7 ms·

It’s been great for gambling, cybercrime, and enabling the drug trade practically since its inception.

by d11z 3y ago

7moritz7 3y ago
I really think Monero in particular deserves way more criticism for their practice. Bitcoin is one thing, Monero is created for and marketed towards cybercriminals, you don't need to be a communications expert to get that premise. I haven't seen it used once for any legitimate purpose. Atleast with Bitcoin and Ethereum you can get buy some legitimate things like VPNs or NFTs https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/06/monero-emerges-as-crypto-of-choice-for-cybercriminals https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/06/moner...
- fsflover 3y ago
  Doesn't TorBroswer also deserve more criticism by that logic? Here is their reply to this: https://support.torproject.org/abuse/ https://support.torproject.org/abuse/
  - 7moritz7 3y ago
    People abandon all analysis when it comes to Tor. Yes, Tor serves a legitimate purpose (in contrast to Monero, noone has changed my mind yet), but I'd argue that value would also be fullfilled without onion services. If I have to gess 99 % of onion services are illegal activity. The only exception to this rule is SecureDrop which I am certain could be realized with just a regular server too. You need to self host it anyways.
    - Forbo 3y ago
      I use Monero to donate to FLOSS software projects and as a way of paying friends without surveillance capitalism demanding I tell them what my private transactions are for. If these aren't "legitimate purposes" then there no point in engaging in this conversation. Maybe you're happy with being subject to corporate panopticons of Venmo/Cash App/whatever but I'd rather not engage with companies that seek to demand an ever larger pool of information from me. Onion services provide authentication and NAT traversal while maintaining security and anonymity. Just because you aren't using that functionality doesn't mean it doesn't have a use. How do you intend to have a clearnet application that can stand up to the same threat model that SecureDrop does?
      - schleck8 3y ago
        > Maybe you're happy with being subject to corporate panopticons of Venmo/Cash App/whatever Get this, I've never used either of these services before. And the even crazier part is that if I did, they wouldn't know what I'm giving my friends money for anyways. And lastly, just use cash if your decision making is being opressed by the surveillance capitalism. Monero serves no purpose that hasn't already been fullfilled by a non-dubious measure > How do you intend to have a clearnet application that can stand up to the same threat model that SecureDrop does? I don't know, ask Stripe maybe how they haven't gotten any customer data stolen yet with their massive threat profile while not using Tor in any capacity
        Forbo 3y ago
        Silly me, I didn't realize that I can send cash over the Internet. Stripe's threat modeling is nothing like SecureDrop's. Stripe has plenty of identifying information that they would be forced to surrender upon subpoena that SecureDrop simply wouldn't be able to furnish because it never has that information to begin with. How is this not apparent? Comparing the two reeks of bad faith.
        ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
        > just use cash if your decision making is being opressed by the surveillance capitalism This is morally equivalent to: - "just send a letter through the post if you don't like EU's chat control" - "just read the newspaper if you don't like Google's Federated Learning of Cohorts" I'd like to believe we can get the benefits of 21st century tech without giving up our privacy to get it. Thanks to Monero that belief is a reality. You're welcome to stick with cash and the pony express if you like, but it's not a great look painting everyone who disagrees with your values as a criminal.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  I thought the goal of NFT was money laundering with something of fake value?
- clemailacct1 3y ago
  Monero was built and used for privacy purposes but it gets abused by cybercriminals for malicious purposes. Just like all cryptocurrencies and even plain paper cash.
  - 7moritz7 3y ago
    > Monero was built and used for privacy purposes So was Encrochat
- xcdzvyn 3y ago
  You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption. I haven't bought much with Monero, but I always offer it because I adore the premise. I personally think its great, one of the few truly valuable cryptocurrencies.
  - username135 3y ago
    +1 for Monero.
  - EliRivers 3y ago
    "Monero is created for and marketed towards cybercriminals..." "You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption..." That seems very untrue. I like my credit card details to be encrypted when I send them for the exact opposite of assisting cybercrime.
  - michaelcampbell 3y ago
    > > I haven't seen it used once for any legitimate purpose > You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption. Maybe YOU could, and maybe you'd even be telling the truth, if you're going to this site over http and and not https.
- fturst 3y ago
  So Tor and I2P also should be criticized? IMO, something being away enough from the government that it starts to get abused shows how secure/private it is.
  - xmprt 3y ago
    Ironically Tor is mostly funded by the US government. 80% in 2012. They are still a significant donor however I'm not sure if the percentage is still so high.
  - lmm 3y ago
    Tor and I2P allow the free flow of information, which is a net good for society. Monero allows the free flow of money which is a net negative; it effectively destroys the rule of law because those with enough money can freely commission crimes that benefit them.
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
  Today you are on the right side of the fence. You buy things that are permitted so its all good. I wonder if you would keep the same opinion, once that changes. But lets hope for our sake, we never get there.
- DoodahMan 3y ago
  you can do the same with XMR. for example Mullvad accepts XMR and BTC.
gumby 3y ago
Easier to do money laundering this way instead of selling trump a house.
staplers 3y ago
The suffocating irony of this forum being called "Hacker News" when it is filled with comments like this never fails to amaze me. A truly unimaginative bunch.
- d11z 3y ago
  Could you give some other concrete, practical examples of use cases for cryptocurrencies instead of the passive-aggressive snark?
  - fturst 3y ago
    Preserving privacy, reliable transactions with no, i repeat, no bank or govmnt involvement, no kyc. No/low fees (on some currencies), public immutable databases...
    - michaelcampbell 3y ago
      These feel more like theoretical selling points, not documented uses of.
    - demondemidi 3y ago
      > Preserving privacy Literally does not understand crypto.
      - MrBruh 3y ago
        cough monero cough
        demondemidi 3y ago
        Got a frog in your throat, partner? :)
    - schleck8 3y ago
      Somehow I'm living day to day without needing to think about being associated with a service I am paying for. I totally get your point about minimizing interference, but there is absolutely no way anyone thinks Monero is a good solution to this problem who isn't involved in some shady business.

It’s been great for gambling, cybercrime, and enabling the drug trade practically since its inception.

by d11z 3y ago

It’s been great for gambling, cybercrime, and enabling the drug trade practically since its inception.

I really think Monero in particular deserves way more criticism for their practice. Bitcoin is one thing, Monero is created for and marketed towards cybercriminals, you don't need to be a communications expert to get that premise. I haven't seen it used once for any legitimate purpose. Atleast with Bitcoin and Ethereum you can get buy some legitimate things like VPNs or NFTs https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/06/monero-emerges-as-crypto-of-choice-for-cybercriminals https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/06/moner...

fsflover 3y ago
Doesn't TorBroswer also deserve more criticism by that logic? Here is their reply to this: https://support.torproject.org/abuse/ https://support.torproject.org/abuse/
- 7moritz7 3y ago
  People abandon all analysis when it comes to Tor. Yes, Tor serves a legitimate purpose (in contrast to Monero, noone has changed my mind yet), but I'd argue that value would also be fullfilled without onion services. If I have to gess 99 % of onion services are illegal activity. The only exception to this rule is SecureDrop which I am certain could be realized with just a regular server too. You need to self host it anyways.
  - Forbo 3y ago
    I use Monero to donate to FLOSS software projects and as a way of paying friends without surveillance capitalism demanding I tell them what my private transactions are for. If these aren't "legitimate purposes" then there no point in engaging in this conversation. Maybe you're happy with being subject to corporate panopticons of Venmo/Cash App/whatever but I'd rather not engage with companies that seek to demand an ever larger pool of information from me. Onion services provide authentication and NAT traversal while maintaining security and anonymity. Just because you aren't using that functionality doesn't mean it doesn't have a use. How do you intend to have a clearnet application that can stand up to the same threat model that SecureDrop does?
    - schleck8 3y ago
      > Maybe you're happy with being subject to corporate panopticons of Venmo/Cash App/whatever Get this, I've never used either of these services before. And the even crazier part is that if I did, they wouldn't know what I'm giving my friends money for anyways. And lastly, just use cash if your decision making is being opressed by the surveillance capitalism. Monero serves no purpose that hasn't already been fullfilled by a non-dubious measure > How do you intend to have a clearnet application that can stand up to the same threat model that SecureDrop does? I don't know, ask Stripe maybe how they haven't gotten any customer data stolen yet with their massive threat profile while not using Tor in any capacity
      - Forbo 3y ago
        Silly me, I didn't realize that I can send cash over the Internet. Stripe's threat modeling is nothing like SecureDrop's. Stripe has plenty of identifying information that they would be forced to surrender upon subpoena that SecureDrop simply wouldn't be able to furnish because it never has that information to begin with. How is this not apparent? Comparing the two reeks of bad faith.
      - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
        > just use cash if your decision making is being opressed by the surveillance capitalism This is morally equivalent to: - "just send a letter through the post if you don't like EU's chat control" - "just read the newspaper if you don't like Google's Federated Learning of Cohorts" I'd like to believe we can get the benefits of 21st century tech without giving up our privacy to get it. Thanks to Monero that belief is a reality. You're welcome to stick with cash and the pony express if you like, but it's not a great look painting everyone who disagrees with your values as a criminal.
LtWorf 3y ago
I thought the goal of NFT was money laundering with something of fake value?
clemailacct1 3y ago
Monero was built and used for privacy purposes but it gets abused by cybercriminals for malicious purposes. Just like all cryptocurrencies and even plain paper cash.
- 7moritz7 3y ago
  > Monero was built and used for privacy purposes So was Encrochat
xcdzvyn 3y ago
You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption. I haven't bought much with Monero, but I always offer it because I adore the premise. I personally think its great, one of the few truly valuable cryptocurrencies.
- username135 3y ago
  +1 for Monero.
- EliRivers 3y ago
  "Monero is created for and marketed towards cybercriminals..." "You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption..." That seems very untrue. I like my credit card details to be encrypted when I send them for the exact opposite of assisting cybercrime.
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  > > I haven't seen it used once for any legitimate purpose > You could say exactly the same thing about any form of encryption. Maybe YOU could, and maybe you'd even be telling the truth, if you're going to this site over http and and not https.
fturst 3y ago
So Tor and I2P also should be criticized? IMO, something being away enough from the government that it starts to get abused shows how secure/private it is.
- xmprt 3y ago
  Ironically Tor is mostly funded by the US government. 80% in 2012. They are still a significant donor however I'm not sure if the percentage is still so high.
- lmm 3y ago
  Tor and I2P allow the free flow of information, which is a net good for society. Monero allows the free flow of money which is a net negative; it effectively destroys the rule of law because those with enough money can freely commission crimes that benefit them.
IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
Today you are on the right side of the fence. You buy things that are permitted so its all good. I wonder if you would keep the same opinion, once that changes. But lets hope for our sake, we never get there.
DoodahMan 3y ago
you can do the same with XMR. for example Mullvad accepts XMR and BTC.

gumby 3y ago

Easier to do money laundering this way instead of selling trump a house.

staplers 3y ago

The suffocating irony of this forum being called "Hacker News" when it is filled with comments like this never fails to amaze me. A truly unimaginative bunch.

d11z 3y ago
Could you give some other concrete, practical examples of use cases for cryptocurrencies instead of the passive-aggressive snark?
- fturst 3y ago
  Preserving privacy, reliable transactions with no, i repeat, no bank or govmnt involvement, no kyc. No/low fees (on some currencies), public immutable databases...
  - michaelcampbell 3y ago
    These feel more like theoretical selling points, not documented uses of.
  - demondemidi 3y ago
    > Preserving privacy Literally does not understand crypto.
    - MrBruh 3y ago
      cough monero cough
      - demondemidi 3y ago
        Got a frog in your throat, partner? :)
  - schleck8 3y ago
    Somehow I'm living day to day without needing to think about being associated with a service I am paying for. I totally get your point about minimizing interference, but there is absolutely no way anyone thinks Monero is a good solution to this problem who isn't involved in some shady business.