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> In the case of a woman who has a fully developed muscular system and has had ample physical exertion all through the pregnancy, as is common with all more pr

> In the case of a woman who has a fully developed muscular system and has had ample physical exertion all through the pregnancy, as is common with all more primitive peoples, nature provides all the necessary equipment and power to have a normal and quick delivery. This is not the case, however, with more civilized Women who often do not have the opportunity to develop the muscles needed in confinement. Ignoring the depressingly-predictable classist/colonialist tone, it's interesting to note that modern medicine recommends things like pelvic floor exercises to help with childbirth, primarily to prevent unwanted urination during childbirth and incontinence afterwards it seems. But this observation - if correct - might lead us to conclude that certain types of exercise help the actual act of childbirth more than others. Do we know if this has been corroborated / debunked? I'm wondering if there are any agencies out there with specific recommendations for those who are trying for a baby, for exercises that are actually proven to make childbirth quicker or less painful?

IshKebab 3y ago
It's also nonsense. It's not about having muscles, it's about having children aged 13 instead of 30.
- Jolter 3y ago
  A 13-year old is actually very likely to develop serious complications if pregnant. Their body is not developed enough for childbirth.
goodluckchuck 3y ago
One that was recommended in the literature (and I suppose makes sense) was stretching.
fatbaby 3y ago
[flagged]
- watwut 3y ago
  I do not think it is appropriate to imply non western people are "less civilized" or call them "primitive". Also, the part about "civilized Women who often do not have the opportunity to develop the muscles needed in confinement" is simply untrue today. We all have tons of opportunities to develop whatever muscles we desire to develop. We just need to take those opportunities. Note that western people, including women, exercise a lot. Including or especially middle and upper class ones. Conversely, if you need to spend whole day in the market, selling stuff and plus you care about 4 kids and plus you are barely able to feed family, you wont be running 10km daily or what not.
  - fatbaby 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Say what you mean. If you mean with some weak or atrophied muscles, say that. Don't use "civilized" to hide that fact because it means someone in good shape would be "primitive". Which means not only the choice of words is in fact classist/colonialist, it is also not a very logical statement (sorta fine on HN but sorta bad for a scientific paper). But yeah, times were different (as a statement of fact, no sarcasm).
      - fatbaby 3y ago
        [flagged]
        bqmjjx0kac 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - 9dev 3y ago
      Primitive implies of lesser intelligence, sophistication, and education. I’m pretty sure you’d be offended if anyone called you primitive, so why is it surprising to you that people from non-western cultures prefer not to be called primitive? Additionally, the word „civilised“ carries lots of baggage from slavery. Unless you’re intentionally insinuating that, there is literally no reason to use that word today, anymore.
watwut 3y ago
I do not know any recommendations for quicker/less painful childbirth. However, pregnant women do currently get completely different advice then they used to. As in, advice for me was to continue doing sport normally, just not stuff where you risk falls or hits (skiing, climbing, box). You get obvious advice to not overdo it, but hiking, running, swimming, cycling, dancing etc are recommended. Anecdotally, older generation tended to act as if I was irresponsible or somehow courageous for doing these, recalling that they had been expected to stop all that for the sake of a baby. > with more civilized Women who often do not have the opportunity to develop the muscles needed in confinement. Note massive cultural shift in here even outside of pregnancy - western women have all the chances in the world to develop any muscles they please. More or less, we are expected to care about fitness or it is at least normal to care about it.
entwife 3y ago
There exist gyms and personal training education for pregnant and postpartum women. I considered sharing one here, but I realized that the comportment of many on HN would be disruptive to them.
causi 3y ago
Ignoring the depressingly-predictable classist/colonialist tone Isn't it an anti-classist tone if anything? It's associating "civilization" with weakness, confinement, and a lack of opportunity, and associating primitive living with fully developed muscles and says it provides for a normal and quick delivery. How is that not an endorsement of primitive living? I don't see how you can call that paragraph colonialist unless you see the word "civilized" and just turn your brain off.
- LBTables 3y ago
  Yeah I think it's pretty undisputed there are downsides to the current day "civilized" life of office jobs and automotive vehicles consisting of precious little necessitated physical exertion or exercise of any type.
- howenterprisey 3y ago
  1) It divides people into "primitive" and "civilized", which delineates an ingroup and outgroup; 2) The document is written for civilized people, because surely the document wouldn't call its readers primitive; 3) The flip side of "developed muscles" is "barbaric lifestyle" - the "proper" thing for women at the time was NOT to develop said muscles, but rather to maintain a "trim figure" ("one of the best exercises for a woman are her household duties, and that besides those she doesn't need more exercise", from a 1941 article); 4) In sum, given the context, the "endorsement" is a grudging admission that on this one issue the "primitive" women might be stronger, but in no way an overall endorsement of the lifestyle.
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    > "barbaric lifestyle" > "trim figure" Where are you getting these quotes from?
    - howenterprisey 3y ago
      First are scare quotes, second is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_women%27s_fitness_culture#cite_note-21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_women%27s_fitness..., the title of a 1967 article.

IshKebab 3y ago

It's also nonsense. It's not about having muscles, it's about having children aged 13 instead of 30.

Jolter 3y ago
A 13-year old is actually very likely to develop serious complications if pregnant. Their body is not developed enough for childbirth.

goodluckchuck 3y ago

One that was recommended in the literature (and I suppose makes sense) was stretching.

fatbaby 3y ago

[flagged]

watwut 3y ago
I do not think it is appropriate to imply non western people are "less civilized" or call them "primitive". Also, the part about "civilized Women who often do not have the opportunity to develop the muscles needed in confinement" is simply untrue today. We all have tons of opportunities to develop whatever muscles we desire to develop. We just need to take those opportunities. Note that western people, including women, exercise a lot. Including or especially middle and upper class ones. Conversely, if you need to spend whole day in the market, selling stuff and plus you care about 4 kids and plus you are barely able to feed family, you wont be running 10km daily or what not.
- fatbaby 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    Say what you mean. If you mean with some weak or atrophied muscles, say that. Don't use "civilized" to hide that fact because it means someone in good shape would be "primitive". Which means not only the choice of words is in fact classist/colonialist, it is also not a very logical statement (sorta fine on HN but sorta bad for a scientific paper). But yeah, times were different (as a statement of fact, no sarcasm).
    - fatbaby 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - bqmjjx0kac 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - 9dev 3y ago
    Primitive implies of lesser intelligence, sophistication, and education. I’m pretty sure you’d be offended if anyone called you primitive, so why is it surprising to you that people from non-western cultures prefer not to be called primitive? Additionally, the word „civilised“ carries lots of baggage from slavery. Unless you’re intentionally insinuating that, there is literally no reason to use that word today, anymore.

watwut 3y ago

I do not know any recommendations for quicker/less painful childbirth. However, pregnant women do currently get completely different advice then they used to. As in, advice for me was to continue doing sport normally, just not stuff where you risk falls or hits (skiing, climbing, box). You get obvious advice to not overdo it, but hiking, running, swimming, cycling, dancing etc are recommended. Anecdotally, older generation tended to act as if I was irresponsible or somehow courageous for doing these, recalling that they had been expected to stop all that for the sake of a baby. > with more civilized Women who often do not have the opportunity to develop the muscles needed in confinement. Note massive cultural shift in here even outside of pregnancy - western women have all the chances in the world to develop any muscles they please. More or less, we are expected to care about fitness or it is at least normal to care about it.

entwife 3y ago

There exist gyms and personal training education for pregnant and postpartum women. I considered sharing one here, but I realized that the comportment of many on HN would be disruptive to them.

causi 3y ago

Ignoring the depressingly-predictable classist/colonialist tone Isn't it an anti-classist tone if anything? It's associating "civilization" with weakness, confinement, and a lack of opportunity, and associating primitive living with fully developed muscles and says it provides for a normal and quick delivery. How is that not an endorsement of primitive living? I don't see how you can call that paragraph colonialist unless you see the word "civilized" and just turn your brain off.

LBTables 3y ago
Yeah I think it's pretty undisputed there are downsides to the current day "civilized" life of office jobs and automotive vehicles consisting of precious little necessitated physical exertion or exercise of any type.
howenterprisey 3y ago
1) It divides people into "primitive" and "civilized", which delineates an ingroup and outgroup; 2) The document is written for civilized people, because surely the document wouldn't call its readers primitive; 3) The flip side of "developed muscles" is "barbaric lifestyle" - the "proper" thing for women at the time was NOT to develop said muscles, but rather to maintain a "trim figure" ("one of the best exercises for a woman are her household duties, and that besides those she doesn't need more exercise", from a 1941 article); 4) In sum, given the context, the "endorsement" is a grudging admission that on this one issue the "primitive" women might be stronger, but in no way an overall endorsement of the lifestyle.
- Chris2048 3y ago
  > "barbaric lifestyle" > "trim figure" Where are you getting these quotes from?
  - howenterprisey 3y ago
    First are scare quotes, second is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_women%27s_fitness_culture#cite_note-21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_women%27s_fitness..., the title of a 1967 article.