8 ms·

Apple's called Android a "massive tracking device" in an internal presentation

52 points by mdwalters 3y ago

al_borland 3y ago
That’s really all any of Google’s “free” products are. Everything they do is to collect data to feed AdWords. They are an ad business masquerading as several other tech businesses, and all roads lead back to AdWords.
- repelsteeltje 3y ago
  Yes, true. But "learning" about this public secret from Apple seems somewhat disingenuous. If Android is a cheap rip off device for collecting user data, what device is it a rip off of?! And doesn't Apple collect over 25 billion annually for offering similar services to Google? [Added from article] > Ironically, despite Apple describing Android as a massive tracking device, an internal Google email from 2016 about Apple and Google’s deal shows how Apple wanted data sharing with Google to be reciprocal. > In the email, the Google exec notes that they told Apple that Google doesn’t share information about what users click on in Google Search. > However, a reply to that email includes a redacted data exchange proposal, raising questions about what user data Google could be sharing with Apple.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - al_borland 3y ago
    >If Android is a cheap rip off device for collecting user data, what device is it a rip off of? The device is a rip off of iPhone/iOS, obviously, but the intent behind them is different. Gmail didn't invent email, Google Maps didn't invent internet maps, Google Drive didn't invent cloud storage, Chrome didn't invent the browser... Google cloning and offering these products/services up was done with tracking added for the purpose of boosting AdWords revenue. Google has ripped off many products, from many companies, adds in a bunch of tracking, and it becomes another arm of their data collection beast. The products they rip off may have not been used for collecting user data, but Google ripped them off and continues offering the services, because of the data collection possibilities. > In the email, the Google exec notes that they told Apple that Google doesn’t share information about what users click on in Google Search. They don't need to share the information, because all the Google products collecting the data, and the services using it for profit, are all in-house. This doesn't mean they aren't collecting and using the data, just that it's their competitive advantage for AdWords and it's far more valuable for them to keep and use themselves.
    - repelsteeltje 3y ago
      > The device is a rip off of iPhone/iOS, obviously, but the intent behind them is different. As a developer I care a lot about intent, too: if we confuse what a program does with what it's supposed to be doing it gets hard to see what bug to fix. And I also agree that in all those cases Google was motivated by the fear of being locked out. Locked out by open standards, ousted by Apple as they did with facebook, kept in the dark by Mozilla for refusing third party cookies or choosing a competing default search engine. ...Except that those fears in case of Apple were unwarranted. Apple sells "secure hardware" to customers, but is equally happy to sell those customers to Google, or anyone that pays a little to be in their app store. There are limits, but there are also limits to what Android allows. So in practice, even though their intent might be different, the outcome barely is. I recently discovered about Stafford Beers' POSIWID [1] and I suppose that from that angle, Apple's attribution of Android is basically describing their iPhone just as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
- tazjin 3y ago
  You can use Android completely without any proprietary Google stuff. You can't do the same with iOS.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    I use iOS without any proprietary Google stuff, so you absolutely can.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - doix 3y ago
      Ha! This joke is straight out of radio Yerevan[0]: > Radio Yerevan was asked: "Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the USSR (in some versions, Russia), just like in the USA?" Radio Yerevan answered: "In principle, yes. In the USA, you can stand in front of the White House and yell, “Down with Reagan!”, and you will not be punished. Equally, you can also stand in the Red Square in Moscow and yell, “Down with Reagan!”, and you will not be punished." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        We had a different joke: "America is so free, that I piss in front of Bush as he's passing by me." "It's the same in Russia. I also piss when Putin passes by me. Except I don't take it out of my pants."
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Now try using it without any proprietary Apple stuff :)
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    A few weeks ago there was an article about Microsoft, Bing and Edge and their tracking of users, and it struck me that if Microsoft cared about mobile at this point, they are in a pretty good position to push a de-Google Android. Microsoft has all the expertise in partnering with vendors and getting them to ship their operating systems, they have a rough idea about how to run an app store and they have access to developer. A de-Google, privacy focused Microsoft Android, with a Microsoft store, the ability to run native Android apps and perhaps .Net application, pushed by Microsoft sales and vendor channel seems pretty interesting to me. But Microsoft doesn't care about neither privacy, nor mobile and practically no phone manufacturers really care to ship anything but Android at this point.
- germandiago 3y ago
  on the other hand you get it for free and their products serve a purpose... we are free to go for alternatives. If we use it is because they are useful. Do not misunderstand me, I am the first person to not be satisfied with these things. That is why I self host things most of the time and I avoid using Cloud services of any kind.
mcphage 3y ago
Are we supposed to be nice about our competitors in internal messages? Oops. Heck, I'm not even always nice about my company's own products, in internal messages.
sogjis 3y ago
Those are some strong words from someone who makes it very hard to easily enable/disable gps, bluetooth, wifi
- brookst 3y ago
  I think they meant it reports tracking data to Google, not that the phone tracks its environment with those techs. Apple’s AirTag implementation is very elegant and does not result in user or AirTag location being revealed to Apple or other users. It’s hard to imagine Google shipping that kind of design.
  - jacooper 3y ago
    It just makes stalking incredibly easy, elegant!
    - nicky0 3y ago
      That's somewhat in the nature of a tracking device.
      - brookst 3y ago
        Exactly. You can argue the morality of shipping a tracking device at all, but that's a totally different question than whether such a product should let the company track users or devices.
- bangonkeyboard 3y ago
  Apple devices don't even actually turn off anymore when you try to power them down. They blank the screen and continue reporting their location.
  - swagempire 3y ago
    No, it's even worse -- they say something like "your phone is still findable." Wtf?!
drcongo 3y ago
Seems fair.
jeffbee 3y ago
It's easy for Apple to say they don't link data between services when Apple offers no services of any particular value. Clearly Apple does not combine iOS data with their search engine, which doesn't exist. Then oddly it goes on to imply that separate sign-on for iCloud and App Store and iTunes are somehow benefits to the user when in my experience those are clear anti-features. I do not, ever, want to be prompted for my password when getting a free app from the App Store and that happens all the fucking time.
- ghusto 3y ago
  > Apple offers no services of any particular value Here is a list of Apple's services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Apple_Inc._services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Apple_Inc._services They are of value to most people with Apple hardware, and many without > Clearly Apple does not combine iOS data with their search engine, which doesn't exist That's ... correct? What was the purpose of this statement? > Then oddly it goes on to imply that separate sign-on for iCloud and App Store and iTunes are somehow benefits to the user when in my experience those are clear anti-features They don't _force_ separate sign-on, they allow it. As in, obviously it is convenient to use the same Apple ID for everything, but if you have reason to want to use a different ID (privacy reasons, or older hardware with different capabilities) you can. Google does not allow this because it would dilute your ID (and therefore worth in ads). > I do not, ever, want to be prompted for my password when getting a free app from the App Store and that happens all the fucking time Change that simple setting? I'm not even an iPhone user, but man ...
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    iOS doesn't respect the setting.
greatgib 3y ago
Forced system wide sign-in is probably the worse. Being unable to use an email app for gmail without having the account fully associated with the device.
- chupchap 3y ago
  You can still use mobile browser or third-party email apps?
  - greatgib 3y ago
    Nope, almost impossible. Because Gmail force to login with oauth2, and the embedded browser that you can have in any third-party mobile app is restricted to do the oauth2 by itself without going through the android official popup that will connect system wide. Indeed you can still browse Gmail with the mobile web browser but it is very inconvenient, not ergonomic or limited and it is not like a email app. Also, btw, when you connect to Gmail or any google thing in the web browser, your whole web browser will use this Google profile for everything also.
spullara 3y ago
It is the Google Pixel, an IRL tracking pixel.

52 points by mdwalters 3y ago

That’s really all any of Google’s “free” products are. Everything they do is to collect data to feed AdWords. They are an ad business masquerading as several other tech businesses, and all roads lead back to AdWords.

repelsteeltje 3y ago
Yes, true. But "learning" about this public secret from Apple seems somewhat disingenuous. If Android is a cheap rip off device for collecting user data, what device is it a rip off of?! And doesn't Apple collect over 25 billion annually for offering similar services to Google? [Added from article] > Ironically, despite Apple describing Android as a massive tracking device, an internal Google email from 2016 about Apple and Google’s deal shows how Apple wanted data sharing with Google to be reciprocal. > In the email, the Google exec notes that they told Apple that Google doesn’t share information about what users click on in Google Search. > However, a reply to that email includes a redacted data exchange proposal, raising questions about what user data Google could be sharing with Apple.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- al_borland 3y ago
  >If Android is a cheap rip off device for collecting user data, what device is it a rip off of? The device is a rip off of iPhone/iOS, obviously, but the intent behind them is different. Gmail didn't invent email, Google Maps didn't invent internet maps, Google Drive didn't invent cloud storage, Chrome didn't invent the browser... Google cloning and offering these products/services up was done with tracking added for the purpose of boosting AdWords revenue. Google has ripped off many products, from many companies, adds in a bunch of tracking, and it becomes another arm of their data collection beast. The products they rip off may have not been used for collecting user data, but Google ripped them off and continues offering the services, because of the data collection possibilities. > In the email, the Google exec notes that they told Apple that Google doesn’t share information about what users click on in Google Search. They don't need to share the information, because all the Google products collecting the data, and the services using it for profit, are all in-house. This doesn't mean they aren't collecting and using the data, just that it's their competitive advantage for AdWords and it's far more valuable for them to keep and use themselves.
  - repelsteeltje 3y ago
    > The device is a rip off of iPhone/iOS, obviously, but the intent behind them is different. As a developer I care a lot about intent, too: if we confuse what a program does with what it's supposed to be doing it gets hard to see what bug to fix. And I also agree that in all those cases Google was motivated by the fear of being locked out. Locked out by open standards, ousted by Apple as they did with facebook, kept in the dark by Mozilla for refusing third party cookies or choosing a competing default search engine. ...Except that those fears in case of Apple were unwarranted. Apple sells "secure hardware" to customers, but is equally happy to sell those customers to Google, or anyone that pays a little to be in their app store. There are limits, but there are also limits to what Android allows. So in practice, even though their intent might be different, the outcome barely is. I recently discovered about Stafford Beers' POSIWID [1] and I suppose that from that angle, Apple's attribution of Android is basically describing their iPhone just as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
tazjin 3y ago
You can use Android completely without any proprietary Google stuff. You can't do the same with iOS.
- drcongo 3y ago
  I use iOS without any proprietary Google stuff, so you absolutely can.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - doix 3y ago
    Ha! This joke is straight out of radio Yerevan[0]: > Radio Yerevan was asked: "Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the USSR (in some versions, Russia), just like in the USA?" Radio Yerevan answered: "In principle, yes. In the USA, you can stand in front of the White House and yell, “Down with Reagan!”, and you will not be punished. Equally, you can also stand in the Red Square in Moscow and yell, “Down with Reagan!”, and you will not be punished." [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      We had a different joke: "America is so free, that I piss in front of Bush as he's passing by me." "It's the same in Russia. I also piss when Putin passes by me. Except I don't take it out of my pants."
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Now try using it without any proprietary Apple stuff :)
- mrweasel 3y ago
  A few weeks ago there was an article about Microsoft, Bing and Edge and their tracking of users, and it struck me that if Microsoft cared about mobile at this point, they are in a pretty good position to push a de-Google Android. Microsoft has all the expertise in partnering with vendors and getting them to ship their operating systems, they have a rough idea about how to run an app store and they have access to developer. A de-Google, privacy focused Microsoft Android, with a Microsoft store, the ability to run native Android apps and perhaps .Net application, pushed by Microsoft sales and vendor channel seems pretty interesting to me. But Microsoft doesn't care about neither privacy, nor mobile and practically no phone manufacturers really care to ship anything but Android at this point.
germandiago 3y ago
on the other hand you get it for free and their products serve a purpose... we are free to go for alternatives. If we use it is because they are useful. Do not misunderstand me, I am the first person to not be satisfied with these things. That is why I self host things most of the time and I avoid using Cloud services of any kind.

mcphage 3y ago

Are we supposed to be nice about our competitors in internal messages? Oops. Heck, I'm not even always nice about my company's own products, in internal messages.

sogjis 3y ago

Those are some strong words from someone who makes it very hard to easily enable/disable gps, bluetooth, wifi

brookst 3y ago
I think they meant it reports tracking data to Google, not that the phone tracks its environment with those techs. Apple’s AirTag implementation is very elegant and does not result in user or AirTag location being revealed to Apple or other users. It’s hard to imagine Google shipping that kind of design.
- jacooper 3y ago
  It just makes stalking incredibly easy, elegant!
  - nicky0 3y ago
    That's somewhat in the nature of a tracking device.
    - brookst 3y ago
      Exactly. You can argue the morality of shipping a tracking device at all, but that's a totally different question than whether such a product should let the company track users or devices.
bangonkeyboard 3y ago
Apple devices don't even actually turn off anymore when you try to power them down. They blank the screen and continue reporting their location.
- swagempire 3y ago
  No, it's even worse -- they say something like "your phone is still findable." Wtf?!

drcongo 3y ago

Seems fair.

jeffbee 3y ago

It's easy for Apple to say they don't link data between services when Apple offers no services of any particular value. Clearly Apple does not combine iOS data with their search engine, which doesn't exist. Then oddly it goes on to imply that separate sign-on for iCloud and App Store and iTunes are somehow benefits to the user when in my experience those are clear anti-features. I do not, ever, want to be prompted for my password when getting a free app from the App Store and that happens all the fucking time.

ghusto 3y ago
> Apple offers no services of any particular value Here is a list of Apple's services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Apple_Inc._services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Apple_Inc._services They are of value to most people with Apple hardware, and many without > Clearly Apple does not combine iOS data with their search engine, which doesn't exist That's ... correct? What was the purpose of this statement? > Then oddly it goes on to imply that separate sign-on for iCloud and App Store and iTunes are somehow benefits to the user when in my experience those are clear anti-features They don't _force_ separate sign-on, they allow it. As in, obviously it is convenient to use the same Apple ID for everything, but if you have reason to want to use a different ID (privacy reasons, or older hardware with different capabilities) you can. Google does not allow this because it would dilute your ID (and therefore worth in ads). > I do not, ever, want to be prompted for my password when getting a free app from the App Store and that happens all the fucking time Change that simple setting? I'm not even an iPhone user, but man ...
- jeffbee 3y ago
  iOS doesn't respect the setting.

greatgib 3y ago

Forced system wide sign-in is probably the worse. Being unable to use an email app for gmail without having the account fully associated with the device.

chupchap 3y ago
You can still use mobile browser or third-party email apps?
- greatgib 3y ago
  Nope, almost impossible. Because Gmail force to login with oauth2, and the embedded browser that you can have in any third-party mobile app is restricted to do the oauth2 by itself without going through the android official popup that will connect system wide. Indeed you can still browse Gmail with the mobile web browser but it is very inconvenient, not ergonomic or limited and it is not like a email app. Also, btw, when you connect to Gmail or any google thing in the web browser, your whole web browser will use this Google profile for everything also.

spullara 3y ago

It is the Google Pixel, an IRL tracking pixel.