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This IDE doesn't seem to differ from CLion with Rust plugin. I guess, its only about making Rust plugin paid from their side – which makes sense from their side

This IDE doesn't seem to differ from CLion with Rust plugin. I guess, its only about making Rust plugin paid from their side – which makes sense from their side. I hope they can deliver quality. On the other hand, they are notoriously slow to develop their IDEs. Features are super slow to be delivered, IDEs themselves are not really improved as well. They are focusing on things most don't care: Spaces, new UI project, etc. Barely any performance improvements, customisation is hard, Ruby, Scala and other plugins are lacking as well. Scala showing red squiggly lines where its not supposed to (on their compiler), Ruby lacking ergonomics in refactoring department (refactoring too large scope and etc.) or tooling support. I still pay Jetbrains and while 2015 they were above everything else – its no longer the case. I grew up with them as developer, I hope they can up their game.

badrequest 3y ago
When Goland launched it wasn't that much different from IntelliJ IDEA with the Go plugin. In the intervening years it has come to feel like a significantly better product than that combination.
- bsdnoob 3y ago
  I'm curious to hear what really is the difference between GoLand and IDEA Ultimate with go plugin other than flashy startup banner.
  - user432678 3y ago
    Not much actually, but for me it’s default settings of Goland vs “you need to setup some small things, plugins and shortcuts in Intellij IDEA Ultimate to work with Go effectively”. Ultimate is also a bit slower if you don’t disable a ton of Java plugins. But if you don’t need Java and disable it anyway, why not to use more streamlined and lightweight Goland?
  - compsciphd 3y ago
    the go plugin that existed at the time of goland creation and what exists today are very very different things. the go plugin back then was very simple. The fact that you get most of the goland experience in idea ultmate today is because they are investing into the go ecosystem as an independent profit making endeavor in and of itself, not simply a small value add.
- anuraaga 3y ago
  This is why I am happy to see RustRover - it's very likely the significantly better product is actually similar for the Go plugin. Once they release an IDE, it seems development picks up and things get a lot better quicker. I have used clion with rust plugin and while it's better than nothing, it's generally been pretty spotty on all the features, completion, marking errors, refactoring. I'm looking forward to RustRover "pulling a GoLand" by bringing a proper IDE experience to rust.
TylerE 3y ago
That's how all their IDEs work. It's all the same software with different sets of allowed plugins. I would also argue that their IDEs are largely mature, feature-complete software. I'm quite happy they haven't succumbed to the modern trend of reorganize all the menus every 6 months.
- threeseed 3y ago
  > largely mature, feature-complete software Depends on the language. I use mostly Scala and Rust and both have significant issues still with incorrect syntax highlighting, refactoring being limited and slowness with larger projects.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - TylerE 3y ago
    I guess it's just that I have a hard time reading a statement like "Features are super slow to be delivered" and even trying to understand where that person is coming from. Like, what general, non-language specific features does he think IntelliJ lacks at this point? Is he upset he can't use it to mail a check to his utility company?
    - perceptronas 3y ago
      I didn't say its non-language specific only. I also listed few language specific ones and non-language ones. Not sure I can add more to be clear
    - fomine3 3y ago
      VS Code Remote development equivalent? I know similar features available but VSCode is superior for overall when I've last checked.
  - EdwardDiego 3y ago
    Scala and Rust are both very complex languages. I mean, how's rustfmt going?
dinckelman 3y ago
That's pretty much how it's always been. If you want a Jetbrains IDE, IDEA Ultimate is the best choice, because it offers all of the exact same features. The only issue is that, let's say, if you're developing in Python, it will still give you a Javascript-centered UI, and it's really frustrating
- jpgvm 3y ago
  I think you mean Java-centered UI. The Javascript IDE is WebStorm not IDEA Ultimate.
  - troupo 3y ago
    IDEA Ultimate has all WebStorm has to offer, and more
kuhsaft 3y ago
> They are focusing on things most don't care Different product teams work on different plugins/IDEs. Though, it's apparent that the more popular languages (Python/Java/JS/.NET/Go) get more enhancements. Makes sense for Jetbrains though because those languages provide them more revenue with a larger user base. > Spaces, new UI project Jetbrains Spaces is Jetbrains branching out into SaaS. The new UI work has been going on since as long as I remember. They're always tweaking the UI, but that's the norm in the industry.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
> new UI project It’s incredible to me how many people choose VS Code because of its aesthetics, so it is by all means the right thing to focus on.
- pxc 3y ago
  That's really interesting. What makes VSCode's aesthetic so distinctive and appealing? As an infrequent user of it, I don't really see how it stands out. (The main things that stand out about it to me as an Emacs user is that it has pop-ups/nags/splash tabs that I have to dismiss whenever I open it.)
  - dromtrund 3y ago
    It's not obvious if you come from emacs, but the keyboard centric navigation is very different from traditional IDEs, that usually come with a wide array of buttons with weird icons at the top. A few other aspects: - dark mode by default - web tech UI, not terminal - decent looking widgets and decorations I don't think these are the main selling points for vscode, but they do all of this better than their competitors.
  - laurencerowe 3y ago
    Not the person you were replying to but I've found VS Code treads the right line for me between editor and IDE. It feels like a text editor first and the UI is pretty similar to SumblimeText and TextMate which I used before, neither of which had much in the way of IDE features. But I think the reason VS Code has become so popular is that along with its editor centric UI it has Emacs like extensibility. Plugins are easily written in JavaScript and it originated the Language Server Protocol which makes it possible to write language integrations in the target language. I've not used the newer version of IntelliJ since the redesign, but I always found it somewhat overwhelming, with all this stuff which prevented me from focussing on the code I was writing. The old version had pretty poor UI performance too, whereas the VS Code UI is fast enough that I rarely notice any UI slowdown. Nevertheless IntelliJ is pretty indispensable for Java/Kotlin development. It's code sense features are excellent and there are a lot of projects out there that don't really build except through IntelliJ's automatic Gradle setup. FWIW the only pop-up like things I see with VS Code are extension suggestions when I open a file with a new language extension and the monthly update change logs.
cyberax 3y ago
> On the other hand, they are notoriously slow to develop their IDEs. I found that IntelliJ IDEs for me are almost at the perfection level. I don't really need any new changes, except for simple incremental ones like supporting new languages. I've been using IntelliJ since 2003, and it's amazing how little my main workflows have changed since then.
- raincole 3y ago
  My worst nightmare is JetBrains gets IPO (or acquired by a public traded corp).
  - pulse7 3y ago
    Which may happen when the founders decide to retire...
- boxed 3y ago
  They do break stuff they used to have and then it doesn't get fixed for years. For example this https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-39449/Deleting-parameter-variable-no-longer-suppresses-unused-parameter-warning https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-39449/Deleting-param... has been broken for 4 years.
  - maccard 3y ago
    All software has bugs. THis is no different to emacs [0] or vscode [1] [0] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=2940 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=2940 [1] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/30874 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/30874
    - boxed 3y ago
      The problem is that they create features, and then those features BREAK later. Then in some cases they fix them and then they break AGAIN later. They seem to be pretty bad at writing regression tests.
  - 3y ago
phendrenad2 3y ago
JetBrains IDEs _usually_ do start off that way, CLion itself started off looking like the existing C++ plugin for IntelliJ.
- mdaniel 3y ago
  You are misremembering, unless you happen to have a link to the marketplace for any such alleged C++ plugin
  - phendrenad2 3y ago
    There was no C++ plugin for IntelliJ?
pkulak 3y ago
Neovim plus the Rust treesitter thing is really good. Intellij has work to do before they are worth paying for. Which is great! I love competition. Kotlin is probably my favorite language to program in, but I hate how it locks you in to a single IDE.
- hobofan 3y ago
  IMHO Clion with Rust plugin is already the best Rust IDE available and I gladly pay for it.
  - pkulak 3y ago
    Yeah, but sometimes I do want to search a project within 5 minutes of opening it. IntelliJ and it’s indexing, even when you had the project open 30 minutes ago, drives me crazy. Alternatives are good.
    - 0x457 3y ago
      All slow indexing in CLion for rust were solved for me by locking toolchain to a specific version.
reaperman 3y ago
The only thing I think I’d even want changed with PyCharm is better Copilot integration and time-travel debugging. Other than that I’d actually prefer that it doesnt change.
madeofpalk 3y ago
On the other other hand, I switched from Visual Studio to Rider and it's embarrasing just how much better Rider is as a .net/C# IDE than the first party IDE. They're already so far ahead of Microsoft that "super slow" still has them doing laps about them.
- isanjay 3y ago
  As someone who uses Visual Studio in day job and Rider on Linux at night I agree
p0w3n3d 3y ago
for me CLion was the revelation, and really I couldn't deliver my project if I didn't obtain it (sadly from my pocket, due to some strange software request process). It both sped up and improved my work, delivering thorough analysis of code through the lint. However they already told in plain text that the Rust plugin will be stopped at this point of time, so this is another quite expensive (for me) tool to buy if you'd like to develop home projects or learn at home
- lostmsu 3y ago
  Hopefully separate paid IDE will mean better quality integration. I for one just need trait calls, in particular Debug trait, in debugger expression evaluation and they can have my money.
dncornholio 3y ago
> Notoriously slow to develop their IDE Slow means stable. I don't understand how people rate software on this. Lot's of updates to a product means to me that the product is faulty.
- gilcot 3y ago
  People aren't seeking for stability but for constant eye catching buzz.

badrequest 3y ago

When Goland launched it wasn't that much different from IntelliJ IDEA with the Go plugin. In the intervening years it has come to feel like a significantly better product than that combination.

bsdnoob 3y ago
I'm curious to hear what really is the difference between GoLand and IDEA Ultimate with go plugin other than flashy startup banner.
- user432678 3y ago
  Not much actually, but for me it’s default settings of Goland vs “you need to setup some small things, plugins and shortcuts in Intellij IDEA Ultimate to work with Go effectively”. Ultimate is also a bit slower if you don’t disable a ton of Java plugins. But if you don’t need Java and disable it anyway, why not to use more streamlined and lightweight Goland?
- compsciphd 3y ago
  the go plugin that existed at the time of goland creation and what exists today are very very different things. the go plugin back then was very simple. The fact that you get most of the goland experience in idea ultmate today is because they are investing into the go ecosystem as an independent profit making endeavor in and of itself, not simply a small value add.
anuraaga 3y ago
This is why I am happy to see RustRover - it's very likely the significantly better product is actually similar for the Go plugin. Once they release an IDE, it seems development picks up and things get a lot better quicker. I have used clion with rust plugin and while it's better than nothing, it's generally been pretty spotty on all the features, completion, marking errors, refactoring. I'm looking forward to RustRover "pulling a GoLand" by bringing a proper IDE experience to rust.

TylerE 3y ago

That's how all their IDEs work. It's all the same software with different sets of allowed plugins. I would also argue that their IDEs are largely mature, feature-complete software. I'm quite happy they haven't succumbed to the modern trend of reorganize all the menus every 6 months.

threeseed 3y ago
> largely mature, feature-complete software Depends on the language. I use mostly Scala and Rust and both have significant issues still with incorrect syntax highlighting, refactoring being limited and slowness with larger projects.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- TylerE 3y ago
  I guess it's just that I have a hard time reading a statement like "Features are super slow to be delivered" and even trying to understand where that person is coming from. Like, what general, non-language specific features does he think IntelliJ lacks at this point? Is he upset he can't use it to mail a check to his utility company?
  - perceptronas 3y ago
    I didn't say its non-language specific only. I also listed few language specific ones and non-language ones. Not sure I can add more to be clear
  - fomine3 3y ago
    VS Code Remote development equivalent? I know similar features available but VSCode is superior for overall when I've last checked.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  Scala and Rust are both very complex languages. I mean, how's rustfmt going?

dinckelman 3y ago

That's pretty much how it's always been. If you want a Jetbrains IDE, IDEA Ultimate is the best choice, because it offers all of the exact same features. The only issue is that, let's say, if you're developing in Python, it will still give you a Javascript-centered UI, and it's really frustrating

jpgvm 3y ago
I think you mean Java-centered UI. The Javascript IDE is WebStorm not IDEA Ultimate.
- troupo 3y ago
  IDEA Ultimate has all WebStorm has to offer, and more

kuhsaft 3y ago

> They are focusing on things most don't care Different product teams work on different plugins/IDEs. Though, it's apparent that the more popular languages (Python/Java/JS/.NET/Go) get more enhancements. Makes sense for Jetbrains though because those languages provide them more revenue with a larger user base. > Spaces, new UI project Jetbrains Spaces is Jetbrains branching out into SaaS. The new UI work has been going on since as long as I remember. They're always tweaking the UI, but that's the norm in the industry.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

> new UI project It’s incredible to me how many people choose VS Code because of its aesthetics, so it is by all means the right thing to focus on.

pxc 3y ago
That's really interesting. What makes VSCode's aesthetic so distinctive and appealing? As an infrequent user of it, I don't really see how it stands out. (The main things that stand out about it to me as an Emacs user is that it has pop-ups/nags/splash tabs that I have to dismiss whenever I open it.)
- dromtrund 3y ago
  It's not obvious if you come from emacs, but the keyboard centric navigation is very different from traditional IDEs, that usually come with a wide array of buttons with weird icons at the top. A few other aspects: - dark mode by default - web tech UI, not terminal - decent looking widgets and decorations I don't think these are the main selling points for vscode, but they do all of this better than their competitors.
- laurencerowe 3y ago
  Not the person you were replying to but I've found VS Code treads the right line for me between editor and IDE. It feels like a text editor first and the UI is pretty similar to SumblimeText and TextMate which I used before, neither of which had much in the way of IDE features. But I think the reason VS Code has become so popular is that along with its editor centric UI it has Emacs like extensibility. Plugins are easily written in JavaScript and it originated the Language Server Protocol which makes it possible to write language integrations in the target language. I've not used the newer version of IntelliJ since the redesign, but I always found it somewhat overwhelming, with all this stuff which prevented me from focussing on the code I was writing. The old version had pretty poor UI performance too, whereas the VS Code UI is fast enough that I rarely notice any UI slowdown. Nevertheless IntelliJ is pretty indispensable for Java/Kotlin development. It's code sense features are excellent and there are a lot of projects out there that don't really build except through IntelliJ's automatic Gradle setup. FWIW the only pop-up like things I see with VS Code are extension suggestions when I open a file with a new language extension and the monthly update change logs.

cyberax 3y ago

> On the other hand, they are notoriously slow to develop their IDEs. I found that IntelliJ IDEs for me are almost at the perfection level. I don't really need any new changes, except for simple incremental ones like supporting new languages. I've been using IntelliJ since 2003, and it's amazing how little my main workflows have changed since then.

raincole 3y ago
My worst nightmare is JetBrains gets IPO (or acquired by a public traded corp).
- pulse7 3y ago
  Which may happen when the founders decide to retire...
boxed 3y ago
They do break stuff they used to have and then it doesn't get fixed for years. For example this https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-39449/Deleting-parameter-variable-no-longer-suppresses-unused-parameter-warning https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-39449/Deleting-param... has been broken for 4 years.
- maccard 3y ago
  All software has bugs. THis is no different to emacs [0] or vscode [1] [0] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=2940 https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=2940 [1] https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/30874 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/30874
  - boxed 3y ago
    The problem is that they create features, and then those features BREAK later. Then in some cases they fix them and then they break AGAIN later. They seem to be pretty bad at writing regression tests.
- 3y ago

phendrenad2 3y ago

JetBrains IDEs _usually_ do start off that way, CLion itself started off looking like the existing C++ plugin for IntelliJ.

mdaniel 3y ago
You are misremembering, unless you happen to have a link to the marketplace for any such alleged C++ plugin
- phendrenad2 3y ago
  There was no C++ plugin for IntelliJ?

pkulak 3y ago

Neovim plus the Rust treesitter thing is really good. Intellij has work to do before they are worth paying for. Which is great! I love competition. Kotlin is probably my favorite language to program in, but I hate how it locks you in to a single IDE.

hobofan 3y ago
IMHO Clion with Rust plugin is already the best Rust IDE available and I gladly pay for it.
- pkulak 3y ago
  Yeah, but sometimes I do want to search a project within 5 minutes of opening it. IntelliJ and it’s indexing, even when you had the project open 30 minutes ago, drives me crazy. Alternatives are good.
  - 0x457 3y ago
    All slow indexing in CLion for rust were solved for me by locking toolchain to a specific version.

reaperman 3y ago

The only thing I think I’d even want changed with PyCharm is better Copilot integration and time-travel debugging. Other than that I’d actually prefer that it doesnt change.

madeofpalk 3y ago

On the other other hand, I switched from Visual Studio to Rider and it's embarrasing just how much better Rider is as a .net/C# IDE than the first party IDE. They're already so far ahead of Microsoft that "super slow" still has them doing laps about them.

isanjay 3y ago
As someone who uses Visual Studio in day job and Rider on Linux at night I agree

p0w3n3d 3y ago

for me CLion was the revelation, and really I couldn't deliver my project if I didn't obtain it (sadly from my pocket, due to some strange software request process). It both sped up and improved my work, delivering thorough analysis of code through the lint. However they already told in plain text that the Rust plugin will be stopped at this point of time, so this is another quite expensive (for me) tool to buy if you'd like to develop home projects or learn at home

lostmsu 3y ago
Hopefully separate paid IDE will mean better quality integration. I for one just need trait calls, in particular Debug trait, in debugger expression evaluation and they can have my money.

dncornholio 3y ago

> Notoriously slow to develop their IDE Slow means stable. I don't understand how people rate software on this. Lot's of updates to a product means to me that the product is faulty.

gilcot 3y ago
People aren't seeking for stability but for constant eye catching buzz.