tonight", though.
softwaredoug 3y ago
Cars ruin cities - https://www.ft.com/content/27169841-7ee3-481e-919d-41b247e401f6 https://www.ft.com/content/27169841-7ee3-481e-919d-41b247e40...
- Lance_ET_Compte 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - wyre 3y ago
    All this, but unironically.
  - literalAardvark 3y ago
    Well, yes.
- tempsy 3y ago
  Urban cities in the US have some the worst public schools in the country which is a much bigger issue.
dopamean 3y ago
I read a blog post a while back that had the idea that the reason so many American's remember their college years so fondly is because for many of them it was the only time in their lives where they lived somewhere walkable.
- MBlume 3y ago
  This was my experience. There's this narrative that you move away from your parents and you have the freedom and independence they were previously denying you, and I'm sure that's very much the case for many people but it's not as though my parents were ever trying to keep me from going places and seeing people, the built environment where I grew up (suburb of Los Angeles) did that.
- redox99 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure almost everywhere in the world people remember their college years fondly.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Not to the same degree. The relative freedom and stress of high school vs collage vs young adult varies quite a bit. Extreme collage debt does quite a bit to dampen the joy of many young working Americans.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  Not only walkable, but with a lot of third spaces and those get actually used because your peer group cannot afford lots of private space. You likely even live in a dorm or with roommates. Anecdotally I spent 2 years of my undergraduate living by myself a 10 minute drive away from University in a little village outside of town. I then moved in with roommates to live walking distance between University and downtown. It's obvious from what time most of my fondest memories are.
  - opportune 3y ago
    And on top of that, your social peers are very nearby. Whereas even in walkable cities like NYC or SF, the cities are big enough that your peers may also be in a walkable area but far enough away to require public transit/careful planning. I have read that one consequence of the Japanese practice of tearing down buildings and buying new is that you tend to get colocated with many people of the same socioeconomic class and age. We have similar forces going on in the Western world (families may prefer suburbs which also tend to sort by SES, yuppies prefer nice urban areas, etc) but I think in Japan it is a bit more deliberate.
Verdex 3y ago
Yeah, the way I see it, as a parent I've got basically two responsibilities for my children. Ensure safety and wellbeing AND facilitate increased autonomy as their development allows. I'm more than happy to transition into a secondary caregiver for their own children and/or a financial backstop when they get to that stage of life. But I've met too many people first hand who were never allowed to increase their own autonomy as they aged into adulthood. Sometimes due to their parents and sometimes due to society. They do not seem to be happy.
- blackhaj7 3y ago
  I have noticed that most of my friends who have depression had this upbringing. The lack of autonomy resulted in them being overwhelmed by the real world and caused them all sorts of damage
JohnFen 3y ago
> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. It may depends on where in the US you're talking about, but in my area none of this is actually true. Although lots of people believe it is.
- smo29 3y ago
  My friend and I were stopped by an officer and asked to show identification. We were just walking down the street, age 12. This is in the midwest. Dismiss complaints about police at your own peril.
- MBlume 3y ago
  Sounds nice. I've personally spoken on the phone with a police officer who told me he'd involve CPS if he saw my daughter walking (two blocks!) to school again.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - koolba 3y ago
    How old is your daughter and what happened when you told him to mind his own business and called his bluff?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > what happened when you told him to mind his own business and called his bluff? It's not a bluff. From what I've read, fighting CPS is expensive. (Though I would raise the issue with the police chief.)
    - deprecative 3y ago
      You want to antagonize an untouchable murder junkie? In what universe is that a good idea?
      - 3y ago
zachkatz 3y ago
For more in-depth reading on Dutch street design, this blog is fascinating: https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/what%20works https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/what%20wo...
ars 3y ago
People keep saying this, and it's just not true. Sure, there are stories in the press, but the actual lived reality of kids in the US is not that. You can easily tell I'm right simply because it's in the News: The News doesn't cover the normal situation, they cover the unusual. If it's in the news, it's something that rarely happens.
- burningChrome 3y ago
  To support your point, the news in the US has become far more sensationalized then what I remember growing up. In the mid aughts when I was in college, my buddy (a journalism major) told me even in their college news room they had adopted the famous adage, "If it bleeds, it leads" as their motto on what gets reported.
rootusrootus 3y ago
> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. This is true on the Internet, but not true in any real life place I've lived in the US.
thefz 3y ago
Witnessing Americans slowly realizing that public health care and social safety contribute more to personal freedom than anything else they consider "freedom" (such a as unregulated capitalism) is a wonderful process. Do you think you can create a better society if you provide everyone with basics, or by granting access to guns to everybody? I mean, you guys don't walk in your city and don't have kids playing outside. Wow. Land of the free?

by MBlume 3y ago

besofrrn 3y ago

Certainly not as big as "do I have food tonight", though.

softwaredoug 3y ago

Cars ruin cities - https://www.ft.com/content/27169841-7ee3-481e-919d-41b247e401f6 https://www.ft.com/content/27169841-7ee3-481e-919d-41b247e40...

Lance_ET_Compte 3y ago
[flagged]
- wyre 3y ago
  All this, but unironically.
- literalAardvark 3y ago
  Well, yes.
tempsy 3y ago
Urban cities in the US have some the worst public schools in the country which is a much bigger issue.

dopamean 3y ago

I read a blog post a while back that had the idea that the reason so many American's remember their college years so fondly is because for many of them it was the only time in their lives where they lived somewhere walkable.

MBlume 3y ago
This was my experience. There's this narrative that you move away from your parents and you have the freedom and independence they were previously denying you, and I'm sure that's very much the case for many people but it's not as though my parents were ever trying to keep me from going places and seeing people, the built environment where I grew up (suburb of Los Angeles) did that.
redox99 3y ago
I'm pretty sure almost everywhere in the world people remember their college years fondly.
- Retric 3y ago
  Not to the same degree. The relative freedom and stress of high school vs collage vs young adult varies quite a bit. Extreme collage debt does quite a bit to dampen the joy of many young working Americans.
ajmurmann 3y ago
Not only walkable, but with a lot of third spaces and those get actually used because your peer group cannot afford lots of private space. You likely even live in a dorm or with roommates. Anecdotally I spent 2 years of my undergraduate living by myself a 10 minute drive away from University in a little village outside of town. I then moved in with roommates to live walking distance between University and downtown. It's obvious from what time most of my fondest memories are.
- opportune 3y ago
  And on top of that, your social peers are very nearby. Whereas even in walkable cities like NYC or SF, the cities are big enough that your peers may also be in a walkable area but far enough away to require public transit/careful planning. I have read that one consequence of the Japanese practice of tearing down buildings and buying new is that you tend to get colocated with many people of the same socioeconomic class and age. We have similar forces going on in the Western world (families may prefer suburbs which also tend to sort by SES, yuppies prefer nice urban areas, etc) but I think in Japan it is a bit more deliberate.

Verdex 3y ago

Yeah, the way I see it, as a parent I've got basically two responsibilities for my children. Ensure safety and wellbeing AND facilitate increased autonomy as their development allows. I'm more than happy to transition into a secondary caregiver for their own children and/or a financial backstop when they get to that stage of life. But I've met too many people first hand who were never allowed to increase their own autonomy as they aged into adulthood. Sometimes due to their parents and sometimes due to society. They do not seem to be happy.

blackhaj7 3y ago
I have noticed that most of my friends who have depression had this upbringing. The lack of autonomy resulted in them being overwhelmed by the real world and caused them all sorts of damage

JohnFen 3y ago

> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. It may depends on where in the US you're talking about, but in my area none of this is actually true. Although lots of people believe it is.

smo29 3y ago
My friend and I were stopped by an officer and asked to show identification. We were just walking down the street, age 12. This is in the midwest. Dismiss complaints about police at your own peril.
MBlume 3y ago
Sounds nice. I've personally spoken on the phone with a police officer who told me he'd involve CPS if he saw my daughter walking (two blocks!) to school again.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- koolba 3y ago
  How old is your daughter and what happened when you told him to mind his own business and called his bluff?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > what happened when you told him to mind his own business and called his bluff? It's not a bluff. From what I've read, fighting CPS is expensive. (Though I would raise the issue with the police chief.)
  - deprecative 3y ago
    You want to antagonize an untouchable murder junkie? In what universe is that a good idea?
    - 3y ago

zachkatz 3y ago

For more in-depth reading on Dutch street design, this blog is fascinating: https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/what%20works https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/what%20wo...

ars 3y ago

People keep saying this, and it's just not true. Sure, there are stories in the press, but the actual lived reality of kids in the US is not that. You can easily tell I'm right simply because it's in the News: The News doesn't cover the normal situation, they cover the unusual. If it's in the news, it's something that rarely happens.

burningChrome 3y ago
To support your point, the news in the US has become far more sensationalized then what I remember growing up. In the mid aughts when I was in college, my buddy (a journalism major) told me even in their college news room they had adopted the famous adage, "If it bleeds, it leads" as their motto on what gets reported.

rootusrootus 3y ago

> In the US they'd risk either being killed by a driver, or stopped by an overzealous neighbor or police officer. This is true on the Internet, but not true in any real life place I've lived in the US.

thefz 3y ago

Witnessing Americans slowly realizing that public health care and social safety contribute more to personal freedom than anything else they consider "freedom" (such a as unregulated capitalism) is a wonderful process. Do you think you can create a better society if you provide everyone with basics, or by granting access to guns to everybody? I mean, you guys don't walk in your city and don't have kids playing outside. Wow. Land of the free?