9 ms·
Even if this is not a foolproof way to avoid flying on a 737 max, using it will provide a very _visible_ signal to the airlines. If they're losing ticket sales
by andjd 3y ago
Even if this is not a foolproof way to avoid flying on a 737 max, using it will provide a very _visible_ signal to the airlines. If they're losing ticket sales because people don't want to fly on a 737, the airlines will find a way to adapt. Even a marginal change of a few percentage points can shift a route from profitable to unprofitable.
Airbus is already outselling Boeing 2-1. If you're looking at a 5-10 year lead time anyways, they can expand production to eat further into Boeing's share if that's what the airlines demand.
- ugh123 3y ago>the airlines will find a way to adapt The industry's go-to method here will probably be lawyers and take-down notices to Kayak, before they adapt.
- richwater 3y ago> they can expand production This is MUCH, (and I must reiterate) MUCH harder than it sounds.
- lawlessone 3y agoyeah i don't want them to do this and become as bad as Boeing in the process.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> using it will provide a very _visible_ signal to the airlines. If they're losing ticket sales They’re not. And neither is Boeing. If someone using Kayak isn’t willing to contact their elected, they’re irrelevant. (Complaints might register if you’re a frequent flier who books through the airline and gives written feedback. But I haven’t seen evidence of that yet.)
- csours 3y agoI bet a few people at Boeing got heartburn about this option being added.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> bet a few people at Boeing got heartburn about this option being added Sure. They’re just not the revenue folks. It’s a sign of a degraded brand. Not a per se threat.
- csours 3y agoRevenue folks will care about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39106480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39106480
- wand3r 3y ago> They're not Boeings stock price is down 18% this month. Sure it's not because of Kayak, this is simply another data point that consumers are wary of Boeing. Boeing is massively fucking up and even though procurement cycles are extremely long, it definitely will have an impact. They are a plane and rocket company that can't build planes or rockets
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Boeings stock price is down 18% this month Due to the threat of damages from airlines for the cost of groundings and regulation. Not passengers who book through aggregators checking a box.
- simonklitj 3y agoI’ll quote wand3r back to you: > Sure it's not because of Kayak
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoNeither is it because consumers are wary. They may be. But not in a market-impacting way. “I won’t fly Boeing” is 2024’s Kony 2012.
- dingnuts 3y agoFor that to be true, the whole Boeing fiasco would have to be a hoax, when it instead seems to be becoming a very concerning pattern. I'm very happy to learn that JetBlue is AirBus-only in this thread. I already am an anxious flyer with a trip coming up in six months and it'd be a lie to say I wasn't considering just driving, even though that's statistically more dangerous, it's a situation where I have more perceived control.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> an anxious flyer with a trip coming up in six months and it'd be a lie to say I wasn't considering just driving Sure. But someone travelling once in six months, and actively weighing flying versus driving, isn’t a market-moving customer. I have no doubt some demand destruction is happening. But it’s not along frequent fliers. Airlines are clamouring to get their planes recertified because they know they’ll be filled.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoI’m starting to treat general aviation as though it was 50 years ago: Very unsafe and expensive My expectation is that its going to take a serious accident to get anything to change. I’m unaware of a highly utilized yet significantly broken system (Tacoma Narrows anyone?) that was able to improve iteratively without catastrophic failure driving improvement (Space Shuttle) Most human systems don’t seem to have the ability to build fourth order forecasting into system design across all individual and integrated components The idea of a “factor of safety” seems to be just completely missing in most engineering systems because tolerances mean waste and shareholders won’t allow waste that doesn’t go into their pockets
- cityofdelusion 3y agoGeneral aviation is and always has been unsafe, due to the prevalence of single engine aircraft and unskilled pilots. Did you mean commercial aviation?
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoYeah I did. I’m a private pilot so sometimes i mix em up. Thanks
- plussed_reader 3y agoPlease qualify 'serious accident' in the wake of 2 crashes and a decompression event forcing landing.
- sixothree 3y agoThose two accidents didn't "happen here" and our news is very isolated from the rest of the world. Maybe that's what he means?
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoMy definition: Everyone on the plane has to die in a way that the plurality of citizens are horrified enough that they can put public pressure on a public figure powerful enough to force structural change This is the same idea as the cynical idea of “taking advantage of a crisis” What I’m not saying here is that this is what should happen or that this is how things should happen in a normative way. I’m simply describing that humans make progress almost exclusively in response to disaster rather than proactively preventing it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- shmatt 3y agoPlanes get swapped out last minute pretty often, its pretty much the only way to avoid full airline meltdowns every time one flight is 60 minutes late to take off. Hell, there was no huge meltdown in the US once the 737 MAX was grounded, twice. They just swap them out, the system knows how to do it efficiently An evil (but working) way to bypass this once 737s are flying again, would be to put a different plane with similar layout on every flight, then swap to the 737 on the itinerary the day before Different plane, different seat, is pretty aggressively baked into TOS
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago“ put a different plane with similar layout on every flight, then swap to the 737 on the itinerary the day before” Question to True Believers in Free market, where is the line between free market and fraud?
- isubkhankulov 3y agoTraveling in a different vehicle than originally intended is not fraud. Rental car companies do this all the time. Large countries without free market capitalism have much worse safety records for flying from a historical perspective. To be clear, i’m referring to Russia and China.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoIn Russia they can sell you fake plastic cheese that catches fire, and you still have zero chance of winning a lawsuit. You compensation for wrongdoing or death will be minimal. So it’s more capitalist that US in this regard. https://www.obozrevatel.com/curious/48293-zato-otechestvennyij-v-rossii-pokazali-kak-gorit-chudo-syir--fotofakt.htm https://www.obozrevatel.com/curious/48293-zato-otechestvenny... If I pay for beef, but you sell me pork, that’s fraud. If I pay for organic eggs, but you sell me ‘normal’ eggs, that’s fraud. Eggs are literally the same thing, but you can sell me the wrong airplane? Why is the market freer for some than for others?
- gfiorav 3y ago> Airbus is already outselling Boeing 2-1. What's your source? I looked up the quarterly earnings report, and Boeing reports 528 planes delivered in 2023 vs 488 from Airbus. Just curious to know if you're talking dollar amount or what?
- kgermino 3y agoI don’t know the source or veracity but that’s deliveries vs new orders. Planes being delivered this quarter were probably ordered before COVID hit in my understanding so any order differences would take a long time to show up in the delivery numbers
- belter 3y ago"Airbus Vs Boeing: Who Won 2023?" - https://simpleflying.com/airbus-vs-boeing-who-won-2023/ https://simpleflying.com/airbus-vs-boeing-who-won-2023/ "Airbus led in terms of aircraft orders, with Reuters reporting earlier this month that the manufacturer was on track to hit an all-time year-end order record of over 1,800. Boeing's order numbers were a little further behind, with only about 1,200 net orders logged. When it comes to aircraft delivery targets, Airbus again pulled ahead. According to the latest analysis from Reuters, the Toulouse-based manufacturer is set to come out on top, with over 720 jets projected to be delivered to customers by the end of the year. Boeing also trails in this category, with delivery targets only sitting around 500."
- SoftTalker 3y agoAirbus is backordered for years. Boeing is the only company that's actually got the capacity to take new orders for larger airliners.
- ulfw 3y agoEasy to have capacity if you outsource everything to manufacturers who aren't terribly diligent bolting down planes.
- Zigurd 3y agoFT article including charts and numbers: https://www.ft.com/content/c08642f5-3aa3-447b-9028-c1c84b8e10fe https://www.ft.com/content/c08642f5-3aa3-447b-9028-c1c84b8e1...
- HumblyTossed 3y ago> If they're losing ticket sales because people don't want to fly on a 737, the airlines will find a way to adapt. Yep, by suing the shit out of Kayak and anyone else doing this.
- aurareturn 3y agoThat's not going to do anything but create even more PR nightmare. If airlines sue Kayak, they'd generate a media storm which will further compel people to do it. It's not hard to see what plane your flight is using. Super easy. Every booking site shows it.
- konschubert 3y agoI sure hope a new competitor pops up. Monopolies are bad.
- Zigurd 3y agoPopping up takes about two decades in commercial aircraft.
- SoftTalker 3y agoLockheed might in theory be able to get back in. Not sure they would want to.
- konschubert 3y agosee that's why I am worried
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoThere’s COMAC in China, not sure if that’s the competition you’re seeking
- belter 3y ago"Alaska Airlines Ad - SNL" - https://youtu.be/IZf0bNDWH4s https://youtu.be/IZf0bNDWH4s
- jjav 3y agoThis Kayak filter is not new, it's been there for a few years (maybe they added more models, not sure, but you've been able to filter out the MAX planes since the crashes).