7 ms·

Emotions: A Code Book

139 points by KentBeck 3y ago

sdwr 3y ago
Interesting how you say "geek", because this is definitely the geek approach (this information is "out there" to be learned) vs the nerd approach (building mastery over the subject). Emotions are about other people, and about social positioning. Traditional self-help gets away with murder when it talks about "exploring your emotions" as a personal thing. "Exploring your emotions" really means acting on other people, which you illustrated well.
- jrvarela56 3y ago
  > Emotions are about other people, and about social positioning That's... one way to put it for sure. Emotions can teach you about yourself: what you like/dislike, what actions you are likely to take after a trigger, how you respond if others act a certain way (as you mention), what situations are more/less likely to impact you in different ways, etc. Understanding what you feel will help you become a better thinker. We're constantly being tugged around by our mind and emotions are a big part of that push/pull. We think we're rational but most of our mind does not work that way and has subtle ways to nudge us. This can be an exploration about yourself exclusively if you make it so. You could climb a mountain to avoid contact with other human beings and still learn about yourself by paying attention to your emotions.
- roguecoder 3y ago
  ...how do you plan to "master" something you don't understand and aren't curious about?
  - sdwr 3y ago
    Nice try, geek! In all seriousness, I believe that mastery is a learnable, transferrable skill. Knowing what improving feels like, what stagnating feels like, how much complexity to load on, finding the experts... There is nothing nerdier than meta-
jrvarela56 3y ago
Useful concept. I used to call them 'signals': like alarms going off that I should pay attention as they may be telling me something. Specially when the alarm goes off for no good reason: my mind is trying to tell me something I'm not aware of (anxiety/depression are some of these). Learning about my emotions is the only other thing that has changed my life for the better comparable to learning about computers. 10/10 would recommend trying to understand how to deal with you 'inner monkey'. You've been rooming with it in your mind since the day you were born and how you relate to it shapes every aspect of your life.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  I think Scribblenauts (and maybe The Sims) implemented emotions in a similar way. When a character feels Hungry, their directive becomes "find food." Hunger is going to take precedence over Boredom's directive ("find toys"). I don't know if they're technically signals or states or something else; there seem to be conditions by which some are triggered, and circumstances by which some just become True/False when other conditions are met/unmet. So your theory seems to work. The only exception is anything depression-related, because what are you supposed to do about it (it's a nebulous emotion whose drivers we cannot fully articulate, which makes "find joy" as useless a directive as "overthrow capitalist society," "take SSRIs" and "touch grass").
  - jrvarela56 3y ago
    I think something like depression is just one of these signals ignored for long enough that it becomes a constant state of mind. At that point it's literally a blurry signal to 'change something'.
  - roguecoder 3y ago
    I saw an interesting theory that "depression" is a set of signals pointing us to solve a problem: it lets us skip eating, because we don't feel hunger, and sleep, because we have insomnia, and other things we would otherwise want to do, since we have trouble caring about anything. It lets us think about one problem for a long time without being distracted, because we ruminate on it. We don't get discouraged by failures, because we don't care about anything the way we usually would. It's sort of like a computer down-clocking when it is overheating. The problem comes because there are a lot of different mechanisms that can trigger that set of circuitry. So when depression is triggered by grief over a death, for example, no amount of time and energy and not eating is going to bring them back. And sometimes it wasn't kicked off by anything in particular at all, or our brain gets stuck in that mode even after whatever kicked it off gets solved. At that point there is a tendency to look for a problem that is so overwhelming it can explain why we ought to stay in that mode, whether or not it is being useful to us. I like this explanation because it matches my experience. Personally my depression was because I had undiagnosed ADHD: I was constantly grieving my inability to accomplish things I wanted to do and enjoyed for no conceivable reason. And in this case it even actually kind of did its job: I stuck with the medical profession through an unbelievably long journey to getting that diagnosis and the easy and extremely effective treatment, because I had trouble caring about anything including my repeated failures to get any help at all from what medical professionals offered.
Tade0 3y ago
I can't help but feel sceptical about this - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall psychiatrists/psychologists explaining emotions as a "call" to do something. > Boredom—a call to do something I am avoiding. This is actually an evolutionary mechanism preventing us from expending energy on things with a low probability of success. Only problem is, our brains haven't changed much over the last 200k years and they can't assess relatively recent stuff like doing taxes or filing for divorce, so these things go to the default category of "not worth doing". One way to go around this is to imagine how you will feel when it's done - not guaranteed to help, but at least it's actionable.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Psychiatrists/psychologists have a lengthy history of being wildly incorrect or openly fraudulent about a lot of things, and in not-so-distant history. Don't expect them to have this all figured out. Boredom is a good example of a bad call. That sounds like how he internalizes it, but it's definitely not true for everyone. It signals lack of anything challenging. A starving man is seldom bored. Same with: > Hatred—a call to accept something about myself I don’t like. This one's just dumb. This is the logic behind "I hate gays, ergo I must be one." Glad we figured that out. Now explain "I hate blacks, Asians and Italians." Hatred--real, actual hatred, not the pithy SJW definition--is borne from fear, ignorance, or grief. It is not a signal of introspection.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    My gripe is that the author in question holds a master's in education - not psychology, not an MD, and produces theories that are not aligned with established practice - meaning this book is likely harmful bull.
  - 7373737373 3y ago
    I'd extend the definition to > Hatred - a call to accept or change something about myself or (my relation to) the world I don't like
  - solarmist 3y ago
    > Hatred Or threat. Not as common in industrialized life though.
th0ma5 3y ago
A counselor told me emotions are another information input about what you value, and you can take them or leave them as far as acting on them, but you can't avoid feeling them for them very long and be healthy.
la64710 3y ago
Anxiety it says is a call to pay attention to something I am ignoring. Not sure how because anxiety on the other hand makes me focus on something too closely and maybe instead I should step back and say F** it instead?
- schoen 3y ago
  We might say that anxiety is saying "you should mitigate this threat or fix this problem" or "you should mitigate this threat now! you should fix this problem now!". A challenge is that we don't know how to mitigate every threat or fix every problem, and we may never be able to do so in our current situations or in our whole lives. So there can be an additional challenge of saying "yep, I got the message, and unfortunately I've actually done what I can about this issue at this time!". (And maybe, if I remember correctly what I thought I understood from the SF Zen Center's anxiety class, "I appreciate that I'm a person who cares about mitigating this threat or fixing this problem; it's great that I can see the value and urgency of this".) We might say that, evolutionarily, acute anxiety, like acute physical pain from an injury, is hard to turn off merely by saying that we've gotten the message. Anxiety and pain serve as reminders of some of the most urgent problems we face, where procrastination could be very detrimental. But sometimes we need to find a way to say WONTFIX.
- roguecoder 3y ago
  Anxiety typically motivates some form of avoidance, as it is an attempt to keep ourselves safe. Every time we give in to anxiety and avoid a thing, it reinforces our anxious respons, so we become more and more avoidant of the thing we are anxious about over time. The solution typically suggested is to realistically consider the actual consequences of the worst-case scenario and sit with that until it stops being overwhelming. Then we can consider what we could do to mitigate that actual realistic worst-case possibility, and then after figuring out what it would take we get to decide if we want to put in all the effort to take those precautions or if actually it's fine, we can just do the thing despite our anxiety yelling at us. And when we do the thing and nothing bad happens, our body has a chance to learn that it is actually safe after all and it doesn't need to freak out trying to protect us. If instead we avoid the thing, that makes us more anxious in the future. And if we try to skip examining our fears and just muscle through, we'll end up associating doing the thing with feeling strung out on adrenaline, which also isn't great.
interroboink 3y ago
This reminds me of something I found useful: "Grok" cards[1]. I haven't really played the "games" they're packaged with, just using the cards to identify what's going on in a non-confrontational way. One useful thing is to distinguish between emotions and needs. I believe they're different colors on those cards (red vs. yellow). Also distinguishing emotions from judgements/perceptions is good (eg: "I feel ignored" is not really the feeling so much as a guess about _why_ you feel a certain way). Some other good resources from the same people: https://groktheworld.com/products/feelings-needs-body-sensations-lists https://groktheworld.com/products/feelings-needs-body-sensat... [1] https://groktheworld.com/collections/all-grok-products/products/grok-your-world https://groktheworld.com/collections/all-grok-products/produ...
antonkar 3y ago
Sorry for being harsh but this is pseudoscience. The most researched approach - CBT - says this: we can change our thoughts and it will change our emotions. Something happens, first we experience neutral arousal, our fast automatic thoughts color it and then we experience emotions. For example, we interpret this neutral arousal as anger if we think that another person did something intentionally, not by mistake/accident/because of tiredness... If we think that it was our mistake - we experience sadness. You thoughts are lines of code that cause your emotions and actions. You can rewrite your thoughts. I recommend counseling and reading the primary source - CBT Basics and Beyond by Beck - it’s very readable and simple. It’s like learning another programming language and rewriting your own brain OS. You’ll change your nonadaptive unhelpful thoughts to the adaptive helpful ones. P.S. Please, at least remove the line about suicidal thoughts. You should never say “change” to a suicidal person.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
  > The most researched approach - CBT While it's true that CBT is the most researched, virtually all of that research is on overall observed efficacy (and there are concerns that the efficacy that has been observed, especially in the earliest studies, is inflated by allegiance effects). That kind of research doesn't provide the tools to say anything about the validity of CBT's underlying conceptual/theoretical model, especially considering that CBT doesn't consistently outperform other modalities with radically different underlying models.
  - antonkar 3y ago
    One of the most proven things we have to manage depression and anger among others things (I regularly check the most recent meta analysis and CBT is always one of the top treatments by efficacy). What other psychological approach you consider more effective to manage depression? The writer of the article based it on the book by Karla McLaren M.Ed., as her Amazon page describes her “an award-winning author, social science researcher, and pioneering educator whose empathic approach to emotions revalues even the most “negative” emotions, and opens startling new pathways into the depths of the soul.” When was the last time scientists discussed souls? Here is her articles, make your own conclusions: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Karla+McLaren&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Karl... Compare them with Beck’s articles: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=aaron+beck&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=aaro...
roguecoder 3y ago
This matches with how every other form of feedback works: we get a signal expressed to us with the signals available, but it is up to us to trace back and derive from the signal what actually kicked it off. Think about it this way: when a user gives you some user feedback, you don't build the thing they tell you to build. Instead, you figure out what was frustrating them about the product that they wanted that thing build, and then you consider what the consequences of implementing various solutions to that underlying problem might be before you decide what to do with the feedback you got. I don't do what my emotions tell me to do, but that is no reason to ignore the underlying dynamics that sparked them.
anonymouse008 3y ago
If I could humbly offer an addendum, Anger's message is usually 'tell me what's really at issue here, and let's become a master of change' From what I've seen Anger is rarely ever 'justified' (and if it is, it's usually a primal self defense) - so let's call this "Emotional Anger" to remove the murkiness of imminent danger. At a high level, EA usually pairs deep helplessness with an inadequacy. A profound shift in my life has to been to ask questions aimed at the locus of change w.r.t. EA, 'so what exactly is the harm here? what am I trying to defend internally? why am I not calmly moving through the steps as a master who has seen all this before? if it's truly urgent, what are the ways to protect myself from the fallout should the change not arise? if it is truly helpless, why am I not changing my life? Am I addicted to this feeling? ...'
- antonkar 3y ago
  I can recommend this book. The most influential psychologist of our times explains the mechanics of anger. The basic idea is that we interpret the benign things like mistakes or tiredness of others as intentional and become angry at them. Our evolution predisposes us to interpret neutral events as intentionally directed against us. We can change that https://www.amazon.com/Prisoners-Hate-Cognitive-Hostility-Violence/dp/0060932007 https://www.amazon.com/Prisoners-Hate-Cognitive-Hostility-Vi...
  - lovelyviking 3y ago
    Seriously? This is what offers most influential psychologist of our time? So when an aggressor throws bomb and it is falling near by merely killing a person then one should not interpret it as intentional and should not become angry on those who through such things, right? According to your description of the basic idea one should not interpret falling bombs on his head as directed against him. It’s just a neutral event and probably some boys just having fun with throwing heavy things … including bombs. Perhaps people in Ukraine are unfamiliar with great works of this ‘most influential psychologist of our time’ and thus managed to survive and fight back.
    - jrvarela56 3y ago
cgio 3y ago
Emotions are not merely messages to trigger actions. Of course they reflect our state but not necessarily in an action imperative context. Sometimes emotion is just passive acceptance. I don’t disagree, and could not either, with a framework to process emotions. Just want to say that sometimes it’s ok to not directly address them in order to process them, to leave that envelope soaking halfway inside your mailbox. It’s ok to do nothing. Accept them not as nudges to become what you want to be but as reminders of who and what you are.
photochemsyn 3y ago
I assumed this would be a guide to understanding other people's emotional states based on the codes they were expressing (facial expressions, body posture, tone of voice, and so on). Non-verbal (unconscious?) communication seems to be an important feature of human emotional expression. People who never express any emotions at all tend to cause a certain degree of uneasiness in other people, although this is also characteristic of autism - and part of the treatment protocol for autism, I believe, is helping the subject learn how to express their emotional state to others, in a non-intrusive and situationally-appropriate manner. Geek/nerd-wise, the first thing that comes to mind is, what is an emotion? How does it differ from an animal instinct, or from a conscious thought expressed as a symbolic string? Consider, for example, the rather unpleasant emotionally manipulative human type, who first thinks "What emotion should I express now to get what I want" and then deliberately engages in that emotion to trigger a desired response in others. (Young children often have to be gently advised that this is not going to work, some are not taught this and so persist in this behavior as adults). Where does instinct become emotion become thought? Another interesting human behavioral type is the emotional button-pusher, who tries to elicit strong emotions in others, for their own usually unpleasant purposes. The best defense against this dark art is probably meditation, which in part involves learning how to recognize an emotional state at the moment it arises, before one takes any action on it. At the very least, a wise human recognizes that actions are best taken with at least a modicum of rational input, and should never be wholly emotional in nature. And sometimes, having a little cooling off period is the best option of all (particularly with strong emotions). On the other hand, the saying "trust your instincts" should not be disregarded.
- roguecoder 3y ago
  Depending on how young you mean by "young", young children don't have the cognitive capacity to fake emotional states, although many adults attribute that capacity to them. They don't even start understanding that it's a thing that is possible to do until five or six, much less understand their own performance of emotion sufficiently to convincingly portray a given emotion they decided they want someone else to believe that they feel. The first type of emotional deception children learn is suppressing their real feelings, rather than displaying sham feelings. Instead, children are taught to perform emotion in ways that are legible and acceptable to adults by having their genuine emotional expressions misconstrued as manipulative.
DoreenMichele 3y ago
Not bad. Some thoughts from me, in no way a rebuttal of the author's personal experiences: 1. Somatopsychic phenomenon is a thing. In other words some medical conditions have mental/emotional fallout as a side effect. Anxiety can be due to high adrenaline. Causes can include low blood sugar, allergic reaction, withdrawal. 2. Jealousy is not about what other people have. It's about what I lack. 3. Righteous anger is a force for good in this world. Anger is energy for action and depression is either exhaustion or a response of hunkering down to ride out the storm. Depending on the type of threat, sometimes hunkering down is the best practice and sometimes girding your loins for battle is the best response.
m463 3y ago
I remember reading once: depression is anger turned inwards. don't know if it is true.
javajosh 3y ago
As an aside, the opening disclaimer "get help from a professional" is, in my view, actively harmful. I'm not anti-therapy but I am anti-telling-others-they-need-therapy. The latter is simply a euphamism for "I don't want to talk to you about your problems". The reason can be as petty as the other person finding such talk to be unpleasant. The idea that you should pay someone to talk about your concerns, insights, struggles, degrades the concept of intimate friendship. I just don't buy it that people in the past didn't have the same thoughts, struggles and emotions. It's just that people listened to each other, however imperfectly, and did their best to help each other. Yes, obviously some situations are really out there (like an acute break from reality) but I'm talking about 'normal' stuff like depression, anxiety, guilt, and self-doubt. Our unwillingness to talk about this stuff with each other is bad, and "go see a therapist" is a cop out that degrades the norm of listening to each other. Obviously this is an article, not a friend, so the message should be "go talk to a friend".
- aftoprokrustes 3y ago
  I do not know. First, I take it just as a way to deny responsibility for any consequence of the advice in the article, the same way one starts with "I am not a lawyer" before giving half thought out legal advice. But second and more importantly, your conception that before people used to talk about mental health issues seems very romantic and unrealistic. People from older generations, at least in the two cultures in my family, tend not to talk about emotions at all. The most striking example is that of my father's grandfather, who fought in the first world war and could not enter a forest for the rest of his life and get very pale and shaky in the vicinity of one (what we would today call PTSD). So what did his wife do when she wanted to collect mushrooms? "Just drive me there and stay in the car, if you do not want to man up. It's just trees, you idiot". You cannot talk about your weaknesses when you are expected to be strong and unbreakable. What a therapist can offer is a space where those expectations of society do not hold, and where the fear of looking weak or dumb can decrease a bit.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    >It's just trees, you idiot I suppose this is why we distinguish between wives and friends. Also, compassion is not a new invention, nor is the absence of compassion in people. It sounds like your great-grandma was a jerk, even for her time. They called it "shell shock" back then, btw.
aftoprokrustes 3y ago
I would advise against this kind of "intellectualizing" of emotions, particularly if you are a "brainy" person. Decoding the emotion as an intellectual puzzle can feel comforting, because juggling with concepts and theoretical models is what a brainy person does, but it will necessarily obscure a lot. But an emotion is not a concept, it is physical. You should listen to it, but not in the head: just allow yourself to feel it, to permeate your body, to evoque images... And often an intuitive call to action will emerge. It might just be internal action, or it might be a growing desire to quit your job to go work in another field or do social service or whatever. The thing is that the conviction that comes out of repeteadly listening to the emotions in the body is much stronger than the one that comes from rational thinking alone. And it can often be something you would never have thought about just by pondering. Take the example of grief. What is the rational interpretation? "My mother was there, and now she is not". Or worse, "it shows how much time I lost when she was alive, and now it is gone". Absolutely useless insight, probably just makes the pain worsen. Maybe it makes you feel guilty and intellectually decide to "engage deeper in my relationships with the living", but in the few cases of this decision I witnessed it did not really work, because this was just abstract and filled with guilt and shame. But allowing yourself to feel the grief and be sad can open a sense of devotion and respect to the dead. This intense pain can feel like the universe paying respect to the person that is now gone. And out of it can come a new way of interacting with the world and others, and maybe a newfound perspective on life. But the important part is that this kind of happens by itself, as currents and sensations in the body, over time, bottom-up, rather than as the result of solving an intellectual puzzle and coming eith a top down solution a out how you ought to live your life and feel from now on. Obviously, this is just my own conclusion out of my own journey, and YMMV and all that sort of things.
- arvinsim 3y ago
  I read a book, Calming the Emotional Storm, that calls for this approach of feeling emotions, not intellectualizing them.
  - lovelyviking 3y ago
    In my experience usually such advices like feeling emotions rather then intellectualising them come from people who simply incapable of intellectualising them.

139 points by KentBeck 3y ago

sdwr 3y ago

Interesting how you say "geek", because this is definitely the geek approach (this information is "out there" to be learned) vs the nerd approach (building mastery over the subject). Emotions are about other people, and about social positioning. Traditional self-help gets away with murder when it talks about "exploring your emotions" as a personal thing. "Exploring your emotions" really means acting on other people, which you illustrated well.

jrvarela56 3y ago
> Emotions are about other people, and about social positioning That's... one way to put it for sure. Emotions can teach you about yourself: what you like/dislike, what actions you are likely to take after a trigger, how you respond if others act a certain way (as you mention), what situations are more/less likely to impact you in different ways, etc. Understanding what you feel will help you become a better thinker. We're constantly being tugged around by our mind and emotions are a big part of that push/pull. We think we're rational but most of our mind does not work that way and has subtle ways to nudge us. This can be an exploration about yourself exclusively if you make it so. You could climb a mountain to avoid contact with other human beings and still learn about yourself by paying attention to your emotions.
roguecoder 3y ago
...how do you plan to "master" something you don't understand and aren't curious about?
- sdwr 3y ago
  Nice try, geek! In all seriousness, I believe that mastery is a learnable, transferrable skill. Knowing what improving feels like, what stagnating feels like, how much complexity to load on, finding the experts... There is nothing nerdier than meta-

jrvarela56 3y ago

Useful concept. I used to call them 'signals': like alarms going off that I should pay attention as they may be telling me something. Specially when the alarm goes off for no good reason: my mind is trying to tell me something I'm not aware of (anxiety/depression are some of these). Learning about my emotions is the only other thing that has changed my life for the better comparable to learning about computers. 10/10 would recommend trying to understand how to deal with you 'inner monkey'. You've been rooming with it in your mind since the day you were born and how you relate to it shapes every aspect of your life.

jstarfish 3y ago
I think Scribblenauts (and maybe The Sims) implemented emotions in a similar way. When a character feels Hungry, their directive becomes "find food." Hunger is going to take precedence over Boredom's directive ("find toys"). I don't know if they're technically signals or states or something else; there seem to be conditions by which some are triggered, and circumstances by which some just become True/False when other conditions are met/unmet. So your theory seems to work. The only exception is anything depression-related, because what are you supposed to do about it (it's a nebulous emotion whose drivers we cannot fully articulate, which makes "find joy" as useless a directive as "overthrow capitalist society," "take SSRIs" and "touch grass").
- jrvarela56 3y ago
  I think something like depression is just one of these signals ignored for long enough that it becomes a constant state of mind. At that point it's literally a blurry signal to 'change something'.
- roguecoder 3y ago
  I saw an interesting theory that "depression" is a set of signals pointing us to solve a problem: it lets us skip eating, because we don't feel hunger, and sleep, because we have insomnia, and other things we would otherwise want to do, since we have trouble caring about anything. It lets us think about one problem for a long time without being distracted, because we ruminate on it. We don't get discouraged by failures, because we don't care about anything the way we usually would. It's sort of like a computer down-clocking when it is overheating. The problem comes because there are a lot of different mechanisms that can trigger that set of circuitry. So when depression is triggered by grief over a death, for example, no amount of time and energy and not eating is going to bring them back. And sometimes it wasn't kicked off by anything in particular at all, or our brain gets stuck in that mode even after whatever kicked it off gets solved. At that point there is a tendency to look for a problem that is so overwhelming it can explain why we ought to stay in that mode, whether or not it is being useful to us. I like this explanation because it matches my experience. Personally my depression was because I had undiagnosed ADHD: I was constantly grieving my inability to accomplish things I wanted to do and enjoyed for no conceivable reason. And in this case it even actually kind of did its job: I stuck with the medical profession through an unbelievably long journey to getting that diagnosis and the easy and extremely effective treatment, because I had trouble caring about anything including my repeated failures to get any help at all from what medical professionals offered.

Tade0 3y ago

I can't help but feel sceptical about this - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall psychiatrists/psychologists explaining emotions as a "call" to do something. > Boredom—a call to do something I am avoiding. This is actually an evolutionary mechanism preventing us from expending energy on things with a low probability of success. Only problem is, our brains haven't changed much over the last 200k years and they can't assess relatively recent stuff like doing taxes or filing for divorce, so these things go to the default category of "not worth doing". One way to go around this is to imagine how you will feel when it's done - not guaranteed to help, but at least it's actionable.

jstarfish 3y ago
Psychiatrists/psychologists have a lengthy history of being wildly incorrect or openly fraudulent about a lot of things, and in not-so-distant history. Don't expect them to have this all figured out. Boredom is a good example of a bad call. That sounds like how he internalizes it, but it's definitely not true for everyone. It signals lack of anything challenging. A starving man is seldom bored. Same with: > Hatred—a call to accept something about myself I don’t like. This one's just dumb. This is the logic behind "I hate gays, ergo I must be one." Glad we figured that out. Now explain "I hate blacks, Asians and Italians." Hatred--real, actual hatred, not the pithy SJW definition--is borne from fear, ignorance, or grief. It is not a signal of introspection.
- Tade0 3y ago
  My gripe is that the author in question holds a master's in education - not psychology, not an MD, and produces theories that are not aligned with established practice - meaning this book is likely harmful bull.
- 7373737373 3y ago
  I'd extend the definition to > Hatred - a call to accept or change something about myself or (my relation to) the world I don't like
- solarmist 3y ago
  > Hatred Or threat. Not as common in industrialized life though.

th0ma5 3y ago

A counselor told me emotions are another information input about what you value, and you can take them or leave them as far as acting on them, but you can't avoid feeling them for them very long and be healthy.

la64710 3y ago

Anxiety it says is a call to pay attention to something I am ignoring. Not sure how because anxiety on the other hand makes me focus on something too closely and maybe instead I should step back and say F** it instead?

schoen 3y ago
We might say that anxiety is saying "you should mitigate this threat or fix this problem" or "you should mitigate this threat now! you should fix this problem now!". A challenge is that we don't know how to mitigate every threat or fix every problem, and we may never be able to do so in our current situations or in our whole lives. So there can be an additional challenge of saying "yep, I got the message, and unfortunately I've actually done what I can about this issue at this time!". (And maybe, if I remember correctly what I thought I understood from the SF Zen Center's anxiety class, "I appreciate that I'm a person who cares about mitigating this threat or fixing this problem; it's great that I can see the value and urgency of this".) We might say that, evolutionarily, acute anxiety, like acute physical pain from an injury, is hard to turn off merely by saying that we've gotten the message. Anxiety and pain serve as reminders of some of the most urgent problems we face, where procrastination could be very detrimental. But sometimes we need to find a way to say WONTFIX.
roguecoder 3y ago
Anxiety typically motivates some form of avoidance, as it is an attempt to keep ourselves safe. Every time we give in to anxiety and avoid a thing, it reinforces our anxious respons, so we become more and more avoidant of the thing we are anxious about over time. The solution typically suggested is to realistically consider the actual consequences of the worst-case scenario and sit with that until it stops being overwhelming. Then we can consider what we could do to mitigate that actual realistic worst-case possibility, and then after figuring out what it would take we get to decide if we want to put in all the effort to take those precautions or if actually it's fine, we can just do the thing despite our anxiety yelling at us. And when we do the thing and nothing bad happens, our body has a chance to learn that it is actually safe after all and it doesn't need to freak out trying to protect us. If instead we avoid the thing, that makes us more anxious in the future. And if we try to skip examining our fears and just muscle through, we'll end up associating doing the thing with feeling strung out on adrenaline, which also isn't great.

interroboink 3y ago

This reminds me of something I found useful: "Grok" cards[1]. I haven't really played the "games" they're packaged with, just using the cards to identify what's going on in a non-confrontational way. One useful thing is to distinguish between emotions and needs. I believe they're different colors on those cards (red vs. yellow). Also distinguishing emotions from judgements/perceptions is good (eg: "I feel ignored" is not really the feeling so much as a guess about _why_ you feel a certain way). Some other good resources from the same people: https://groktheworld.com/products/feelings-needs-body-sensations-lists https://groktheworld.com/products/feelings-needs-body-sensat... [1] https://groktheworld.com/collections/all-grok-products/products/grok-your-world https://groktheworld.com/collections/all-grok-products/produ...

antonkar 3y ago

Sorry for being harsh but this is pseudoscience. The most researched approach - CBT - says this: we can change our thoughts and it will change our emotions. Something happens, first we experience neutral arousal, our fast automatic thoughts color it and then we experience emotions. For example, we interpret this neutral arousal as anger if we think that another person did something intentionally, not by mistake/accident/because of tiredness... If we think that it was our mistake - we experience sadness. You thoughts are lines of code that cause your emotions and actions. You can rewrite your thoughts. I recommend counseling and reading the primary source - CBT Basics and Beyond by Beck - it’s very readable and simple. It’s like learning another programming language and rewriting your own brain OS. You’ll change your nonadaptive unhelpful thoughts to the adaptive helpful ones. P.S. Please, at least remove the line about suicidal thoughts. You should never say “change” to a suicidal person.

0xcde4c3db 3y ago
> The most researched approach - CBT While it's true that CBT is the most researched, virtually all of that research is on overall observed efficacy (and there are concerns that the efficacy that has been observed, especially in the earliest studies, is inflated by allegiance effects). That kind of research doesn't provide the tools to say anything about the validity of CBT's underlying conceptual/theoretical model, especially considering that CBT doesn't consistently outperform other modalities with radically different underlying models.
- antonkar 3y ago
  One of the most proven things we have to manage depression and anger among others things (I regularly check the most recent meta analysis and CBT is always one of the top treatments by efficacy). What other psychological approach you consider more effective to manage depression? The writer of the article based it on the book by Karla McLaren M.Ed., as her Amazon page describes her “an award-winning author, social science researcher, and pioneering educator whose empathic approach to emotions revalues even the most “negative” emotions, and opens startling new pathways into the depths of the soul.” When was the last time scientists discussed souls? Here is her articles, make your own conclusions: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Karla+McLaren&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Karl... Compare them with Beck’s articles: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=aaron+beck&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=aaro...

roguecoder 3y ago

This matches with how every other form of feedback works: we get a signal expressed to us with the signals available, but it is up to us to trace back and derive from the signal what actually kicked it off. Think about it this way: when a user gives you some user feedback, you don't build the thing they tell you to build. Instead, you figure out what was frustrating them about the product that they wanted that thing build, and then you consider what the consequences of implementing various solutions to that underlying problem might be before you decide what to do with the feedback you got. I don't do what my emotions tell me to do, but that is no reason to ignore the underlying dynamics that sparked them.

anonymouse008 3y ago

If I could humbly offer an addendum, Anger's message is usually 'tell me what's really at issue here, and let's become a master of change' From what I've seen Anger is rarely ever 'justified' (and if it is, it's usually a primal self defense) - so let's call this "Emotional Anger" to remove the murkiness of imminent danger. At a high level, EA usually pairs deep helplessness with an inadequacy. A profound shift in my life has to been to ask questions aimed at the locus of change w.r.t. EA, 'so what exactly is the harm here? what am I trying to defend internally? why am I not calmly moving through the steps as a master who has seen all this before? if it's truly urgent, what are the ways to protect myself from the fallout should the change not arise? if it is truly helpless, why am I not changing my life? Am I addicted to this feeling? ...'

antonkar 3y ago
I can recommend this book. The most influential psychologist of our times explains the mechanics of anger. The basic idea is that we interpret the benign things like mistakes or tiredness of others as intentional and become angry at them. Our evolution predisposes us to interpret neutral events as intentionally directed against us. We can change that https://www.amazon.com/Prisoners-Hate-Cognitive-Hostility-Violence/dp/0060932007 https://www.amazon.com/Prisoners-Hate-Cognitive-Hostility-Vi...
- lovelyviking 3y ago
  Seriously? This is what offers most influential psychologist of our time? So when an aggressor throws bomb and it is falling near by merely killing a person then one should not interpret it as intentional and should not become angry on those who through such things, right? According to your description of the basic idea one should not interpret falling bombs on his head as directed against him. It’s just a neutral event and probably some boys just having fun with throwing heavy things … including bombs. Perhaps people in Ukraine are unfamiliar with great works of this ‘most influential psychologist of our time’ and thus managed to survive and fight back.
  - jrvarela56 3y ago

cgio 3y ago

Emotions are not merely messages to trigger actions. Of course they reflect our state but not necessarily in an action imperative context. Sometimes emotion is just passive acceptance. I don’t disagree, and could not either, with a framework to process emotions. Just want to say that sometimes it’s ok to not directly address them in order to process them, to leave that envelope soaking halfway inside your mailbox. It’s ok to do nothing. Accept them not as nudges to become what you want to be but as reminders of who and what you are.

photochemsyn 3y ago

I assumed this would be a guide to understanding other people's emotional states based on the codes they were expressing (facial expressions, body posture, tone of voice, and so on). Non-verbal (unconscious?) communication seems to be an important feature of human emotional expression. People who never express any emotions at all tend to cause a certain degree of uneasiness in other people, although this is also characteristic of autism - and part of the treatment protocol for autism, I believe, is helping the subject learn how to express their emotional state to others, in a non-intrusive and situationally-appropriate manner. Geek/nerd-wise, the first thing that comes to mind is, what is an emotion? How does it differ from an animal instinct, or from a conscious thought expressed as a symbolic string? Consider, for example, the rather unpleasant emotionally manipulative human type, who first thinks "What emotion should I express now to get what I want" and then deliberately engages in that emotion to trigger a desired response in others. (Young children often have to be gently advised that this is not going to work, some are not taught this and so persist in this behavior as adults). Where does instinct become emotion become thought? Another interesting human behavioral type is the emotional button-pusher, who tries to elicit strong emotions in others, for their own usually unpleasant purposes. The best defense against this dark art is probably meditation, which in part involves learning how to recognize an emotional state at the moment it arises, before one takes any action on it. At the very least, a wise human recognizes that actions are best taken with at least a modicum of rational input, and should never be wholly emotional in nature. And sometimes, having a little cooling off period is the best option of all (particularly with strong emotions). On the other hand, the saying "trust your instincts" should not be disregarded.

roguecoder 3y ago
Depending on how young you mean by "young", young children don't have the cognitive capacity to fake emotional states, although many adults attribute that capacity to them. They don't even start understanding that it's a thing that is possible to do until five or six, much less understand their own performance of emotion sufficiently to convincingly portray a given emotion they decided they want someone else to believe that they feel. The first type of emotional deception children learn is suppressing their real feelings, rather than displaying sham feelings. Instead, children are taught to perform emotion in ways that are legible and acceptable to adults by having their genuine emotional expressions misconstrued as manipulative.

DoreenMichele 3y ago

Not bad. Some thoughts from me, in no way a rebuttal of the author's personal experiences: 1. Somatopsychic phenomenon is a thing. In other words some medical conditions have mental/emotional fallout as a side effect. Anxiety can be due to high adrenaline. Causes can include low blood sugar, allergic reaction, withdrawal. 2. Jealousy is not about what other people have. It's about what I lack. 3. Righteous anger is a force for good in this world. Anger is energy for action and depression is either exhaustion or a response of hunkering down to ride out the storm. Depending on the type of threat, sometimes hunkering down is the best practice and sometimes girding your loins for battle is the best response.

m463 3y ago

I remember reading once: depression is anger turned inwards. don't know if it is true.

javajosh 3y ago

As an aside, the opening disclaimer "get help from a professional" is, in my view, actively harmful. I'm not anti-therapy but I am anti-telling-others-they-need-therapy. The latter is simply a euphamism for "I don't want to talk to you about your problems". The reason can be as petty as the other person finding such talk to be unpleasant. The idea that you should pay someone to talk about your concerns, insights, struggles, degrades the concept of intimate friendship. I just don't buy it that people in the past didn't have the same thoughts, struggles and emotions. It's just that people listened to each other, however imperfectly, and did their best to help each other. Yes, obviously some situations are really out there (like an acute break from reality) but I'm talking about 'normal' stuff like depression, anxiety, guilt, and self-doubt. Our unwillingness to talk about this stuff with each other is bad, and "go see a therapist" is a cop out that degrades the norm of listening to each other. Obviously this is an article, not a friend, so the message should be "go talk to a friend".

aftoprokrustes 3y ago
I do not know. First, I take it just as a way to deny responsibility for any consequence of the advice in the article, the same way one starts with "I am not a lawyer" before giving half thought out legal advice. But second and more importantly, your conception that before people used to talk about mental health issues seems very romantic and unrealistic. People from older generations, at least in the two cultures in my family, tend not to talk about emotions at all. The most striking example is that of my father's grandfather, who fought in the first world war and could not enter a forest for the rest of his life and get very pale and shaky in the vicinity of one (what we would today call PTSD). So what did his wife do when she wanted to collect mushrooms? "Just drive me there and stay in the car, if you do not want to man up. It's just trees, you idiot". You cannot talk about your weaknesses when you are expected to be strong and unbreakable. What a therapist can offer is a space where those expectations of society do not hold, and where the fear of looking weak or dumb can decrease a bit.
- javajosh 3y ago
  >It's just trees, you idiot I suppose this is why we distinguish between wives and friends. Also, compassion is not a new invention, nor is the absence of compassion in people. It sounds like your great-grandma was a jerk, even for her time. They called it "shell shock" back then, btw.

aftoprokrustes 3y ago

I would advise against this kind of "intellectualizing" of emotions, particularly if you are a "brainy" person. Decoding the emotion as an intellectual puzzle can feel comforting, because juggling with concepts and theoretical models is what a brainy person does, but it will necessarily obscure a lot. But an emotion is not a concept, it is physical. You should listen to it, but not in the head: just allow yourself to feel it, to permeate your body, to evoque images... And often an intuitive call to action will emerge. It might just be internal action, or it might be a growing desire to quit your job to go work in another field or do social service or whatever. The thing is that the conviction that comes out of repeteadly listening to the emotions in the body is much stronger than the one that comes from rational thinking alone. And it can often be something you would never have thought about just by pondering. Take the example of grief. What is the rational interpretation? "My mother was there, and now she is not". Or worse, "it shows how much time I lost when she was alive, and now it is gone". Absolutely useless insight, probably just makes the pain worsen. Maybe it makes you feel guilty and intellectually decide to "engage deeper in my relationships with the living", but in the few cases of this decision I witnessed it did not really work, because this was just abstract and filled with guilt and shame. But allowing yourself to feel the grief and be sad can open a sense of devotion and respect to the dead. This intense pain can feel like the universe paying respect to the person that is now gone. And out of it can come a new way of interacting with the world and others, and maybe a newfound perspective on life. But the important part is that this kind of happens by itself, as currents and sensations in the body, over time, bottom-up, rather than as the result of solving an intellectual puzzle and coming eith a top down solution a out how you ought to live your life and feel from now on. Obviously, this is just my own conclusion out of my own journey, and YMMV and all that sort of things.

arvinsim 3y ago
I read a book, Calming the Emotional Storm, that calls for this approach of feeling emotions, not intellectualizing them.
- lovelyviking 3y ago
  In my experience usually such advices like feeling emotions rather then intellectualising them come from people who simply incapable of intellectualising them.