7 ms·

Windows 8 devices to have retina display

25 points by davux 15y ago

duaneb 15y ago
I'm so glad for this. Competition drives innovation!
- glimcat 15y ago
  In the sense that evolution drives speciation, yes. Which is to say, a random walk based strictly on local optimization conditions, which produces absurd dead-end results at least as often as it produces something of lasting value.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
Nokia is rumored to be building a tablet[1]. There might be finally some real competition for the iPad unlike other tablets like Touchpad, Playbook and most Android tablets. [1] http://windows8beta.com/2012/03/nokia-design-chief-confirms-plans-for-windows-8-tablet http://windows8beta.com/2012/03/nokia-design-chief-confirms-... PS: The heavily compressed JPEG screenshots were really blurry with artifacts. Wonder why they couldn't post PNGs or JPEGs with less compression.
- huggyface 15y ago
  There might be finally some real competition for the iPad unlike other tablets like Touchpad, Playbook and most Android tablets Because Windows Phone 7 has proven to be so formidable? Because Nokia is on such a technology tear? Now that the big boys are entering the game, it's on!
  - loverobots 15y ago
    Dissing Nokia? Sorry, but while Apple did blindside everyone, Nokia is a legend. Some of their phones, made for the $20+ market, last for ages. Remember that in Africa, parts of Asia and eastern Europe the iPhone is just a dream. Their latest Windows Phone got great reviews as far as I can tell. Totally different design, did not clone iPhone or anyone. So if they can make a tablet with the same material I'm in. Personally I'd choose a Widows tablet over an iPad in a heartbeat, simply because all my computers are Windows. I'm too invested in them with dozens of already purchased programs to change to Apple. Lastly, never underestimate Microsoft (Tim Cook certainly isn't). What they did 10 years ago is no longer relevant; they are tenacious, mint boatloads cash every quarter and Microsoft Research is top notch.
    - huggyface 15y ago
      Their latest Windows Phone got great reviews as far as I can tell Positive Windows Phone reviews are almost universally courtesy of iPhone boosters, the general tone being some variation of "if for some unexplained reason the universe will not allow you to buy an iPhone, buy WP7." It's a rather transparent ploy at an "enemy of my enemy" play, and it yielded the expected sales results (if everyone who loves your device loves another device even more, only some massive supply chain issue stopping their sales could benefit you) Personally I'd choose a Widows tablet over an iPad in a heartbeat, simply because all my computers are Windows. I'm typing this on a Windows 7 PC, which I love. Most of my development is on Windows devices. Love Visual Studio. For tablets I have an iPad 3rd gen and an ICS tablet. I have zero motivation for any of my Windows experiences to follow to the tablet form, and I cannot imagine a world where the legacy of Windows is any benefit at all. Which, of course, is why Microsoft is desperately trying to flip that around, forcing their tablet experience on the desktop, which may be the first time I seriously give OSX or Linux a shot on my desktops. Lastly, never underestimate Microsoft (Tim Cook certainly isn't). I don't underestimate Microsoft generally, but the Windows 8 Consumer Preview makes me think that I generally overestimate. That is an unmitigated disaster in the making. Though it's interesting that you made special note of Tim Cook when he just recently went out of his way to say that he feels no pressure from Microsoft.
      - loverobots 15y ago
        Though it's interesting that you made special note of Tim Cook when he just recently went out of his way to say that he feels no pressure from Microsoft. He also said that MS is not out of the smartphone /tablet race and that they "always get up and run" (horse analogy.) Apple, out of all companies, knows Microsoft really well. People and companies almost have to buy Windows and ...Office, not so with many other gadgets. A lot of users have this automatic hate for MS based on Windows 3.1 or Vista but I'm still using XP and it works great. Imagine a full featured OS that works with printers made 15 years ago somewhere in Korea and I never paid a dime after the initial purchase. Kudos to MS for that, others would have tried to nickle and dime the users, but we still get updates ;). To put things in perspective, Roboform alone probably has cost me more over the same time. I said I'd get a Windows tablet simply because I'd want it to be an extension of my desktop. It remains to be seen how they manage that with bookmarks, sync etc, but personally I'm amazed at Microsoft's strategy: they make so much cash that they can afford to plan long term. Also, with what I can see they don't really clone their competitors, they have their own way of doing things. I just got a top notch PC with Win 7, Office Starter, 8GB RAM +++ at under $500. If they can spark the same specs war with tablets then we're talking. They are challenges but probably in 2-3 years $200-300 tablets will be very common, and that's great for the users, Apple or Microsoft fans. Competition is great. I love Apple too by the way. (I hate copycats.)
- cageface 15y ago
  Apple's tablet market share has dropped to 54%. There's no other single tablet that sells anywhere near as well as the iPad but in the aggregate iPad has real competition now.
rizwan 15y ago
The TL;DR version: The developer is responsible for a lot of the screen dimension differences using flexible layout and progressive enhancement/degradation. "Retina" scaling is fixed at 1.0, 1.4, and 1.8 (100%, 140%, 180%).
- seanmcdirmid 15y ago
  If the developer is going vector, they don't really have to do anything (the scaling works transparently). And its turning out to be a good time to go vector.
  - cmelbye 15y ago
    There was an article on HN recently that demonstrated why vectoring is completely unviable for this: http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector-icons.html http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector-... In short, vector graphics scaled up simply can't compare to graphics that were hand-made for a specific size, as the article shows.
    - seanmcdirmid 15y ago
      This is quite true, with existing technology the graphic designer always has to touch up their Illustrator PNGs in Photoshop (conspiracy theory: does Adobe do this on purpose so people will buy photoshop?). But at higher PPIs, the aliasing effects of rasterization are much less, you could almost turn anti-aliasing off at retina display levels, so vectors begin to make more sense. Of course, the problem is that there are still a lot of displays out there where anti-aliasing is necessary, and for some reasons our algorithms always screw it up if done in real time. Perhaps we just need better algorithms (e.g., see Direct2D). The final problem they mention is one of physical size, but it makes sense that you'd have a lesser detailed vector for something that is really small vs. something that is very big; its a design issue.
simonster 15y ago
Huh, I didn't realize that Metro doesn't support 1024x600. That doesn't sound like great news for netbook users.
- protomyth 15y ago
  I get the feeling that this is going to be a problem with a lot of upgrades. We have quite a few netbooks (HP via Verizon) that will not work. Wal-Mart sells a lot of netbooks that aren't up to spec either.
  - protomyth 14y ago
    Apparently some down voter out there hasn't had to deal with the Vista, Snow Leopard (PPC users), or Lion (early Intel users) upgrades and people's reaction to their machines not being able to run the latest hyped software.
- Raphael 15y ago
  There will likely be high density netbooks by the end of the year.
devindotcom 15y ago
Glad there's a plan for this. But everyone is going to have to do a lot more work to make their UIs truly resolution independent, though. It's really a major task. But this is a good initial step.
notatoad 15y ago
i wonder is that 17" 1080p slate referencing a real product, or just an example microsoft has chosen to illustrate possible flexibility? it sounds like an interesting new class of device.
- cooldeal 15y ago
  There will also be huge touch screens running Windows 8 like this one: http://theverge.vid.io/v/4bfbecd4-6301-11e1-aefa-1231391e54ce http://theverge.vid.io/v/4bfbecd4-6301-11e1-aefa-1231391e54c... Sure will cost a pretty penny, but the sheer number of form factors that OEMs can churn out is impressive in terms of consumer choice depending on their needs.
jmspring 15y ago
I actually found the article pretty informative and have generally been impressed with some of MSFTs recent moves. As someone that tried to avoid MSFT directly during the Win3.11 days (OS/2 anyone?) and adopted assorted BSDs when OS/2 proved less than fruitful, the Metro interface is an interesting tweak on the traditional set of icons. Note, I said Metro NOT Win8. I think WP7 brings an interesting and unique tweak to what iOS and Android are doing. I am not sure it will translate well into the desktop. Install Windows 8 community preview, VS 11, and a couple of other developer tools...Why do I need all those tiles littering the desktop? This is a developer targeted example but I am sure others exist for non-developers. The mixed metaphor of Metro and Win7-desktop will prove a challenge. I think Metro will be a win on the tablet/phone side of the world. Do I think it will over take iOS? No idea, I'm an iPhone/iPad person myself, but MSFT putting down a minimum set of requirements as well as a consistent interface is a big stead ahead of the android/touchwiz/manufacturer specific interface universe. I think competition in both the desktop and tablet markets will prove fruitful. Current iOS notifications learned something from Android, for example. So, stronger competition is a good thing. Specific to the digs at Nokia, I think Microsoft probably got the better of the bargain, but they have always produced some great hardware. Hopefully with a mix of good hardware and a unique OS, their handsets can bring them back from the dumps...
nextparadigms 15y ago
Am I missing something? Where's the "retina" display? 1920x1080 on 23" screens is not retina. It's not on 13" either. Has the retina name been diluted to just mean any resolution over 1080p and on any screen size now? I guess you have Apple to blame for this, too. Retina used to mean 300+ PPI. Since the iPad has significantly less than that, they just say that it depends how far you are from it now. I guess Microsoft will claim that for 1080p 23" monitors, you'll just have to use them from the couch a few feet away to experience the "retina" display.
- ebf 15y ago
  They list 2560x1440 on a 10" screen as a common display size for Windows 8. That puts it at 291 DPI compared to the new iPad's 264 DPI.
- jlgosse 15y ago
  10.1", 2560x1440 (291 DPI) is clearly labeled in the graphic, "Common sizes for Windows 8". It's probably best to read the entire article and look at all the pretty pictures before commenting
- cooldeal 15y ago
  I am not surprised you'd miss something that others are able to see in a MS post :) See the left top corner of this picture: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-43-metablogapi/8468.Scaling_2D002D002D00_Common_2D00_Sizes_5F00_5E732919.jpg http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-bl...
cooldeal 15y ago
What's up with the disgusting flagging going on with Microsoft related stories? http://imgur.com/IlAn2.jpg http://imgur.com/IlAn2.jpg The hater fanboys here have even gotten Winsupersite banned from HN. This is really pathetic abuse of the flag feature for personal agendas.

25 points by davux 15y ago

duaneb 15y ago

I'm so glad for this. Competition drives innovation!

glimcat 15y ago
In the sense that evolution drives speciation, yes. Which is to say, a random walk based strictly on local optimization conditions, which produces absurd dead-end results at least as often as it produces something of lasting value.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

Nokia is rumored to be building a tablet[1]. There might be finally some real competition for the iPad unlike other tablets like Touchpad, Playbook and most Android tablets. [1] http://windows8beta.com/2012/03/nokia-design-chief-confirms-plans-for-windows-8-tablet http://windows8beta.com/2012/03/nokia-design-chief-confirms-... PS: The heavily compressed JPEG screenshots were really blurry with artifacts. Wonder why they couldn't post PNGs or JPEGs with less compression.

huggyface 15y ago
There might be finally some real competition for the iPad unlike other tablets like Touchpad, Playbook and most Android tablets Because Windows Phone 7 has proven to be so formidable? Because Nokia is on such a technology tear? Now that the big boys are entering the game, it's on!
- loverobots 15y ago
  Dissing Nokia? Sorry, but while Apple did blindside everyone, Nokia is a legend. Some of their phones, made for the $20+ market, last for ages. Remember that in Africa, parts of Asia and eastern Europe the iPhone is just a dream. Their latest Windows Phone got great reviews as far as I can tell. Totally different design, did not clone iPhone or anyone. So if they can make a tablet with the same material I'm in. Personally I'd choose a Widows tablet over an iPad in a heartbeat, simply because all my computers are Windows. I'm too invested in them with dozens of already purchased programs to change to Apple. Lastly, never underestimate Microsoft (Tim Cook certainly isn't). What they did 10 years ago is no longer relevant; they are tenacious, mint boatloads cash every quarter and Microsoft Research is top notch.
  - huggyface 15y ago
    Their latest Windows Phone got great reviews as far as I can tell Positive Windows Phone reviews are almost universally courtesy of iPhone boosters, the general tone being some variation of "if for some unexplained reason the universe will not allow you to buy an iPhone, buy WP7." It's a rather transparent ploy at an "enemy of my enemy" play, and it yielded the expected sales results (if everyone who loves your device loves another device even more, only some massive supply chain issue stopping their sales could benefit you) Personally I'd choose a Widows tablet over an iPad in a heartbeat, simply because all my computers are Windows. I'm typing this on a Windows 7 PC, which I love. Most of my development is on Windows devices. Love Visual Studio. For tablets I have an iPad 3rd gen and an ICS tablet. I have zero motivation for any of my Windows experiences to follow to the tablet form, and I cannot imagine a world where the legacy of Windows is any benefit at all. Which, of course, is why Microsoft is desperately trying to flip that around, forcing their tablet experience on the desktop, which may be the first time I seriously give OSX or Linux a shot on my desktops. Lastly, never underestimate Microsoft (Tim Cook certainly isn't). I don't underestimate Microsoft generally, but the Windows 8 Consumer Preview makes me think that I generally overestimate. That is an unmitigated disaster in the making. Though it's interesting that you made special note of Tim Cook when he just recently went out of his way to say that he feels no pressure from Microsoft.
    - loverobots 15y ago
      Though it's interesting that you made special note of Tim Cook when he just recently went out of his way to say that he feels no pressure from Microsoft. He also said that MS is not out of the smartphone /tablet race and that they "always get up and run" (horse analogy.) Apple, out of all companies, knows Microsoft really well. People and companies almost have to buy Windows and ...Office, not so with many other gadgets. A lot of users have this automatic hate for MS based on Windows 3.1 or Vista but I'm still using XP and it works great. Imagine a full featured OS that works with printers made 15 years ago somewhere in Korea and I never paid a dime after the initial purchase. Kudos to MS for that, others would have tried to nickle and dime the users, but we still get updates ;). To put things in perspective, Roboform alone probably has cost me more over the same time. I said I'd get a Windows tablet simply because I'd want it to be an extension of my desktop. It remains to be seen how they manage that with bookmarks, sync etc, but personally I'm amazed at Microsoft's strategy: they make so much cash that they can afford to plan long term. Also, with what I can see they don't really clone their competitors, they have their own way of doing things. I just got a top notch PC with Win 7, Office Starter, 8GB RAM +++ at under $500. If they can spark the same specs war with tablets then we're talking. They are challenges but probably in 2-3 years $200-300 tablets will be very common, and that's great for the users, Apple or Microsoft fans. Competition is great. I love Apple too by the way. (I hate copycats.)
cageface 15y ago
Apple's tablet market share has dropped to 54%. There's no other single tablet that sells anywhere near as well as the iPad but in the aggregate iPad has real competition now.

rizwan 15y ago

The TL;DR version: The developer is responsible for a lot of the screen dimension differences using flexible layout and progressive enhancement/degradation. "Retina" scaling is fixed at 1.0, 1.4, and 1.8 (100%, 140%, 180%).

seanmcdirmid 15y ago
If the developer is going vector, they don't really have to do anything (the scaling works transparently). And its turning out to be a good time to go vector.
- cmelbye 15y ago
  There was an article on HN recently that demonstrated why vectoring is completely unviable for this: http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector-icons.html http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector-... In short, vector graphics scaled up simply can't compare to graphics that were hand-made for a specific size, as the article shows.
  - seanmcdirmid 15y ago
    This is quite true, with existing technology the graphic designer always has to touch up their Illustrator PNGs in Photoshop (conspiracy theory: does Adobe do this on purpose so people will buy photoshop?). But at higher PPIs, the aliasing effects of rasterization are much less, you could almost turn anti-aliasing off at retina display levels, so vectors begin to make more sense. Of course, the problem is that there are still a lot of displays out there where anti-aliasing is necessary, and for some reasons our algorithms always screw it up if done in real time. Perhaps we just need better algorithms (e.g., see Direct2D). The final problem they mention is one of physical size, but it makes sense that you'd have a lesser detailed vector for something that is really small vs. something that is very big; its a design issue.

simonster 15y ago

Huh, I didn't realize that Metro doesn't support 1024x600. That doesn't sound like great news for netbook users.

protomyth 15y ago
I get the feeling that this is going to be a problem with a lot of upgrades. We have quite a few netbooks (HP via Verizon) that will not work. Wal-Mart sells a lot of netbooks that aren't up to spec either.
- protomyth 14y ago
  Apparently some down voter out there hasn't had to deal with the Vista, Snow Leopard (PPC users), or Lion (early Intel users) upgrades and people's reaction to their machines not being able to run the latest hyped software.
Raphael 15y ago
There will likely be high density netbooks by the end of the year.

devindotcom 15y ago

Glad there's a plan for this. But everyone is going to have to do a lot more work to make their UIs truly resolution independent, though. It's really a major task. But this is a good initial step.

notatoad 15y ago

i wonder is that 17" 1080p slate referencing a real product, or just an example microsoft has chosen to illustrate possible flexibility? it sounds like an interesting new class of device.

cooldeal 15y ago
There will also be huge touch screens running Windows 8 like this one: http://theverge.vid.io/v/4bfbecd4-6301-11e1-aefa-1231391e54ce http://theverge.vid.io/v/4bfbecd4-6301-11e1-aefa-1231391e54c... Sure will cost a pretty penny, but the sheer number of form factors that OEMs can churn out is impressive in terms of consumer choice depending on their needs.

jmspring 15y ago

I actually found the article pretty informative and have generally been impressed with some of MSFTs recent moves. As someone that tried to avoid MSFT directly during the Win3.11 days (OS/2 anyone?) and adopted assorted BSDs when OS/2 proved less than fruitful, the Metro interface is an interesting tweak on the traditional set of icons. Note, I said Metro NOT Win8. I think WP7 brings an interesting and unique tweak to what iOS and Android are doing. I am not sure it will translate well into the desktop. Install Windows 8 community preview, VS 11, and a couple of other developer tools...Why do I need all those tiles littering the desktop? This is a developer targeted example but I am sure others exist for non-developers. The mixed metaphor of Metro and Win7-desktop will prove a challenge. I think Metro will be a win on the tablet/phone side of the world. Do I think it will over take iOS? No idea, I'm an iPhone/iPad person myself, but MSFT putting down a minimum set of requirements as well as a consistent interface is a big stead ahead of the android/touchwiz/manufacturer specific interface universe. I think competition in both the desktop and tablet markets will prove fruitful. Current iOS notifications learned something from Android, for example. So, stronger competition is a good thing. Specific to the digs at Nokia, I think Microsoft probably got the better of the bargain, but they have always produced some great hardware. Hopefully with a mix of good hardware and a unique OS, their handsets can bring them back from the dumps...

nextparadigms 15y ago

Am I missing something? Where's the "retina" display? 1920x1080 on 23" screens is not retina. It's not on 13" either. Has the retina name been diluted to just mean any resolution over 1080p and on any screen size now? I guess you have Apple to blame for this, too. Retina used to mean 300+ PPI. Since the iPad has significantly less than that, they just say that it depends how far you are from it now. I guess Microsoft will claim that for 1080p 23" monitors, you'll just have to use them from the couch a few feet away to experience the "retina" display.

ebf 15y ago
They list 2560x1440 on a 10" screen as a common display size for Windows 8. That puts it at 291 DPI compared to the new iPad's 264 DPI.
jlgosse 15y ago
10.1", 2560x1440 (291 DPI) is clearly labeled in the graphic, "Common sizes for Windows 8". It's probably best to read the entire article and look at all the pretty pictures before commenting
cooldeal 15y ago
I am not surprised you'd miss something that others are able to see in a MS post :) See the left top corner of this picture: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-43-metablogapi/8468.Scaling_2D002D002D00_Common_2D00_Sizes_5F00_5E732919.jpg http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-bl...

cooldeal 15y ago

What's up with the disgusting flagging going on with Microsoft related stories? http://imgur.com/IlAn2.jpg http://imgur.com/IlAn2.jpg The hater fanboys here have even gotten Winsupersite banned from HN. This is really pathetic abuse of the flag feature for personal agendas.