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US utility firms offer builders cash/trips to fit new homes with gas appliances

vsskanth 3y ago
This is surprising because gas cooking is considered a "premium" feature here in NC, and people look for it during their house search. Personally, it is a better cooking experience than electric. Induction might be the best, but it's still expensive.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  I would literally buy propane camping stove and a big bottle of propane rather than use an electrical stove.
  - PCI-eX16 3y ago
    Why is that?
    - hasty_pudding 3y ago
      Latency on adjustments primarily. If you're cooking a roux for example or sauteing garlic, 30 second latency is enough to ruin them. Also, I have a feeling that the heat is distributed more evenly but no concrete evidence on that.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    Resistive electric? I’m with you, I truly would just go for my own propane supply before going back to that crap. But you can get propane conversion kits for natural gas ranges, no need to get the camping stove. I haven’t had a chance to try electric induction yet. I don’t know anyone who has one.
- bwb 3y ago
  That might be a bit of propaganda from the gas industry over the last 50 years. I heard similar but when i dug into it appeared to be bunk… i cook on electric now and love it.
  - ska 3y ago
    > That might be a bit of propaganda Not really, there are a number of techniques that are harder (some not possible) on electric which has less control and high latency. But ... it only matters if you are going to use such techniques.
    - wharvle 3y ago
      I can’t even cook scrambled eggs well on resistive electric. I mean, I can, but they won’t come out as good and there’s a much higher likelihood I’ll ruin them. Delicate sauces? Getting a custard to come together just right? Maybe some people can, but me, forget about it. This is basic stuff, too, I don’t even know how to do anything fancy. I know that when I finally tried gas it was like “oh, I can cook now!” Toasting flatbread and tortillas directly on the burners is handy. IDK if I can do any of that on induction. I’ve only seen those in-person at the store and at one airbnb. We have a working gas stove and induction’s expensive, so I doubt I’ll own one for another decade or so, at least.
      - RetpolineDrama 3y ago
        Induction is faster, more precise, more efficient/green, safer, and most importantly not spewing toxic crap into your kitchen/living room where you presumably spend time with your family/children. Even with an externally-vented vent hood (most dump back into the room) + make up air system (that most do not have) gas ranges still contaminate your kitchen.
    - bsder 3y ago
      On old school electric. Induction is way better for control and latency than gas. The only issue is if you need to genuinely ignite something (like in wok cooking--but, then, get a blowtorch--if it's good enough for J. Kenji Lopez-Alt it's good enough for you). One real problem is that the standalone induction burners are only 110V in the US and that hamstrings them dramatically. Induction cooktops, however, do not suffer from that issue as they will be wired into 208/220V.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  It's the opposite where I am. People tend to avoid gas. I've even seen people go to the extent of having gas service physically removed from houses they've bought.
  - infecto 3y ago
    Where is that generally? I am super conscious of air quality, would flip my stove but not sure I would rip out gas heat unless it already needed replacement.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I would prefer not to say very specifically, but I'm in a part of the US where electricity is less expensive than gas, which is probably the largest reason why people avoid gas around here. Also, the majority of houses never had gas piped to them in the first place. Most people are used to electric and it's a nonissue for them, so there is little desire to use gas.
- dfxm12 3y ago
  As the article says, gas cooking is poor for our health & the environment. Utility firms have to fight against buyers who are getting more educated about this, along with stricter codes also informed by this knowledge. At some level, you have to decide where you want to be on the axis between your cooking experience & your child's health (if that's a concern in your situation). If you feel induction is too expensive, you may qualify for assistance, under a state program or under the inflation reduction act. Other than that, it's become a bit of an ID Pol issue [0], [1], [2], so I can see why considering it "premium" would be a thing in a sorta purple, sorta red state. 0 - https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-guest-alleges-electric-stoves-are-part-of-government-conspiracy-eventually-they-can-control-that-stove/ https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-guest-alleges-electric-stove... 1 - https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-ways-biden-still-coming-your-gas-stove https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-ways-biden-still-coming-yo... 2 - https://www.axios.com/2023/01/12/gas-stoves-conservative-backlash https://www.axios.com/2023/01/12/gas-stoves-conservative-bac...
  - legitster 3y ago
    The correlation between gas and children's asthma is pretty weak. And there are already existing correlations between gas usage and cold climates, and cold climates and children's asthma. There are also strong correlations between electricity in the home and harm to children, but anyone in their reasonable mind would understand that you can improve consumer protections. So it's a bit of whataboutism to imply that only gas users are making safety tradeoffs.
bob1029 3y ago
I just moved from a home with induction range to one with gas range and I feel like I am on crazy pills waiting for anything to happen now. I get that things like extreme control and wok cooking are a bit difficult on induction, but at least it's ~possible. A consumer gas range simply doesnt put enough effective power into the cookware. This isnt only about boiling water quickly. This is about getting a pan hot enough fast enough to maintain a certain cooking style, even if its kind of half-assed. It might not be perfect, but I can make what I think is really good stir fry on a quality induction range (i.e. one that will actually tolerate movement of the pan without cutting power). I had enough time to order an 1800w portable induction unit while I waited for my kettle to boil via fire this morning. Even the cleanup is 10x better on induction.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  Your place may have an extremely underpowered gas stove? Tons of places do stir fry on gas. Probably the norm I would say. If you go to a hibachi grill, they're doing it right out in the open.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I have a good gas (propane) stove top and the big burner definitely is good for stir-fry. I'm sure many cheaper gas stoves are not as good.
  - brendoelfrendo 3y ago
    A home gas stove in the US will probably make around 10k BTUs. Some have burners designed for high heat cooking that might go over 20k BTUs. Your average wok burner used for stir frying in a restaurant is going to be over 100k BTUs, possibly 200k. To be clear, you can do a tasty stir fry over lower heat; but realize that the commercial wok burners are specialized equipment, and any home gas stove will be underpowered by comparison.
    - hasty_pudding 3y ago
      I don't wok cook. It sounds like the person I was originally responding to doesn't have a complaint with gas stoves but more with the fact that they are no longer cooking on a specialized piece of equipment.
dfxm12 3y ago
The paid appearance came as part of a celebrity-focused program the American Gas Association launched in the 1970s, after the association had reportedly conducted its own research into the health dangers of gas appliances. After finding a link between gas stoves and indoor air pollution, the trade group sponsored shows hosted by Pépin’s frequent collaborator Julia Child, as well as actors Mary Tyler Moore and Doris Day, Rebecca Leber recently reported. (The industry still includes celebrity restaurateurs in its pro-gas campaigns.) This reads like satire, like it could have been a throw away line in Thank You for Smoking, but no, this cartoonish level of villainy is real, and all too common.
abfan1127 3y ago
I won't speak to cooking. But, gas central air heaters are much cheaper to operate than heat pumps in Phoenix, AZ. I wish it wasn't so environmentally speaking. But from a cost point of view, its better to use natural gas than electricity.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  That's just a policy choice. There's no law of physics that makes an electric heat pump cost more.
  - legitster 3y ago
    An electric heat pump by nature has a lot more parts. A gas furnace is just a few sensors, a burner, a fan, and a box to do it in.
    - bob1029 3y ago
      > a fan I think you might be underestimating the # of components in a modern furnace.
      - legitster 3y ago
        I'm intentionally being reductive, but I have worked on several furnaces and gas furnaces are an order of magnitude simpler than their respective heat pump. ... gas furnace + A/C compressor is another story.
  - infecto 3y ago
    How is that policy choice? Are be subsidizing the natural gas suppliers or adding fees to natty generation plants?
    - jeffbee 3y ago
      Retail prices of both electricity and mineral gas are highly regulated. They aren't market outcomes in any sense.
bradfa 3y ago
Natural gas supply companies incentivize their sales channel to install the connection which is needed in order to consume the gas product. This seems like business 101. In many places, heating your home and your domestic hot water is still financially less expensive using natural gas. Sure, there's negatives to using natural gas, but being more expensive is not one of them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
legitster 3y ago
You could rewrite this entire article about the drywall industry, or the plumbing industry, or the lumber industry and it would mostly be the same. You already have to have decided that gas appliances are the bogeyman for this article to elicit any sort of outrage.
fatbird 3y ago
Here in British Columbia, we replaced our gas furnace with a heat pump and received $11,000 in rebates from the provincial and federal governments for doing so. We also replaced our electric stove (that we hated) with induction, not gas (which we loved) due to the health concerns of gas cooking in homes. I'm not surprised the gas industry is resorting to "inducements" to keep gas in vogue. Our last gas appliance is our water heater, and we're considering getting rid of it as well so we're gas free.
elevation 3y ago
You wouldn't have to bribe me to opt for gas. In the past 20 years I've lived through two natural disasters that disrupted residential electrical service for more than a week. While electric utilities struggled to restore service, our gas fireplace gave emergency heat, our gas stove top cooked our food, and our gas water heater made our home the destination for our neighbors to get a hot shower. (The neighbors had gas water heaters too, but the high-efficiency kind that won't light the pilot if 120v isn't present.) Besides the practical benefits, gas energy is significantly cheaper than electric, a distinct advantage as prices inflate.
beej71 3y ago
I don't have gas to my place--they just installed a line on the street, so I could get it relatively cheap now... ... but probably going to get a heat pump instead. Electric heat sucks money, so I'm keen to replace it with something. And now that we've gone from 1 too-hot day per year to 7-8 with smoke, it's a double win.

This is surprising because gas cooking is considered a "premium" feature here in NC, and people look for it during their house search. Personally, it is a better cooking experience than electric. Induction might be the best, but it's still expensive.

hasty_pudding 3y ago
I would literally buy propane camping stove and a big bottle of propane rather than use an electrical stove.
- PCI-eX16 3y ago
  Why is that?
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    Latency on adjustments primarily. If you're cooking a roux for example or sauteing garlic, 30 second latency is enough to ruin them. Also, I have a feeling that the heat is distributed more evenly but no concrete evidence on that.
- wharvle 3y ago
  Resistive electric? I’m with you, I truly would just go for my own propane supply before going back to that crap. But you can get propane conversion kits for natural gas ranges, no need to get the camping stove. I haven’t had a chance to try electric induction yet. I don’t know anyone who has one.
bwb 3y ago
That might be a bit of propaganda from the gas industry over the last 50 years. I heard similar but when i dug into it appeared to be bunk… i cook on electric now and love it.
- ska 3y ago
  > That might be a bit of propaganda Not really, there are a number of techniques that are harder (some not possible) on electric which has less control and high latency. But ... it only matters if you are going to use such techniques.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    I can’t even cook scrambled eggs well on resistive electric. I mean, I can, but they won’t come out as good and there’s a much higher likelihood I’ll ruin them. Delicate sauces? Getting a custard to come together just right? Maybe some people can, but me, forget about it. This is basic stuff, too, I don’t even know how to do anything fancy. I know that when I finally tried gas it was like “oh, I can cook now!” Toasting flatbread and tortillas directly on the burners is handy. IDK if I can do any of that on induction. I’ve only seen those in-person at the store and at one airbnb. We have a working gas stove and induction’s expensive, so I doubt I’ll own one for another decade or so, at least.
    - RetpolineDrama 3y ago
      Induction is faster, more precise, more efficient/green, safer, and most importantly not spewing toxic crap into your kitchen/living room where you presumably spend time with your family/children. Even with an externally-vented vent hood (most dump back into the room) + make up air system (that most do not have) gas ranges still contaminate your kitchen.
  - bsder 3y ago
    On old school electric. Induction is way better for control and latency than gas. The only issue is if you need to genuinely ignite something (like in wok cooking--but, then, get a blowtorch--if it's good enough for J. Kenji Lopez-Alt it's good enough for you). One real problem is that the standalone induction burners are only 110V in the US and that hamstrings them dramatically. Induction cooktops, however, do not suffer from that issue as they will be wired into 208/220V.
JohnFen 3y ago
It's the opposite where I am. People tend to avoid gas. I've even seen people go to the extent of having gas service physically removed from houses they've bought.
- infecto 3y ago
  Where is that generally? I am super conscious of air quality, would flip my stove but not sure I would rip out gas heat unless it already needed replacement.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I would prefer not to say very specifically, but I'm in a part of the US where electricity is less expensive than gas, which is probably the largest reason why people avoid gas around here. Also, the majority of houses never had gas piped to them in the first place. Most people are used to electric and it's a nonissue for them, so there is little desire to use gas.
dfxm12 3y ago
As the article says, gas cooking is poor for our health & the environment. Utility firms have to fight against buyers who are getting more educated about this, along with stricter codes also informed by this knowledge. At some level, you have to decide where you want to be on the axis between your cooking experience & your child's health (if that's a concern in your situation). If you feel induction is too expensive, you may qualify for assistance, under a state program or under the inflation reduction act. Other than that, it's become a bit of an ID Pol issue [0], [1], [2], so I can see why considering it "premium" would be a thing in a sorta purple, sorta red state. 0 - https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-guest-alleges-electric-stoves-are-part-of-government-conspiracy-eventually-they-can-control-that-stove/ https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-guest-alleges-electric-stove... 1 - https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-ways-biden-still-coming-your-gas-stove https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-ways-biden-still-coming-yo... 2 - https://www.axios.com/2023/01/12/gas-stoves-conservative-backlash https://www.axios.com/2023/01/12/gas-stoves-conservative-bac...
- legitster 3y ago
  The correlation between gas and children's asthma is pretty weak. And there are already existing correlations between gas usage and cold climates, and cold climates and children's asthma. There are also strong correlations between electricity in the home and harm to children, but anyone in their reasonable mind would understand that you can improve consumer protections. So it's a bit of whataboutism to imply that only gas users are making safety tradeoffs.

bob1029 3y ago

I just moved from a home with induction range to one with gas range and I feel like I am on crazy pills waiting for anything to happen now. I get that things like extreme control and wok cooking are a bit difficult on induction, but at least it's ~possible. A consumer gas range simply doesnt put enough effective power into the cookware. This isnt only about boiling water quickly. This is about getting a pan hot enough fast enough to maintain a certain cooking style, even if its kind of half-assed. It might not be perfect, but I can make what I think is really good stir fry on a quality induction range (i.e. one that will actually tolerate movement of the pan without cutting power). I had enough time to order an 1800w portable induction unit while I waited for my kettle to boil via fire this morning. Even the cleanup is 10x better on induction.

hasty_pudding 3y ago
Your place may have an extremely underpowered gas stove? Tons of places do stir fry on gas. Probably the norm I would say. If you go to a hibachi grill, they're doing it right out in the open.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I have a good gas (propane) stove top and the big burner definitely is good for stir-fry. I'm sure many cheaper gas stoves are not as good.
- brendoelfrendo 3y ago
  A home gas stove in the US will probably make around 10k BTUs. Some have burners designed for high heat cooking that might go over 20k BTUs. Your average wok burner used for stir frying in a restaurant is going to be over 100k BTUs, possibly 200k. To be clear, you can do a tasty stir fry over lower heat; but realize that the commercial wok burners are specialized equipment, and any home gas stove will be underpowered by comparison.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    I don't wok cook. It sounds like the person I was originally responding to doesn't have a complaint with gas stoves but more with the fact that they are no longer cooking on a specialized piece of equipment.

dfxm12 3y ago

The paid appearance came as part of a celebrity-focused program the American Gas Association launched in the 1970s, after the association had reportedly conducted its own research into the health dangers of gas appliances. After finding a link between gas stoves and indoor air pollution, the trade group sponsored shows hosted by Pépin’s frequent collaborator Julia Child, as well as actors Mary Tyler Moore and Doris Day, Rebecca Leber recently reported. (The industry still includes celebrity restaurateurs in its pro-gas campaigns.) This reads like satire, like it could have been a throw away line in Thank You for Smoking, but no, this cartoonish level of villainy is real, and all too common.

abfan1127 3y ago

I won't speak to cooking. But, gas central air heaters are much cheaper to operate than heat pumps in Phoenix, AZ. I wish it wasn't so environmentally speaking. But from a cost point of view, its better to use natural gas than electricity.

jeffbee 3y ago
That's just a policy choice. There's no law of physics that makes an electric heat pump cost more.
- legitster 3y ago
  An electric heat pump by nature has a lot more parts. A gas furnace is just a few sensors, a burner, a fan, and a box to do it in.
  - bob1029 3y ago
    > a fan I think you might be underestimating the # of components in a modern furnace.
    - legitster 3y ago
      I'm intentionally being reductive, but I have worked on several furnaces and gas furnaces are an order of magnitude simpler than their respective heat pump. ... gas furnace + A/C compressor is another story.
- infecto 3y ago
  How is that policy choice? Are be subsidizing the natural gas suppliers or adding fees to natty generation plants?
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    Retail prices of both electricity and mineral gas are highly regulated. They aren't market outcomes in any sense.

bradfa 3y ago

Natural gas supply companies incentivize their sales channel to install the connection which is needed in order to consume the gas product. This seems like business 101. In many places, heating your home and your domestic hot water is still financially less expensive using natural gas. Sure, there's negatives to using natural gas, but being more expensive is not one of them.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

legitster 3y ago

You could rewrite this entire article about the drywall industry, or the plumbing industry, or the lumber industry and it would mostly be the same. You already have to have decided that gas appliances are the bogeyman for this article to elicit any sort of outrage.

fatbird 3y ago

Here in British Columbia, we replaced our gas furnace with a heat pump and received $11,000 in rebates from the provincial and federal governments for doing so. We also replaced our electric stove (that we hated) with induction, not gas (which we loved) due to the health concerns of gas cooking in homes. I'm not surprised the gas industry is resorting to "inducements" to keep gas in vogue. Our last gas appliance is our water heater, and we're considering getting rid of it as well so we're gas free.

elevation 3y ago

You wouldn't have to bribe me to opt for gas. In the past 20 years I've lived through two natural disasters that disrupted residential electrical service for more than a week. While electric utilities struggled to restore service, our gas fireplace gave emergency heat, our gas stove top cooked our food, and our gas water heater made our home the destination for our neighbors to get a hot shower. (The neighbors had gas water heaters too, but the high-efficiency kind that won't light the pilot if 120v isn't present.) Besides the practical benefits, gas energy is significantly cheaper than electric, a distinct advantage as prices inflate.

beej71 3y ago

I don't have gas to my place--they just installed a line on the street, so I could get it relatively cheap now... ... but probably going to get a heat pump instead. Electric heat sucks money, so I'm keen to replace it with something. And now that we've gone from 1 too-hot day per year to 7-8 with smoke, it's a double win.