7 ms·

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on

by throwaway421967 3y ago

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive. - 766 / 1200 = 63.8% - 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged. Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim. [1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

xdennis 3y ago
[flagged]
- int_19h 3y ago
  When Brits were firebombing German cities, that had very little to do with freeing anyone from anything. Even at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge, and it's hard to not take the same impression from how Israel is conducting itself in Gaza, especially given some telling remarks from Israeli leadership.
  - avmich 3y ago
    It's interesting that we keep quite a critical view of modern politicians, yet when discussing on the field interactions we assume that armies of people, all like one, follow the bloodthirsty orders from commanders above.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge In part. Air power was new at the time, and there was legitimate strategic ambiguity around the military value of removing war factories’ workforces. (This is why Germany and Britain bombed by night while America bombed by day.)
    - kilolima 3y ago
      I'd be curious to see a citation for this claim if you remember it. Thanks!
      - jdietrich 3y ago
        The book Terror from the Sky: The Bombing of German Cities in World War II covers most of the major issues. The key point of distinction between the American and British approach emerged through what the British euphemistically referred to as "dehousing" - the idea that destroying German housing stock would disrupt the operation of manufacturing, divert materials and labour away from military use and demoralise the population. On this premise, civilian casualties were merely the incidental consequence of destroying houses. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchwt https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchwt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing
  - emmelaich 3y ago
    Was it not? The war was not over and so no-one was freed, yet. Regarding Dresden, from wikipedia... > United States Air Force reports, declassified decades later, noted as a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the continued Nazi German war effort
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Qem 3y ago
Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive: https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hannibal-directive-on-7-oct-media https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann... https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaganda-tank-eyewitnesses/ https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
- shakil 3y ago
  Why is this flagged/down voted? Its just a plain statement of fact, supported by credible sources and references. Here's some more references if people think this didn't happen. The IDF attacked and fired on the Nova festival goers with Apache helicopters [1], an Israeli tank fired shells at Kibbutz Be'eri killing hostages and children, and stories of eight babies killed at the kibbutz have been proven to be false, among other things [3], [4] 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-mistakenly-hit-festival-attendees-while-targeting-hamas https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-mistakenly-hit-festival-... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_t... 3. https://archive.is/Zn3Bt https://archive.is/Zn3Bt 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L91kG_bYsn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L91kG_bYsn0
  - brighteyes 3y ago
    It is downvoted because it said "sizable fraction", which is a conspiracy theory. It is true that there were a few incidents, but they only account for a very small fraction of the death toll.
    - rsoto2 3y ago
      The report that I saw said that there were 70 vehicles completely destroyed by RPG or Helicopter and the Israeli military did not go into specifics(although they undoubtedly have more data about the event than they have released)
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged…Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim What claim? As far as civilian casualty rates go, mid 60s is nothing to be proud of, but square in the middle of the pack when it comes to modern wars [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12
Asafp 3y ago
[flagged]
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  > Big difference is that Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose I think this is not a justified statement. Keeping in mind hat israeli government is clearly very far right, and on multiple occasions have brought up deranged things about Amalek, about "no innocents in Gaza", I think one can establish a reasonable doubt about the true intent of idf actions.
  - Asafp 3y ago
    Israel is not targeting civilians, thats a fact. It gains nothing from hitting them, and trying it best to evacuate them to safe zones. Why would they try to hit civilians? and if they did, why they didnt try to fire into the safe zones? (whom Hamas have fired rockets into Israel from multiple times, yet Israel didnt attack in order to not hit civilians, while risking its own civilians) The people making decisions right now are not far-right, the far-right have been moved to the side line when it comes to the war decision making.Instead Gants and Eizenkot joined, whom both are moderate right. All the sentence you quoted are out of context and were said just after a few days that Israel suffered the biggest massacre, the entire country was in trauma and in emotions.
    - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
      Look, I live in remote corner of ex-USSR, do not care about intricacies of israel politics, all I can see is the top leaders of the country (minister of security, president, defence ministers) keep saying these weird stuff at all phases of he conflict; every other day some mad shit israeli army did again gets posted on X. All israeli govt is far far right. Likud won't fly in anywhere in civilise world. Just seeing freaks like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir being actually employed in israel says a lot about israel. I am not good at these pilpul games of who slightly less crazy right wing who is more, what was the context of bibis deranged rants, so yeah. IMO israel as well may be targeting civilians. W#hich what ICJ had found that day. You words are worthless to me, my friend. I make jusdgemjents from what I see, and I think that israel does target civilians in Gaza.

xdennis 3y ago

[flagged]

int_19h 3y ago
When Brits were firebombing German cities, that had very little to do with freeing anyone from anything. Even at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge, and it's hard to not take the same impression from how Israel is conducting itself in Gaza, especially given some telling remarks from Israeli leadership.
- avmich 3y ago
  It's interesting that we keep quite a critical view of modern politicians, yet when discussing on the field interactions we assume that armies of people, all like one, follow the bloodthirsty orders from commanders above.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge In part. Air power was new at the time, and there was legitimate strategic ambiguity around the military value of removing war factories’ workforces. (This is why Germany and Britain bombed by night while America bombed by day.)
  - kilolima 3y ago
    I'd be curious to see a citation for this claim if you remember it. Thanks!
    - jdietrich 3y ago
      The book Terror from the Sky: The Bombing of German Cities in World War II covers most of the major issues. The key point of distinction between the American and British approach emerged through what the British euphemistically referred to as "dehousing" - the idea that destroying German housing stock would disrupt the operation of manufacturing, divert materials and labour away from military use and demoralise the population. On this premise, civilian casualties were merely the incidental consequence of destroying houses. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchwt https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchwt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing
- emmelaich 3y ago
  Was it not? The war was not over and so no-one was freed, yet. Regarding Dresden, from wikipedia... > United States Air Force reports, declassified decades later, noted as a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the continued Nazi German war effort
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Qem 3y ago

Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive: https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hannibal-directive-on-7-oct-media https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann... https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaganda-tank-eyewitnesses/ https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

shakil 3y ago
Why is this flagged/down voted? Its just a plain statement of fact, supported by credible sources and references. Here's some more references if people think this didn't happen. The IDF attacked and fired on the Nova festival goers with Apache helicopters [1], an Israeli tank fired shells at Kibbutz Be'eri killing hostages and children, and stories of eight babies killed at the kibbutz have been proven to be false, among other things [3], [4] 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-mistakenly-hit-festival-attendees-while-targeting-hamas https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-mistakenly-hit-festival-... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_t... 3. https://archive.is/Zn3Bt https://archive.is/Zn3Bt 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L91kG_bYsn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L91kG_bYsn0
- brighteyes 3y ago
  It is downvoted because it said "sizable fraction", which is a conspiracy theory. It is true that there were a few incidents, but they only account for a very small fraction of the death toll.
  - rsoto2 3y ago
    The report that I saw said that there were 70 vehicles completely destroyed by RPG or Helicopter and the Israeli military did not go into specifics(although they undoubtedly have more data about the event than they have released)

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged…Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim What claim? As far as civilian casualty rates go, mid 60s is nothing to be proud of, but square in the middle of the pack when it comes to modern wars [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12

Asafp 3y ago

[flagged]

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
> Big difference is that Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose I think this is not a justified statement. Keeping in mind hat israeli government is clearly very far right, and on multiple occasions have brought up deranged things about Amalek, about "no innocents in Gaza", I think one can establish a reasonable doubt about the true intent of idf actions.
- Asafp 3y ago
  Israel is not targeting civilians, thats a fact. It gains nothing from hitting them, and trying it best to evacuate them to safe zones. Why would they try to hit civilians? and if they did, why they didnt try to fire into the safe zones? (whom Hamas have fired rockets into Israel from multiple times, yet Israel didnt attack in order to not hit civilians, while risking its own civilians) The people making decisions right now are not far-right, the far-right have been moved to the side line when it comes to the war decision making.Instead Gants and Eizenkot joined, whom both are moderate right. All the sentence you quoted are out of context and were said just after a few days that Israel suffered the biggest massacre, the entire country was in trauma and in emotions.
  - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
    Look, I live in remote corner of ex-USSR, do not care about intricacies of israel politics, all I can see is the top leaders of the country (minister of security, president, defence ministers) keep saying these weird stuff at all phases of he conflict; every other day some mad shit israeli army did again gets posted on X. All israeli govt is far far right. Likud won't fly in anywhere in civilise world. Just seeing freaks like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir being actually employed in israel says a lot about israel. I am not good at these pilpul games of who slightly less crazy right wing who is more, what was the context of bibis deranged rants, so yeah. IMO israel as well may be targeting civilians. W#hich what ICJ had found that day. You words are worthless to me, my friend. I make jusdgemjents from what I see, and I think that israel does target civilians in Gaza.