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The Darién Gap
- mytailorisrich 3y agoI've always thought that "too expensive and detrimental to the environment" was a bit 'too simple, sometimes naive' for an explanation. Panama was split from Colombia thanks to the US right before the Panama Canal was built. So an obvious line of thought is that the Gap has a defensive purpose to keep both sides well apart. It also helps reduce the flow of people.
- bogota 3y agoSeems like recently that hasn’t been the case as the economic situation in South America continues to worsen more people are crossing on foot. Strange to be downvoted for pointing out the stats on the linked wiki article.
- my12parsecs 3y agoI wonder whether the Darien Gap or the US-Mexico border (and surrounding deserts) is more dangerous to cross illegally.
- OfSanguineFire 3y agoThe US–Mexico border is so long and varied, danger is going to vary significantly. I cycled the Baja Divide cycling route, which starts from San Diego and goes through the nearby Otay Mountain wilderness reserve before reaching the Mexican border. The trails around Otay are littered with backpacks dropped by migrants, and when I asked a CBP officer parked in his car monitoring the area, he said that patrols were only partly successful and aliens were constantly getting through. It’s just a few km of walking before a migrant will hit a paved road where a prearranged contact can pick him up. Compared to descriptions of crossing the desert farther east, this seemed pretty safe, with the main risk the waste of days and months if one is caught by Mexican or US authorities.
- returningfory2 3y agoThere’s a good video in which a YouTube creator gets a tour around the US-Mexico border with an Arizona sheriff and discusses these kinds of issues: https://youtu.be/GdYAYgbf5Uc?si=RD8b8NTfxsyv0urz https://youtu.be/GdYAYgbf5Uc?si=RD8b8NTfxsyv0urz There’s also a Texas sheriff video, but the Arizona video is more interesting IMO because the sheriff knows more about how immigration law impacts border enforcement.
- readthenotes1 3y agoIn the other thread posted on this Gap, I commented that over a quarter of a million people have crossed it already this year, over 60,000 of them being children. It may be dangerous in an absolutist sense, but it is no longer apparently as dangerous as it was 10 years ago.
- urbandw311er 3y agoI’ve always been fascinated by the Darien gap. There’s a TV show here in the Uk called “race across the world” and in last season they had to cross the gap. Was really hoping for racing jeeps and armed militia but sadly (and sensibly) they took a boat.
- andrewjf 3y agoMay I recommend “long way up” as well (although they also took a boat). They travel from Ushuaia to Canada, and talked about the Darién Gap, I don’t recall how in depth.
- hermitcrab 3y agoThe whole trilogy of 'long way round', 'long way down' and 'long way up' are well worth a watch. Especially if you like travel and motorbikes.
- lsllc 3y agoSeconded. Long Way Up is entertaining, interesting and has some incredible cinematography. It's also great that Ewan and Charlie rode all-electric Harleys and the crew had pre-production Rivian's (the with the very first 2 Rivian "production" VINs). BTW: It was actually Ushuaia to LA, not Canada.
- andrewjf 3y agoAhh right, Los Angeles. I remember now. Should have called the series “half way up”
- grecy 3y agoI drove the entire Pan-American Highway (shipped around the Darien). Getting to see the Panama Canal and the whole region was just one of hundreds of highlights. It's commonly done now, and you can totally do it yourself in any vehicle.
- nocoiner 3y ago
- xdfil 3y agoThis guy claims to have ridden his bike from Alaska to Argentina and doesn't even mention crossing the gap. https://explorersweb.com/teen-cycles-alaska-argentina/ https://explorersweb.com/teen-cycles-alaska-argentina/ I thought the story was problematic the moment I heard it. I met someone who crossed the gap while migrating to the United States from Africa. When I asked what they thought about someone riding a bicycle through it, they shook their head. They said even carrying a bike would be problematic because there are parts which require you to climb.
- honorious 3y agoNo need to doubt his story. Very likely he took a boat, like many touring cyclist doing the Pan-American route do. It is a relatively established route. If you really want to be self-reliant, the amazing Iohan Gueorguiev bike-raft it, but that's quite on the extreme side.
- PUSH_AX 3y agoMost likely took a boat past that area.
- OfSanguineFire 3y agoAlaska–Ushuaia cyclists commonly take a boat around the gap. It is a bit more expensive than flying, but it allows one to claim that one did the journey entirely overland. (Recently a few cyclists have bought packrafts and paddled along the coast themselves instead of paying for someone else’s boat.) You shouldn’t think the story was “problematic”, the cyclist was validly describing the journey as typically done. That said, there are multiple recent accounts of cyclists crossing the gap. Indeed, it is a tiresome hike-a-bike because you can’t actually cycle much, but from the account by a German cyclist I read a few months ago, I don’t recall any climbing. It’s worth mentioning that even a traversal of the gap will involve leaving land and going over water along the rivers at some points.
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- f5ve 3y agoIn the 1690's the Scottish invested an enormous sum of money and human capital to settle this region. The goal was to build and profit from an overland route to ferry cargo from the Pacific to the Atlantic, similar to the Panama Canal today. Due to disease, less-than-accommodating natives, and geopolitical climate, the scheme failed miserably. Many argue the crippling financial effect on Scotland was a key factor in the 1707 Acts of Union which merged Scotland and England.
- dfawcus 3y agoThere was more to the Scottish colony in Darien failing than just that, the English state had a hand in it, and an incentive to ensure it failed. As to the post failure financial effect, that was mainly on a bunch of rich folks. Scotland per-se was not in any financial distress after the failure of the scheme, as it was private individuals, not the state which had invested. Have a read of this piece, which covers a lot of the history around the failure of the Darien Scheme. https://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-skintland-britnat-mythology-and-the-darien-scheme/ https://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-skintland-britna...
- jrmg 3y agoI enjoyed this book about it: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18271029-the-darien-disaster https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18271029-the-darien-disa.... It was written in the late 60s, but it looks like it's been republished more than a few times since then: https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=%93Darien%94+%93John+Prebble%22 https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=%93Darien...
- CodeNest 3y agoYes, very good book.
- 3dbrows 3y agoI’m not sure it was mainly rich folks who suffered. Many small scale investors also lost money. So severe were the losses that something like 25% of private wealth in Scotland was destroyed. Some argue we are still feeling the effects of this today. It certainly didn’t help with social attitudes towards being miserly with money (which we very much are).
- euroderf 3y agoIt feels like an admission of failure on the part of civil engineering culture.
- hermitcrab 3y agoWould it be a triumph of engineering culture to pave over the whole world?
- arrowsmith 3y agoProbably, just not a triumph for everybody else.
- kortilla 3y agoNo. There is a clear demand for a route here that has not been met. There is no demand for paving over the world.
- baq 3y agoWell, there’s also clear demand for not having any paved route through there.
- speed_spread 3y agoObligatory NNTP throwback https://alt.pavethe.earth/ https://alt.pavethe.earth/
- smallerfish 3y agoRelated current thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972271
- paulgerhardt 3y agoRecommend the 1970’s Land Rover documentary of a British expedition supported by 60 army core engineers successfully crossing the gap: https://youtu.be/u31yhCmIJ5E?si=GlpzSSvKZzxTn2FE https://youtu.be/u31yhCmIJ5E?si=GlpzSSvKZzxTn2FE There’s a lot of YouTube spam of people talking about the gap but precious little content from people who have done it.
- jddj 3y agoRandom related anecdote. I met a guy in Colombia who was cycling from Canada to Patagonia. He'd made it all the way to the border according to his maps but was stopped by armed military/paramilitary troops and sent back to Panama by river in a dinghy full of (or made to appear to be full of) bananas. In the end he had to fly that leg. It's also common to sail it, Panama city to Cartagena, but the other direction makes for a smoother trip.
- grecy 3y agoI drove the length of the Pan-American, and shipped my Jeep around in a shipping container. Even back in 2008 when I did it, I met a few backpackers that had crossed the Darien on foot. You take a bus and then hitchhike as far south as you possibly can. Talk to locals, figure something out. Someone will know of a crappy boat or canoe or something to take you a few hours through the swap and then you're on land again. Hitchhike, bus, whatever until you pop out somewhere in Colombia.
- jddj 3y agoI'd heard similar stories as well. We both suspected that he had been unlucky to come across whoever it was. This was 2016 or thereabouts.
- rvba 3y agoEntering a crapy boat or canoe in a place known to be run by drug smugglers and gangs sound like an easy way to disappear without trace after being robbed and murdered.
- dehrmann 3y ago> Talk to locals, figure something out. That's a very optimistic approach for such a deadly trip.
- grecy 3y ago> That's a very optimistic approach for such a deadly trip Yes, optimism is a requirement for any major undertaking. That is exactly how I spent two years driving 40,000 miles from Alaska to Argentina, and also how I spent three years driving 54,000 miles right around the coastline of Africa.
- ulrischa 3y agoMany secrets about that place: Legends abound of a lost city of gold, sometimes called "El Dorado," in South America. While many associate this legend with places further south, some tales and searches for this city have placed it within the Darien Gap. Over the centuries, various explorers and adventurers have ventured into the Darien Gap, drawn by the allure of this hidden treasure. Yet, the dense jungle and the formidable challenges of the environment have kept many secrets concealed, and no concrete evidence of such a city in the Darien Gap has ever been found. Still, the legend persists and adds a layer of mystique to this already enigmatic region.
- ingenieros 3y agoI'd like to see your sources because this is the first time I'm hearing about this and I'm Colombian! For starters, the Muiscas never inhabited that region so this wild claim makes no sense at all! https://colombia.travel/es/bogota/conoce-la-laguna-de-guatavita-y-la-leyenda-de-el-dorado https://colombia.travel/es/bogota/conoce-la-laguna-de-guatav... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado
- ulrischa 3y agohttps://www.enotes.com/topics/legend-el-dorado/critical-essays/criticism-overviews-999665 https://www.enotes.com/topics/legend-el-dorado/critical-essa...
- ingenieros 3y agoIt's a shame that this is behind a paywall and I already used my free enotes trial a long time ago.
- mportela 3y agoThere it goes: https://pastes.io/scz4fssmyk https://pastes.io/scz4fssmyk
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- jpcfl 3y agoI know several people who have made the foot journey across the Darién, and have heard many horror stories about it. When I was in Bogotá last year, I met a Venezuelan man selling art painted on Bolivares. Inflation is so bad in Venezuela that Bolivares are practically worthless as currency. (There's also a beautiful irony that painting a picture of Che Guevara on a Bolivar makes it more valuable.) Many of his pieces were portraits of people who crossed the Darién fleeing Venezuela. He seemed to have a story for all of them. Most of them were working-class folks, engineers, teachers, lawyers. He himself was a former oil engineer who left Venezuela because of the economic collapse. These stories made me really appreciate everything I take for granted.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago> When I was in Bogotá last year, I met a Venezuelan man selling art ... Many of his pieces were portraits of people who crossed the Darién fleeing Venezuela. Maybe I'm missing something. Folks are fleeing Venezuela. They pass thru Columbia and crossed the Darién into Panama. How did the guy in Bogotá meet people who crossed the Darién? Edit: Never mind. I think you meant: portraits of people who were going to cross the Darién, now having fled Venezuela.
- jpcfl 3y agoI don't think he met any of the people in the portraits personally. He said he learned of these people and their stories through social media, at least the ones we talked about.
- codeadict 3y agoI crossed the Darien gap escaping from Cuba to the US. I still have nightmares about it 8 years later, the nature was impressing now that i think back and we found some nice/helpful communities there but got some kind of parasite on my feet from crossing a river and had to stay 10 days in a village taking herbs to continue the path.
- jpcfl 3y ago
- PanamaNewb 3y agoHey there. I'm from Panama. The Darien Gap still has foreigners (including wealthy tourists) going there with the crazy idea they can hike through it. The trash being left behind in just the past couple years is just heartbreaking. Mountainous jungles in Panama are extremely easy to get lost in the overgrown vegetation. Tourists have died in hiking trails in Boquete, Veraguas or Cerro Azul by only going a few hundred meters off path. Also, most Panamanians are against the idea of building a road between Darien and Colombia since most of us want to preserve as much jungle as we still can. There is currently massive protests against the mining operation in Donoso by the Canadian company First Quantum Minerals (FQM). I imagine there would be similar blockades against foreign companies trying to build a road in the darien gap.
- sungam 3y agoSounds like an incredibly risky area but in terms of navigation can they not use gps?
- initplus 3y agoGPS can tell you exactly where you are, and nothing more. It can’t tell anyone else where you are, it can’t teach you to read a map if you don’t have the skills. It can’t tell you the best route through dense jungle terrain if you don’t have the skillset.
- crazygringo 3y agoBut it should be able to point you back to the hiking path, or retrace your steps backwards, as long as it's connected to mapping app. Just because it can't do everything doesn't mean it can't do anything.
- PanamaNewb 3y agoFor sure, a garmin gps would help. They're not 100% though. I have a property in the mountains with jungle and there were steep drops that did not show up on my topographic map. I imagine someone could easily die if they didn't pay attention. Also, slipping and falling is a serious risk during the wet season, even on well known paths.
- visitedcolombia 3y agoColombia has the most brutal geography in the world
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoBut arguably the coolest people
- acwan93 3y agoIt's cheaper to ship something from Shanghai to Los Angeles than from Bogotá to Cartagena, or so my classes taught me when I took a class on Colombia's economy.
- rootsudo 3y agoI find it pretty funny that someone posted about the Pan American highway yesterday, and then the Darien gap today. It’s interesting how ignorant most HN’ers are just south of the USA. The user PanamaNewb covered most of it correctly. It’s still a dangerous area. There are famous bloggers that have gone missing and literally only their bones have come back. The famous one thus far is: http://travelswithmitzi.blogspot.com/2018/10/killed-in-darien-gap.html?m=1 http://travelswithmitzi.blogspot.com/2018/10/killed-in-darie... Jan Philip Most people mistake the issue there as a technical or engineering one. It isn’t. It’s political and human centric. The indigenous people don’t have a true connection or believe in the government of Panama or Colombia. Go back over a century and the whole land was just Colombia, but Roosevelt (yes, that US president!) wanted the a Canal thru Panama and thus Panama became a country. Decades later it came up again for road construction but it was already heavily used for smuggling and other curious business. During the 60s through 90s it came up a lot for the cocaine trade. When that was gone, the power vacuum created a few gorilla militants that aligned themselves with the indigenous- most notably the FARC. That doesn’t really exist anymore, but the people that belonged to several faction still do and many still have revenue from passage or related business. Most people that need to legitimately get through just take a ferry to Turbo and vice Versa. The migrants walking through is a new phenomena in the volume that try to go through. If you can read Spanish and can find the telegram/signal groups you can even get day by day news of what happens and which days the migrants are told to wait and not try. It correlates to some curious activity or so I understand. Most people outside of South America lack the understand the above history and the dynamics in general of this graft. But before you point fingers - everyone most likely is somewhat related from Panama to Panama military, Colombia and Colombian military. The anti government groups and the idginious people. Tl;dr no one wants change except government of Colombia and people on the internet that have no idea of what happens there. Colombia government wants to build roads and tunnels for trade and then eventually enforce laws. But the later always has bad outcomes in Colombia.
- crazygringo 3y agoThis is a great, informative comment. You're also being downvoted, surely, because you're needlessly insulting HN'ers in your first paragraph. If you refrained from calling people ignorant, then I'm sure informative comments like this would be upvoted instead. :)
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