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Is it common for Germans to dream about getting out of Germany and moving to US? Congratulations to you that you managed to do that, I am wondering how hard for

Is it common for Germans to dream about getting out of Germany and moving to US? Congratulations to you that you managed to do that, I am wondering how hard for German is to migrate to US to puruse better life here.

Markstar 3y ago
My wife is a researcher in Germany and because of something called the "Wissenschaftszeitgesetz", she is looking for a job outside of Germany for her next research project. With having 2 kids, the US is definitely on our blacklist despite both of us having gone to school there, still keeping in touch with friends from that time and even professors actually offering her a position. We know many others who feel the same, so my impression is that for most Europeans, the US is not a desirable place to live anymore.
- moooo99 3y ago
  > My wife is a researcher in Germany and because of something called the "Wissenschaftszeitgesetz" For a country that prides itself in research and engineering culture, this piece of legislation really is an embarrasment
tinco 3y ago
Not super common, but many people dream of having better jobs and there's few better jobs than software engineering in the US. It's harder to move to the US since Trump cracked down on immigration.
microtonal 3y ago
Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. Everyone prefers the Germany social security/insurance/pension system (even if it’s quite mediocre compared to The Netherlands and Scandinavia).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. And yet GP did, and others more like him. FWIW I had two German bosses who emigrated to the US(one to California, one to Atlanta), so the US is clearly an attractive place for them and they say they loved it there just like GP. The majority of Germans talking about how much they hate the US, have never lived there but they hate it nevertheless because it's a populat thing to hate in Germany, and also they don't work in tech, or need to rely on the welfare state, or are already from well off families where the lower local salaries make no difference. The ones working in tech who don't rely on the welfare state, are quite open to the idea of moving there for the right money. Sure, if GP was one of those Germans from a mid-upper class background with a nice inherited Bavarian house (unaffordable at any German working wage) then immigrating to the US makes no sense as he already would have enough prosperity at home, but if you have no wealth and want to build it, then working in the US tech sector is much better than working in Germany. So no, a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US", as that highly depends on their social/wealth class and career. Edit: seems I upset the apple cart with my comment. Sorry, next time I'm gonna parrot the HN accepted "Germany-Good, US-Bad" party line if that pleases the crowd.
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    > a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US" Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I never said Germans are relying on welfare, I said the Germans WHO rely on welfare would not consider moving to the US for obvious reasons. Nor those who are already financially stable, again for obvious reasons. >I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary. Good to know. Tell us more about yourself.
- pjerem 3y ago
  OP’s story is from 2014-2015. I’m not German but French, however I do feel that this "Silicon Valley dream" upon developers was still existing in this era. It was at that time that we started to have startups in Europe who tried to follow the SV culture. GAFAMs were still seen as cool enough to envy a well paid job at them. A lot of SV startups weren’t openly privacy hostile (or maybe the issue wasn’t took seriously enough). But I felt that this "dream" was only upon developers at that time and it stoped sometimes after. In fact, in 2015, while on a trip to SF, I ate with a former French coworker who decided to live the dream and he was already saying to me that he wanted to come back in Europe because he couldn’t stand the ambiant culture anymore. It wasn’t the job, he loved it, performed well, was well paid. It wasn’t even the people, he made some friends there, felt like people were genuinely nice. But it was more the delusion about the SV-Life and the mismatch in cultural values and in the global society lifestyle in which he felt you were nothing to others / to the society without money. Now I do feel like that this sentiment about the US is now more mainstream in Europe even amongst those who never came in USA. ps : I urge you to not read any criticism in my comment, I’m describing a general sentiment from the other side of an ocean, probably with a big bias. But I do feel this sentiment is pretty recent and it’s probable that Trump made it way worse.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    GP moved to Connecticut though. There's probably less "SV-culture" there.
    - ccozan 3y ago
      CT is also quite close to european culture ( or, as closest possible in US ).
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Trump made me doubt the stability of the US as a system. I don't daydream much of moving to the US anymore.
oaiey 3y ago
It is not common. Most Germans consider would never use the phrase "pursue a better life" when talking about the US. Quality of Life is in most European countries better including Germany. There are however some who want "freedom". Not that they lack freedom in Germany but the spiritual cowboy style, rocky mountain lifestyle freedom. Another reason for migration are obviously job offers in some industries.
- thighbaugh 3y ago
  As an American who values the quality of my life, there is little I wouldn't give for a working permit in any EU country, especially Germany. The grass is always greener I suppose, or maybe something of an ancestral longing (my paternal ancestor wasn't a willing emigrant, just a captured mercenary with no capo to negotiate with the British for the fare back to his Hessian homeland). Maybe a rarer inclination at present, but in another 50 years I doubt it still will be. It costs 40% less to live in Berlin (on average) than to live in my the fair Verona where I lay my scene, the San Francisco Bay Area, 40% less and a completely functional social safety net that doesn't let its old people starve to death on the streets! I am not sure what anyone means when they say freedom, its an amorphous concept but starving to death in the cold, that's a more visceral and topical thing I can see the hideous reality of by walking a block in any direction in SF. There but for God's grace go I.
  - WentFullRetard 3y ago
    [dead]
  - pokepim 3y ago
    [dead]
- tomthe 3y ago
  This is my view as well. However, if you are a young and healthy software developer, you can earn much more money in the US.
  - scrim 3y ago
Roritharr 3y ago
I know I do and the amount of engineers in my circle that do is sharply increasing in the last couple of years.
Kelkonosemmel 3y ago
I rarely think about it but not for more freedom. For making more money for 5 years or so to retire earlier. But than I think about the bigger social gap and dislike the idea again.
rjzzleep 3y ago
This is vastly different for native Germans and immigrant Germans. There are even some papers about how having a Turkish name immediately cuts your chances of getting a response to your job application in half. German job applications also require a photo on the application. For a lot of immigrant Germans leaving Germany is very much a goal, since upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US. So for a lot of "German Germans" the answer is no, but for the rest it very much is something people aspire to. If you look at the statistics I believe outward migration is a little under inward migration, but I'd wager that there are a lot more people with higher ed moving out than are moving in. I complain about the US a lot, but for me both the US and the UK were vastly better for my mental health and career than Germany was, even despite the average standard of living in Europe being much higher.
- __jonas 3y ago
  > German job applications also require a photo on the application. I don't disagree with the rest of your comment but this is not true. Technically an employer cannot legally require you to attach a picture to your application or judge you any differently if you do not attach one, since the AGG passed in 2006 – although I don't doubt that it plays out different in practice sometimes. I remember even being told in Highschool though that we shouldn't attach a picture to job applications, since it's generally not done anymore to avoid discrimination.
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    Yes technically, and how could you possibly enforce that? There is no rule forbidding it, so by default most employers still require it in their applications, but if they don't and you don't supply it, they will be suspicious. There is no way around that problem unless that practice is explicitly banned. Instead, you just get this weird workaround, that doesn't technically ban it, but makes it completely unenforceable, giving the German bureaucratic system an excuse that they addressed the issue without ever having to address it.
  - dranudin 3y ago
    I got all of my developer jobs in Germany without a photo.

Markstar 3y ago

My wife is a researcher in Germany and because of something called the "Wissenschaftszeitgesetz", she is looking for a job outside of Germany for her next research project. With having 2 kids, the US is definitely on our blacklist despite both of us having gone to school there, still keeping in touch with friends from that time and even professors actually offering her a position. We know many others who feel the same, so my impression is that for most Europeans, the US is not a desirable place to live anymore.

moooo99 3y ago
> My wife is a researcher in Germany and because of something called the "Wissenschaftszeitgesetz" For a country that prides itself in research and engineering culture, this piece of legislation really is an embarrasment

tinco 3y ago

Not super common, but many people dream of having better jobs and there's few better jobs than software engineering in the US. It's harder to move to the US since Trump cracked down on immigration.

microtonal 3y ago

Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. Everyone prefers the Germany social security/insurance/pension system (even if it’s quite mediocre compared to The Netherlands and Scandinavia).

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. And yet GP did, and others more like him. FWIW I had two German bosses who emigrated to the US(one to California, one to Atlanta), so the US is clearly an attractive place for them and they say they loved it there just like GP. The majority of Germans talking about how much they hate the US, have never lived there but they hate it nevertheless because it's a populat thing to hate in Germany, and also they don't work in tech, or need to rely on the welfare state, or are already from well off families where the lower local salaries make no difference. The ones working in tech who don't rely on the welfare state, are quite open to the idea of moving there for the right money. Sure, if GP was one of those Germans from a mid-upper class background with a nice inherited Bavarian house (unaffordable at any German working wage) then immigrating to the US makes no sense as he already would have enough prosperity at home, but if you have no wealth and want to build it, then working in the US tech sector is much better than working in Germany. So no, a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US", as that highly depends on their social/wealth class and career. Edit: seems I upset the apple cart with my comment. Sorry, next time I'm gonna parrot the HN accepted "Germany-Good, US-Bad" party line if that pleases the crowd.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US" Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US. I never said Germans are relying on welfare, I said the Germans WHO rely on welfare would not consider moving to the US for obvious reasons. Nor those who are already financially stable, again for obvious reasons. >I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary. Good to know. Tell us more about yourself.
pjerem 3y ago
OP’s story is from 2014-2015. I’m not German but French, however I do feel that this "Silicon Valley dream" upon developers was still existing in this era. It was at that time that we started to have startups in Europe who tried to follow the SV culture. GAFAMs were still seen as cool enough to envy a well paid job at them. A lot of SV startups weren’t openly privacy hostile (or maybe the issue wasn’t took seriously enough). But I felt that this "dream" was only upon developers at that time and it stoped sometimes after. In fact, in 2015, while on a trip to SF, I ate with a former French coworker who decided to live the dream and he was already saying to me that he wanted to come back in Europe because he couldn’t stand the ambiant culture anymore. It wasn’t the job, he loved it, performed well, was well paid. It wasn’t even the people, he made some friends there, felt like people were genuinely nice. But it was more the delusion about the SV-Life and the mismatch in cultural values and in the global society lifestyle in which he felt you were nothing to others / to the society without money. Now I do feel like that this sentiment about the US is now more mainstream in Europe even amongst those who never came in USA. ps : I urge you to not read any criticism in my comment, I’m describing a general sentiment from the other side of an ocean, probably with a big bias. But I do feel this sentiment is pretty recent and it’s probable that Trump made it way worse.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  GP moved to Connecticut though. There's probably less "SV-culture" there.
  - ccozan 3y ago
    CT is also quite close to european culture ( or, as closest possible in US ).
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Trump made me doubt the stability of the US as a system. I don't daydream much of moving to the US anymore.

oaiey 3y ago

It is not common. Most Germans consider would never use the phrase "pursue a better life" when talking about the US. Quality of Life is in most European countries better including Germany. There are however some who want "freedom". Not that they lack freedom in Germany but the spiritual cowboy style, rocky mountain lifestyle freedom. Another reason for migration are obviously job offers in some industries.

thighbaugh 3y ago
As an American who values the quality of my life, there is little I wouldn't give for a working permit in any EU country, especially Germany. The grass is always greener I suppose, or maybe something of an ancestral longing (my paternal ancestor wasn't a willing emigrant, just a captured mercenary with no capo to negotiate with the British for the fare back to his Hessian homeland). Maybe a rarer inclination at present, but in another 50 years I doubt it still will be. It costs 40% less to live in Berlin (on average) than to live in my the fair Verona where I lay my scene, the San Francisco Bay Area, 40% less and a completely functional social safety net that doesn't let its old people starve to death on the streets! I am not sure what anyone means when they say freedom, its an amorphous concept but starving to death in the cold, that's a more visceral and topical thing I can see the hideous reality of by walking a block in any direction in SF. There but for God's grace go I.
- WentFullRetard 3y ago
  [dead]
- pokepim 3y ago
  [dead]
tomthe 3y ago
This is my view as well. However, if you are a young and healthy software developer, you can earn much more money in the US.
- scrim 3y ago

Roritharr 3y ago

I know I do and the amount of engineers in my circle that do is sharply increasing in the last couple of years.

Kelkonosemmel 3y ago

I rarely think about it but not for more freedom. For making more money for 5 years or so to retire earlier. But than I think about the bigger social gap and dislike the idea again.

rjzzleep 3y ago

This is vastly different for native Germans and immigrant Germans. There are even some papers about how having a Turkish name immediately cuts your chances of getting a response to your job application in half. German job applications also require a photo on the application. For a lot of immigrant Germans leaving Germany is very much a goal, since upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US. So for a lot of "German Germans" the answer is no, but for the rest it very much is something people aspire to. If you look at the statistics I believe outward migration is a little under inward migration, but I'd wager that there are a lot more people with higher ed moving out than are moving in. I complain about the US a lot, but for me both the US and the UK were vastly better for my mental health and career than Germany was, even despite the average standard of living in Europe being much higher.

__jonas 3y ago
> German job applications also require a photo on the application. I don't disagree with the rest of your comment but this is not true. Technically an employer cannot legally require you to attach a picture to your application or judge you any differently if you do not attach one, since the AGG passed in 2006 – although I don't doubt that it plays out different in practice sometimes. I remember even being told in Highschool though that we shouldn't attach a picture to job applications, since it's generally not done anymore to avoid discrimination.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  Yes technically, and how could you possibly enforce that? There is no rule forbidding it, so by default most employers still require it in their applications, but if they don't and you don't supply it, they will be suspicious. There is no way around that problem unless that practice is explicitly banned. Instead, you just get this weird workaround, that doesn't technically ban it, but makes it completely unenforceable, giving the German bureaucratic system an excuse that they addressed the issue without ever having to address it.
- dranudin 3y ago
  I got all of my developer jobs in Germany without a photo.