8 ms·
You're Too Old for That: Age Discrimination in Japan Tech
- Aeolun 3y agoHmm, I’ve had fresh people hired into management positions because that was age appropriate, never mind that those people were not interested in managing and had only one or two token reports.
- swader999 3y agoIn practical terms, I've never been asked my age in an interview. At some point I'm going to prune my experience if I have to.
- whatyesaid 3y agoAge is pretty easily guessable by degree dates and your appearance, they don't need to ask it explicitly.
- swader999 3y agoNever had those checked either.
- Retric 3y agoIs there some reason to add degree dates? I removed them as clutter.
- Aeolun 3y agoMaybe at some point it’s better to leave off your degree? Your 20 years of experience are a lot more important (and the 10 before those irrelevant).
- tarxvf 3y agoMore than that, too. I bet you could guess my age within 2 years with solely a list of technology I've used. I don't think it would even have to be sorted by date.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoYah, when your answer for "most interesting project" involves an MCU with 63 bytes of RAM...
- krasin 3y agoThat could be very well today. Here is an example of an MCU with 48 bytes of SRAM that is relevant in 2024 because it costs less than 2 cents: https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/span-style-background-color-ff0-Microcontroller-span-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_Nyquest-Tech-NY8A051H_C5143390.html https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/span-style-background-co...
- makerdiety 3y agoCould I use a $0.02 microcontroller unit that has 48 bytes of RAM to function as the computer for a homemade networked camera package? Like, attaching the MCU to a one dollar WiFi module to begin building an amateur information technology system with a Raspberry Pi single board computer performing as the mainframe server?
- toast0 3y agoThe $1 WiFi module probably has a better microcontroller built in... And thus the popularity of the ESP8266...
- makerdiety 3y agoI just learned about the ESP8266 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP8266 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP8266). Thanks. So, there's already entire systems on chips? Like the Raspberry Pis and ESP32s? Are they robust and general purpose though? Can they be integrated into any little home project? Or would you have to design and make your own microchips for your own cases?
- ensignavenger 3y agoFortunately for me, I finished my degree much later in life than most folks. Pretty sure I could pass myself off as being at least 10 years younger than I am in a job hunt. Though we could just normalize leaveing graduation dates off of resumes... I dont6think that is especially relevant for most jobs.
- UncleOxidant 3y agoI completed my undergrad at a pretty normal age of 21, I did my Masters 20 years later... but that's now getting close to 20 years ago so I guess I should remove the date on that one now too.
- coldtea 3y ago>Pretty sure I could pass myself off as being at least 10 years younger than I am in a job hunt. Until you get an in person or zoom interview.
- ensignavenger 3y agoI think I can make myself look at least a decade younger, especially over Zoom.
- Atreiden 3y agoYou don't need to list the dates you obtained your degree. When I was just getting started in the field, I already had some work experience from prior exploits and college employment. Leaving the dates off my degree helped me get a reasonable job early on, I think. Just wear your ballcap backwards and folks will assume you're at least young at heart! (I jest)
- phendrenad2 3y agoInterviewing continues while on the job. People have been put on layoff lists, "encouraged" to quit, and passed over for promotion based on age, too. People have take these cases to court but it's not easy to prove.
- coldcode 3y agoIf this is true, given their birth rate, they will have to change, or run out of people to do things.
- jalapenos 3y agoA reminder Japan's birthrate isn't a special case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_f... Same as Spain and Jamaica, higher than China and Korea.
- brailsafe 3y agoCloser to Canada than Canada is to the U.S.
- zeroCalories 3y agoYou probably want to look at overall population growth, as many countries have young immigrants that contribute to their growth.
- jalapenos 3y agoNo, I don't. I'm specifically commenting on the Japan birthrate trope they reiterated.
- zeroCalories 3y agoI thought the topic was about countries running out of workers. Western countries are doing fine, as they're able to import workers.
- phendrenad2 3y agoThere's also the question of what a country even is anymore, other than a company that collects taxes when goods or money move across an arbitrary border, in exchange for using its brand image.
- wegfawefgawefg 3y agoYou know what japan always does though? They always respond to applications. Theres no instant automated rejection email. Theres no getting ghosted by 90% of companies. Pay is bad though.
- barbazoo 3y ago> Pay is bad though I wonder if that is in any way correlated to this: > Gov't study finds only 3,065 homeless people in Japan https://japantoday.com/category/national/gov%27t-study-finds-only-3-065-homeless-people-in-japan https://japantoday.com/category/national/gov%27t-study-finds...
- staunton 3y agoFirst, that number is most probably understated. Second, your comment could be interpreted as saying that counties with high pay have (or should have) a lot of homeless people, which seems insane. So what did you mean?
- Negitivefrags 3y agoIt’s not that insane. If pay is low then companies can afford to hire more people to do the same amount of work, leading to overall more employment and then presumably less homelessness.
- cscurmudgeon 3y agoUnemployment is just one factor in homelessness. Other factors are drugs (Japan is much more stricter), home availability (Japan has much less NIBMYies), etc.
- callalex 3y agoAlso most importantly the ability for the state to declare you mentally unfit and hold you against your will.
- blindriver 3y agoJapan requires photos of woman on their resumes, and their age. Japanese employers don't like hiring women who are in their child-bearing ages because they might get pregnant. Say what you want about the US, but the level of protection workers have is so much better than most other countries.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- slily 3y agoThey don't "require photos of woman", passport-style portrait photos are standard period. It's really no different from LinkedIn being the standard in Western countries where you're suspicious if you don't have a personal photo on your profile and where you can just as easily be discriminated against based on your looks or whatever other criteria you can think of. The only difference is that they'll use euphemisms or outright bullshit you, if they even bother getting back to you about your application.
- jalapenos 3y agoBit disingenuous wording - they don't exclude men from photos & age. The US has summary firing. In Japan if you're a permanent employee you can reasonably expect to remain so. From the people pissing in bottles at Amazon your protections don't sound any better. Hiring discrimination against child bearing aged women is universal - it's just in the US they have to be more careful how they do it.
- gyomu 3y agoYep. I once had the CEO of an early stage, venture backed SF startup I worked for confide to me: “you know, every time we interview a woman in her late 20s/early 30s, I just have to wonder if she’ll take maternity leave 6 months in to working with us. As a startup we just can’t afford that”. Of course the public face of the company was all about fighting inequality, supporting diversity, etc.
- 3y ago
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoIn the company I worked for, it actually went the other way, from the US. There were levels and positions that were only available to employees of certain chronological ages (or above). I remember doing some fancy footwork, trying to get particularly bright younger engineers into positions of greater responsibility. They did force you to retire at 60, though. I suspect that is an artifact of their "full employment" stance. I’ll bet they are revisiting that, now, as the population is actually declining.
- zeroCalories 3y agoIf we're working on a serious project(not tinder for dogs), I want to staff my senior positions with people that have tons of experience, not someone super bright. More broadly, I think the problem with age discrimination is a problem with engineers that have 30 years of experience doing unimpressive things. For an IC code monkey I would definitely prefer someone younger with a lot of energy and potential to grow. Not saying that I think age discrimination is okay, but that's too the reality of how people feel.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y agoPreaching to the choir, here. If you know much about me, you know that SV’s ageism is one of my biggest peeves. I feel that many of these jurassic-scale disasters, we hear about, are likely the direct result of inexperienced, impulsive, decisions, made with no adults In the room. I just feel that each employee should be managed as an individual; an attitude that doesn’t mesh well, with today’s business culture.
- tetrisgm 3y agoIn the next 10 to 15 years, tech is going to have a lot of millennial who reach 50+. We'll have a similar challenge in the US where tech culture leans towards hyping youth, and the new reality.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoLuckily, there’s going to be a lot less youth (compressing demographic pyramid), forcing businesses to accommodate older workers if they want labor.
- taude 3y agonah, they'll just continue moving it offshore.
- simonsarris 3y agoI have bad news about the demographic pyramid of nearly every country...
- cubefox 3y agoIf the AI progress in the next 10 to 15 years will be like the AI progress in the last 10 to 15 years, tech culture will no longer hype youth anyway, or human employees in general.
- 3y ago
- andrewstuart 3y agoYou’ll never know if you’re being discriminated against due to age. Not here in Australia anyway, no one would ever say out loud. You just don’t get selected. I did go for a job recently where we had a great phone interview and the guy essentially said “everything looks great we just need to meet in person” and when we met in person I visibly saw his expression change. Something about my appearance, either age or weight or both. He emailed no thanks after.
- alephnan 3y agoThis is a case where statistics could prove of systemic discrimination and statistical anomalies
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bigstrat2003 3y agoThey can prove statistical anomalies, sure. But no amount of statistics can prove discrimination (contrary to popular belief these days).
- harimau777 3y agoThat's only the case if one believes that certain groups of people truly are superior or inferior.
- Terr_ 3y ago> But no amount of statistics can prove By that logic [0] no amount of data can prove anything, and the label "unproven" becomes meaningless. (Especially if the twist-ending is that you're trapped in a dream and this conversation isn't happening.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon
- coldtea 3y agoWith the right laws, a company could still be fined if they don't meet age percentage quota, so there's that. "Hmm, all your hires are < 30 huh? OK, we don't care if you intended to discriminate or not, here's the fine".
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- neilv 3y agoOn age discrimination closer to home for US techbros... Pretty early in one warm-fuzzy FAANG, around the time a friend of mine finished a big-name CS-ish advanced degree, and he was at an event where the FAANG was recruiting. It might've been a campus event. At the event, he happened to overhear some of the 20-something recruiting representatives of the FAANG, making fun of a candidate they'd interviewed for being "old". I didn't ask, but, based on the way he said it, he might've been the one they were making fun of. (Then again, he's always defending others, and might've just been very upset on someone else's behalf. Though, if he'd been defending someone else, he probably would've ripped those representatives a new one, at least three different ways.) I think he was still in his 30s, despite two successful earlier careers (one as an old school tech-ish entrepreneur). He went to the gym and was fit, but he looked like what he was: a kid from humble upbringings, who'd seen some rough situations, including being gay when and where that was not OK, and had pulled himself up by his bootstraps, to success despite all that. And while also doing a lot of activism to help some of the most disadvantaged and persecuted, when it was unfashionable. He showed some of that weathering, and -- I suspect this might've been a barrier with that group -- didn't look like an affluent Palo Alto recent-grad. So, "old". Or, if those airhead representatives had had HR training, they would've called it "culture fit". Which is doubly ironic in his case, since, in principle, he was pretty much a poster-child for the warm-fuzzy FAANG's PR: socioeconomically-diverse, cross-disciplinary, whole-self, make-the-world-better, with LGBTQ+ sprinkles on top. He seemed very disappointed in those representatives of the FAANG, and had some choice words about who that FAANG "was hiring now". And in the couple decades since, he never did go there, even though, on paper, it would've been the obvious choice at multiple points of his career accomplishments.