6 ms·

This has already been banned in most of the west coast states. Other states and cities also have tip credit far above federal standard. https://www.dol.gov/ag

This has already been banned in most of the west coast states. Other states and cities also have tip credit far above federal standard. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped I feel betrayed that these laws are enacted without capping or preventing the practice of tipping. I doubt that tipping could be banned constitutionally due to past supreme court precedents but we really should re-evaluate and try to get rid of this practice. Why does a certain class of workers get this benefit that perpetuates race and age discrimination (white and young employees get tipped a lot more).

deleted 3y ago
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Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Weird you left out gender and attractiveness.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Attractiveness isn’t a protected class, and gender in this case goes opposite the direction people usually complain about. If you want moral sympathy for a cause, it’s helpful to pick a subset of the intersection between your cause and the morality that will be most impactful.
paxys 3y ago
> I feel betrayed that these laws are enacted without capping or preventing the practice of tipping How exactly can they do that? Make it illegal for two people to exchange money? Tipping is a social phenomenon, and it isn't going away via laws.
- simonsarris 3y ago
  When the town clerk is processing your building permit they can't ask for a tip. Well, they can and do in some cultures, with the understanding that you'll get better service! But it's illegal in the US. So it's not too difficult to imagine that it can be done.
- akomtu 3y ago
  It's a simple law: "price at the register cannot exceed the advertised price".
  - paxys 3y ago
    Price at the register is exactly the same as the advertised price.
    - akomtu 3y ago
      Em.. no, the advertised price usually says "latte 4.50" but at the register it gets mysteriously padded with sales tax, tip tax, foo tax and bar tax, so you have to pay 6.50.
      - pc86 3y ago
        Nobody thinks anything is getting "padded" with sales tax other than Europeans who have never heard of the practice before and can't get over the fact that ~5% (the median US sales tax is 5.1%) wasn't disclosed as if that is making their breakfast unaffordable. You're never required to tip so the "advertised price" and the price at the register are identical. You choosing to leave $2 on top of that doesn't change anything, even if it's only done through social pressure.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        turquoisevar 3y ago
        Silly attempt at shrugging off legitimate complaints notwithstanding, at least use an average sales tax when you do. Now it just comes across as you saying that half the country is above 5%, which would’ve been a more honest statement as it seems considering few states however around 5% combined sales tax: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/2023-sales-tax-rates-midyear/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/2023-sales-tax-rate...
- nitwit005 3y ago
  Everything humans do is a social phenomenon. That doesn't really mean anything. You just ban asking for tips, leaving a space for a tip on receipt, etc. It's not hard.
  - kyleee 3y ago
    Wouldn’t a blanket ban on “asking for tips” be an infringement on a person’s freedom of speech? It’s essentially just asking for some money, which surely anyone is free to do
    - sixstringtheory 3y ago
      Tell that to Bernie Madoff, Elizabeth Holmes and SBF. There are limits on what you can say to people and how you can exchange money.
      - kyleee 3y ago
        Ha, those are fairy strong examples IMHO. A bit apples to oranges
        frankreyes 3y ago
        The difference is temporal: tip is for a "past" already rendered product or service. Sbf, Holmes, et al, it's about a promise for "future" services, which have a risk associated of no delivery or render. When you've already eaten your burger there was no risk of uncertain delivery. The causal relationship is reversed
        sixstringtheory 3y ago
        True generally, but it gets murkier all the time. Just last week I ate at a traditional restaurant that stated up front that there is a 15% service charge on all checks. This was in a city that has a very high minimum wage even for tipped employees. More traditionally, parties of a certain size at a restaurant always are charged a fixed gratuity. Then there’re the square terminals that are normalizing up-front tipping for everything, not even just food service anymore. I’m sure I’m not the only person who has tipped up front for something and the service wound up being terrible. So there are three examples of tipping towards the future. There’s another future component to tipping: in many places there is regulation that states if the tips don’t make up the prevailing normal minimum wage, the employer must pay the difference in salary. I’ve personally never seen this happen and I worked for tips for about 7 years.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Oh this is easy Revoke the alcohol license if there are tip jars present, if its mentioned on receipts, the point of sale system, or if staff brings it up Other discretionary things can be revoked too. Easements, performances, outdoor dining. This is entirely easy. Have random audits to see how often payments match the receipts Have a consumer protection agency launch random lawsuits and distribute funds to patrons Encourage staff to mention that everyone is paid a full wage and have similar disclaimers on the menu and receipt, just like they put shellfish and undercooked disclaimers on the menu and in some places have to state it verbally Create liability so that any private lawyer can try to sue everyone just like was done to create California’s cancer disclaimer, they can function alongside the consumer protection agency Make it illegal for point of sale systems to push tipping for certain merchant codes, merchants have to snitch on the POS provider and vice versa when anyone questions why the system is guilt tripping them into a tip Everyone is a node within a network, graph theory, you can control behavior by regulating the intermediary, the nodes will flip their behavior in a distributed fashion. Think about everything that way and you can find how to control all facets of life under any governance system.
JohnFen 3y ago
> I feel betrayed that these laws are enacted without capping or preventing the practice of tipping Just don't tip. There's no law saying you have to.
- worik 3y ago
  > There's no law saying you have to. Behavior is not defined by law. Social constructs and concepts matter too Be the only non tipper? No. That breaks the golden rule. (There is no tipping where I live, I am glad)
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    This is true, but two things mitigate it. The first is that if you're the one paying the bill, it's pretty easy to do so in a way that nobody you're with can tell how much, or if, you tip. The other thing is that the social consequences aren't that large. In the end, it's voluntary behavior.
    - vineyardmike 3y ago
      To be transparent, if I saw someone not tip when they took the bill I’d say something. I’ve heard of people looking explicitly at tips when evaluating dates, because it’s perceived as a (vague) proxy for empathy. I’ve also seen workers complain to the customer over not tipping, so you can totally be “outed” by them too. I’m against tipping like a lot of this thread, but it’s a standard practice in the US. Being the one non-tipper is not changing the system, you’re just hurting the service worker.
- olalonde 3y ago
  Theoretically possible. But have you tried it? I forgot to tip once when I visited the US and the waitress nearly assaulted me.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > But have you tried it? Yes, I have, and have never had the experience you've had. That sounds more like you got a terrible server than anything else.
Ajay-p 3y ago
One option is to ban a business from asking soliciting tips, or regulation on payment processors who do business in Chicago to remove the tip line. It's possible but it would see a lawsuit for restriction of speech. IANL but that may not be enough of a defense, since the customer is still free to give a tip (speak with money) but the business would not be allowed to solicit gratuity's.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Mountain_Skies 3y ago

Weird you left out gender and attractiveness.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
Attractiveness isn’t a protected class, and gender in this case goes opposite the direction people usually complain about. If you want moral sympathy for a cause, it’s helpful to pick a subset of the intersection between your cause and the morality that will be most impactful.

paxys 3y ago

> I feel betrayed that these laws are enacted without capping or preventing the practice of tipping How exactly can they do that? Make it illegal for two people to exchange money? Tipping is a social phenomenon, and it isn't going away via laws.

simonsarris 3y ago
When the town clerk is processing your building permit they can't ask for a tip. Well, they can and do in some cultures, with the understanding that you'll get better service! But it's illegal in the US. So it's not too difficult to imagine that it can be done.
akomtu 3y ago
It's a simple law: "price at the register cannot exceed the advertised price".
- paxys 3y ago
  Price at the register is exactly the same as the advertised price.
  - akomtu 3y ago
    Em.. no, the advertised price usually says "latte 4.50" but at the register it gets mysteriously padded with sales tax, tip tax, foo tax and bar tax, so you have to pay 6.50.
    - pc86 3y ago
      Nobody thinks anything is getting "padded" with sales tax other than Europeans who have never heard of the practice before and can't get over the fact that ~5% (the median US sales tax is 5.1%) wasn't disclosed as if that is making their breakfast unaffordable. You're never required to tip so the "advertised price" and the price at the register are identical. You choosing to leave $2 on top of that doesn't change anything, even if it's only done through social pressure.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - turquoisevar 3y ago
        Silly attempt at shrugging off legitimate complaints notwithstanding, at least use an average sales tax when you do. Now it just comes across as you saying that half the country is above 5%, which would’ve been a more honest statement as it seems considering few states however around 5% combined sales tax: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/2023-sales-tax-rates-midyear/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/2023-sales-tax-rate...
nitwit005 3y ago
Everything humans do is a social phenomenon. That doesn't really mean anything. You just ban asking for tips, leaving a space for a tip on receipt, etc. It's not hard.
- kyleee 3y ago
  Wouldn’t a blanket ban on “asking for tips” be an infringement on a person’s freedom of speech? It’s essentially just asking for some money, which surely anyone is free to do
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    Tell that to Bernie Madoff, Elizabeth Holmes and SBF. There are limits on what you can say to people and how you can exchange money.
    - kyleee 3y ago
      Ha, those are fairy strong examples IMHO. A bit apples to oranges
      - frankreyes 3y ago
        The difference is temporal: tip is for a "past" already rendered product or service. Sbf, Holmes, et al, it's about a promise for "future" services, which have a risk associated of no delivery or render. When you've already eaten your burger there was no risk of uncertain delivery. The causal relationship is reversed
        sixstringtheory 3y ago
        True generally, but it gets murkier all the time. Just last week I ate at a traditional restaurant that stated up front that there is a 15% service charge on all checks. This was in a city that has a very high minimum wage even for tipped employees. More traditionally, parties of a certain size at a restaurant always are charged a fixed gratuity. Then there’re the square terminals that are normalizing up-front tipping for everything, not even just food service anymore. I’m sure I’m not the only person who has tipped up front for something and the service wound up being terrible. So there are three examples of tipping towards the future. There’s another future component to tipping: in many places there is regulation that states if the tips don’t make up the prevailing normal minimum wage, the employer must pay the difference in salary. I’ve personally never seen this happen and I worked for tips for about 7 years.
yieldcrv 3y ago
Oh this is easy Revoke the alcohol license if there are tip jars present, if its mentioned on receipts, the point of sale system, or if staff brings it up Other discretionary things can be revoked too. Easements, performances, outdoor dining. This is entirely easy. Have random audits to see how often payments match the receipts Have a consumer protection agency launch random lawsuits and distribute funds to patrons Encourage staff to mention that everyone is paid a full wage and have similar disclaimers on the menu and receipt, just like they put shellfish and undercooked disclaimers on the menu and in some places have to state it verbally Create liability so that any private lawyer can try to sue everyone just like was done to create California’s cancer disclaimer, they can function alongside the consumer protection agency Make it illegal for point of sale systems to push tipping for certain merchant codes, merchants have to snitch on the POS provider and vice versa when anyone questions why the system is guilt tripping them into a tip Everyone is a node within a network, graph theory, you can control behavior by regulating the intermediary, the nodes will flip their behavior in a distributed fashion. Think about everything that way and you can find how to control all facets of life under any governance system.

JohnFen 3y ago

> I feel betrayed that these laws are enacted without capping or preventing the practice of tipping Just don't tip. There's no law saying you have to.

worik 3y ago
> There's no law saying you have to. Behavior is not defined by law. Social constructs and concepts matter too Be the only non tipper? No. That breaks the golden rule. (There is no tipping where I live, I am glad)
- JohnFen 3y ago
  This is true, but two things mitigate it. The first is that if you're the one paying the bill, it's pretty easy to do so in a way that nobody you're with can tell how much, or if, you tip. The other thing is that the social consequences aren't that large. In the end, it's voluntary behavior.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    To be transparent, if I saw someone not tip when they took the bill I’d say something. I’ve heard of people looking explicitly at tips when evaluating dates, because it’s perceived as a (vague) proxy for empathy. I’ve also seen workers complain to the customer over not tipping, so you can totally be “outed” by them too. I’m against tipping like a lot of this thread, but it’s a standard practice in the US. Being the one non-tipper is not changing the system, you’re just hurting the service worker.
olalonde 3y ago
Theoretically possible. But have you tried it? I forgot to tip once when I visited the US and the waitress nearly assaulted me.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > But have you tried it? Yes, I have, and have never had the experience you've had. That sounds more like you got a terrible server than anything else.

Ajay-p 3y ago

One option is to ban a business from asking soliciting tips, or regulation on payment processors who do business in Chicago to remove the tip line. It's possible but it would see a lawsuit for restriction of speech. IANL but that may not be enough of a defense, since the customer is still free to give a tip (speak with money) but the business would not be allowed to solicit gratuity's.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]