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What is a "frame trap", and why do people get irrationally upset by the US doing well at something or the EU doing poorly? This post is about GDP growth. What

What is a "frame trap", and why do people get irrationally upset by the US doing well at something or the EU doing poorly? This post is about GDP growth. What has life expectancy got to do with it, and how are you contributing to any discussion? Has anybody here said that "GDP is the most important indicator"?

ChatGTP 3y ago
I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe, I could go back and find plenty of examples but I have better things to do. Personally I think average Americans have a hard time imaging a world where there is more to life than money. Ultimately whenever I see these "murica" centric posts, I remember them flying in emergency medical supplies from China and everybody being upset about how the worlds greatest super power didn't have enough supplies for their own medical staff. Stay humble.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Given how pervasive money is in everything we do, even just hiking in nature (how much did those hiking boots cost you? Did you get a cheap pair or an expensive pair? How long will they last until you have to buy a new pair?), or just having friends over to chat (their money status has an effect on how they're doing). There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central. Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Without money and a stagnating economy there will be less welfare to go around. I've lost track of how many financially illiterate people told me "I don't care about the economy, as long as we still have great quality of life" who miss the part where that great quality of life is funded by that same economy they don't care about.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Not entirely, of course you need money but you need people who believe in the cause to work towards it and make sacrifices. I work for a NFP, I took a paycut to do it. I'm happier for it. I think a lot of America goes wrong because most people want their cake and to eat it too. Free healthcare? It will require sacrifices in the form of higher taxes.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Let me know when you meet the first people who voluntarily agree with paying higher taxes. Everyone I know in EU wants to pay less taxes, not more, as they don't trust the state with how it has spent their taxes so far (aka on corruption and cronyism). Canadians pay higher taxes than Americans and their social services aren't that much better now that the US's. Why isn't it working for them if higher taxes and not a stronger economy is the solution? Whenever the state says "give me more of your tax money so I can take care of you", check your pockets. To be fair, I'd also agree with more taxes, provided those in power would be held accountable and punished severely for mismanaging it and that they would try to address growing inequality, but as long as they're unaccountable and spend my taxes like drunken sailors giving it to their golf buddies in the private sector while pushing for austerity for the plebs while the rich get richer, I'll do everything I can to pay less taxes to the state so I can defund it of the capability of improper spending, and use that extra money to take care of myself and my loved ones.
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        To be fair, I'd also agree with more taxes, provided those in power would be held accountable and punished severely for mismanaging it, but as long as they're unaccountable and spend my taxes like drunken sailors giving it to their golf buddies in the private sector while pushing for austerity for the plebs, I'll do everything I can to pay less taxes to the state so I can defund it of the capability of improper spending, and use that extra money to take care of myself and my loved ones. You see, that is already happening, just through other means. The political situation isn't really favoring Joe Sixpack, or even software engineers, it's benefiting the very few ultra wealthy. You know how nowhere near enough is being done about climate change? That's because no one in government really cares about the impacts on you or your family. Because the energy companies are happy. Google and Meta stealing your private information without your consent? Nothing will be done about that either because corporations own America. IMO the fact we pay lower tax and are all just thinking it means we're better off by default is the joke. It is the pacifier. I 100% agree with you though, higher tax does not mean things get better, absolutely not. What people have to do is grow brains and participate in democracy and not via Twitter on Instagram but actually doing some work.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  > I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe, I could go back and find plenty of examples but I have better things to do. I'm responding to a (one of the many) cases of people being strangely upset and irrational about a simple fact about the US doing better in this one metric recently. There is no "opposite" about it, I never said it does not happen the other way around, I'm questioning why it is happening this way around in this thread. And again that is making people upset and bringing up other unrelated things, which is quite ironic really. > Personally I think average Americans have a hard time imaging a world where there is more to life than money. Personally I think it's sad that so many "educated and enlightened" people are okay with making vile accusations and generalizations about others they know nothing about. I know a bunch of Americans and almost all are warm, friendly, generous. Some very driven, very few who struck me as being all about money. I feel sad that many have been to feel ashamed of themselves by this kind of casual bullying. > Ultimately whenever I see these "murica" centric posts, I remember them flying in emergency medical supplies from China and everybody being upset about how the worlds greatest super power didn't have enough supplies for their own medical staff. I don't quite understand what you're getting at. You're upset by the fact that the US economy measured by GDP grew much faster than the EU recently, but you take comfort from the fact that China manufactures a lot of things that other countries buy such as medical equipment and there were shortages of various goods during Covid. I don't know what to make of that but I'm sure there's some interesting psychology behind it.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I'm responding to a (one of the many) cases of people being strangely upset and irrational about a simple fact about the US doing better in this one metric recently. There is no "opposite" about it, I never said it does not happen the other way around, I'm questioning why it is happening this way around in this thread. And again that is making people upset and bringing up other unrelated things, which is quite ironic really. If it happens both ways then it doesn't matter why, it's a kind of passive aggressive question then? You know that many people don't like America and it's way of operating, which IMO is about maximizing profits and throwing people under the bus to do so. No great national doesn't offer world class free healthcare, sorry. But that is the challenge of our time and we in the USA have failed. We have also failed, very ,very hard leading the world through climate change, so we're just a bunch of rich people with no leadership strength now. Personally I think it's sad that so many "educated and enlightened" people are okay with making vile accusations and generalizations about others they know nothing about. Regardless of any of your accusations, being that I'm some kind of generalizing monster, there is no place on earth that worships money like the USA. Sorry but that is just how it is. I've never experienced anything quite like it. Money is the religion. That's why we're having a GDP party. I know a bunch of Americans and almost all are warm, friendly, generous. Some very driven, very few who struck me as being all about money. I feel sad that many have been to feel ashamed of themselves by this kind of casual bullying. So do I, but I guess you're also generalizing that most Americans are lovely, because I know many that aren't. Saying this, Americans aren't any nicer per-capita than anywhere else in the world. There are nice people everywhere and there are dicks everywhere. The problem with America is it's politics and the access lobbyists have to politicians. I think Americans are probably too nice and too gullible to see the situation improved. Lobbying is a fairly unique problem in the US which causes things like mass shootings at schools to happen. The NRA makes sure everyone has guns (for example). I don't quite understand what you're getting at. You're upset by the fact that the US economy measured by GDP grew much faster than the EU recently, but you take comfort from the fact that China manufactures a lot of things that other countries buy such as medical equipment and there were shortages of various goods during Covid. I don't know what to make of that but I'm sure there's some interesting psychology behind it. Again, you're making accusations now. I don't take comfort in it, but I am saying it's important to be humble. I think boasting is a major character floor and again, had China decided not to send supplies, America would've been quite screwed. So yeah, let's be humble no matter how big our GDP cock is.
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  > I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe I more often get the impression that it’s the other way around. As if the fact that there is more to life than money somehow justifies the fact that much of Western Europe is now economically permanently stuck in ~2008 due to some very misguided policies..
- lukas099 3y ago
  > I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe It's definitely both ways. Things Americans are snarky about: - Europe starting world wars, America getting pulled in and 'winning' them (taking an outsized view of America's role) - "Everything is so small here" Things Europeans are snarky about: - Not knowing geography or anything about the world outside the U.S. - Tipping - Atrocious public transit - High healthcare costs for poor outcomes
janalsncm 3y ago
The post is ostensibly about GDP growth. However, if you read the comments both here and on Twitter you’ll see that we humans are quick to jump from cold economic facts of GDP into more broad points about economic stagnation. My point is to suggest that maybe top line numbers don’t tell the whole story. Maybe in a society where wealth is hyper-concentrated, the heuristic coupling of GDP growth and social progress breaks down. Flip the US and EU, it makes no difference to me. My point is that GDP is a poor metric for most things we should care about, and maybe we should get off the paperclip maximization train and onto the well-being maximization train.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  > The post is ostensibly about GDP growth. However, if you read the comments both here and on Twitter you’ll see that we humans are quick to jump from cold economic facts of GDP into more broad points about economic stagnation. I can't seem to read the twitter comments but I don't really see that here, at least in top level comments it seems to be all people who are quick to jump from that to making excuses or trying to rationalize why these numbers are "bad". I don't know what would be the problem with talking about economic stagnation though, significant differences in GDP growth between ~comparably advanced economies doesn't seem like a bad starting point for that, does it? I notice you didn't actually reply to such a comment, but even so I don't know why you would bring life expectancy into GDP stagnation either. There's certainly a fairly strong correlation and almost certainly causal relationship, but nobody seems to be confusing GDP with the sole driver of life expectancy or believe that GDP tells "the whole story". So it seems like a weird thing to bring up, you could also bring up wheat production and point out that it isn't fixed to GDP, because it also doesn't tell you that story.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe, I could go back and find plenty of examples but I have better things to do. Personally I think average Americans have a hard time imaging a world where there is more to life than money. Ultimately whenever I see these "murica" centric posts, I remember them flying in emergency medical supplies from China and everybody being upset about how the worlds greatest super power didn't have enough supplies for their own medical staff. Stay humble.

fragmede 3y ago
Given how pervasive money is in everything we do, even just hiking in nature (how much did those hiking boots cost you? Did you get a cheap pair or an expensive pair? How long will they last until you have to buy a new pair?), or just having friends over to chat (their money status has an effect on how they're doing). There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >There's more to life than money, but it's pretty central. Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Without money and a stagnating economy there will be less welfare to go around. I've lost track of how many financially illiterate people told me "I don't care about the economy, as long as we still have great quality of life" who miss the part where that great quality of life is funded by that same economy they don't care about.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    Europeans miss the point that you still need money to fund all those generous social benefits we have. Not entirely, of course you need money but you need people who believe in the cause to work towards it and make sacrifices. I work for a NFP, I took a paycut to do it. I'm happier for it. I think a lot of America goes wrong because most people want their cake and to eat it too. Free healthcare? It will require sacrifices in the form of higher taxes.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Let me know when you meet the first people who voluntarily agree with paying higher taxes. Everyone I know in EU wants to pay less taxes, not more, as they don't trust the state with how it has spent their taxes so far (aka on corruption and cronyism). Canadians pay higher taxes than Americans and their social services aren't that much better now that the US's. Why isn't it working for them if higher taxes and not a stronger economy is the solution? Whenever the state says "give me more of your tax money so I can take care of you", check your pockets. To be fair, I'd also agree with more taxes, provided those in power would be held accountable and punished severely for mismanaging it and that they would try to address growing inequality, but as long as they're unaccountable and spend my taxes like drunken sailors giving it to their golf buddies in the private sector while pushing for austerity for the plebs while the rich get richer, I'll do everything I can to pay less taxes to the state so I can defund it of the capability of improper spending, and use that extra money to take care of myself and my loved ones.
      - ChatGTP 3y ago
        To be fair, I'd also agree with more taxes, provided those in power would be held accountable and punished severely for mismanaging it, but as long as they're unaccountable and spend my taxes like drunken sailors giving it to their golf buddies in the private sector while pushing for austerity for the plebs, I'll do everything I can to pay less taxes to the state so I can defund it of the capability of improper spending, and use that extra money to take care of myself and my loved ones. You see, that is already happening, just through other means. The political situation isn't really favoring Joe Sixpack, or even software engineers, it's benefiting the very few ultra wealthy. You know how nowhere near enough is being done about climate change? That's because no one in government really cares about the impacts on you or your family. Because the energy companies are happy. Google and Meta stealing your private information without your consent? Nothing will be done about that either because corporations own America. IMO the fact we pay lower tax and are all just thinking it means we're better off by default is the joke. It is the pacifier. I 100% agree with you though, higher tax does not mean things get better, absolutely not. What people have to do is grow brains and participate in democracy and not via Twitter on Instagram but actually doing some work.
throwawaylinux 3y ago
> I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe, I could go back and find plenty of examples but I have better things to do. I'm responding to a (one of the many) cases of people being strangely upset and irrational about a simple fact about the US doing better in this one metric recently. There is no "opposite" about it, I never said it does not happen the other way around, I'm questioning why it is happening this way around in this thread. And again that is making people upset and bringing up other unrelated things, which is quite ironic really. > Personally I think average Americans have a hard time imaging a world where there is more to life than money. Personally I think it's sad that so many "educated and enlightened" people are okay with making vile accusations and generalizations about others they know nothing about. I know a bunch of Americans and almost all are warm, friendly, generous. Some very driven, very few who struck me as being all about money. I feel sad that many have been to feel ashamed of themselves by this kind of casual bullying. > Ultimately whenever I see these "murica" centric posts, I remember them flying in emergency medical supplies from China and everybody being upset about how the worlds greatest super power didn't have enough supplies for their own medical staff. I don't quite understand what you're getting at. You're upset by the fact that the US economy measured by GDP grew much faster than the EU recently, but you take comfort from the fact that China manufactures a lot of things that other countries buy such as medical equipment and there were shortages of various goods during Covid. I don't know what to make of that but I'm sure there's some interesting psychology behind it.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I'm responding to a (one of the many) cases of people being strangely upset and irrational about a simple fact about the US doing better in this one metric recently. There is no "opposite" about it, I never said it does not happen the other way around, I'm questioning why it is happening this way around in this thread. And again that is making people upset and bringing up other unrelated things, which is quite ironic really. If it happens both ways then it doesn't matter why, it's a kind of passive aggressive question then? You know that many people don't like America and it's way of operating, which IMO is about maximizing profits and throwing people under the bus to do so. No great national doesn't offer world class free healthcare, sorry. But that is the challenge of our time and we in the USA have failed. We have also failed, very ,very hard leading the world through climate change, so we're just a bunch of rich people with no leadership strength now. Personally I think it's sad that so many "educated and enlightened" people are okay with making vile accusations and generalizations about others they know nothing about. Regardless of any of your accusations, being that I'm some kind of generalizing monster, there is no place on earth that worships money like the USA. Sorry but that is just how it is. I've never experienced anything quite like it. Money is the religion. That's why we're having a GDP party. I know a bunch of Americans and almost all are warm, friendly, generous. Some very driven, very few who struck me as being all about money. I feel sad that many have been to feel ashamed of themselves by this kind of casual bullying. So do I, but I guess you're also generalizing that most Americans are lovely, because I know many that aren't. Saying this, Americans aren't any nicer per-capita than anywhere else in the world. There are nice people everywhere and there are dicks everywhere. The problem with America is it's politics and the access lobbyists have to politicians. I think Americans are probably too nice and too gullible to see the situation improved. Lobbying is a fairly unique problem in the US which causes things like mass shootings at schools to happen. The NRA makes sure everyone has guns (for example). I don't quite understand what you're getting at. You're upset by the fact that the US economy measured by GDP grew much faster than the EU recently, but you take comfort from the fact that China manufactures a lot of things that other countries buy such as medical equipment and there were shortages of various goods during Covid. I don't know what to make of that but I'm sure there's some interesting psychology behind it. Again, you're making accusations now. I don't take comfort in it, but I am saying it's important to be humble. I think boasting is a major character floor and again, had China decided not to send supplies, America would've been quite screwed. So yeah, let's be humble no matter how big our GDP cock is.
ffhhttt 3y ago
> I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe I more often get the impression that it’s the other way around. As if the fact that there is more to life than money somehow justifies the fact that much of Western Europe is now economically permanently stuck in ~2008 due to some very misguided policies..
lukas099 3y ago
> I actually think it's the opposite, I always see Americans getting really snarky about Europe It's definitely both ways. Things Americans are snarky about: - Europe starting world wars, America getting pulled in and 'winning' them (taking an outsized view of America's role) - "Everything is so small here" Things Europeans are snarky about: - Not knowing geography or anything about the world outside the U.S. - Tipping - Atrocious public transit - High healthcare costs for poor outcomes

janalsncm 3y ago

The post is ostensibly about GDP growth. However, if you read the comments both here and on Twitter you’ll see that we humans are quick to jump from cold economic facts of GDP into more broad points about economic stagnation. My point is to suggest that maybe top line numbers don’t tell the whole story. Maybe in a society where wealth is hyper-concentrated, the heuristic coupling of GDP growth and social progress breaks down. Flip the US and EU, it makes no difference to me. My point is that GDP is a poor metric for most things we should care about, and maybe we should get off the paperclip maximization train and onto the well-being maximization train.

throwawaylinux 3y ago
> The post is ostensibly about GDP growth. However, if you read the comments both here and on Twitter you’ll see that we humans are quick to jump from cold economic facts of GDP into more broad points about economic stagnation. I can't seem to read the twitter comments but I don't really see that here, at least in top level comments it seems to be all people who are quick to jump from that to making excuses or trying to rationalize why these numbers are "bad". I don't know what would be the problem with talking about economic stagnation though, significant differences in GDP growth between ~comparably advanced economies doesn't seem like a bad starting point for that, does it? I notice you didn't actually reply to such a comment, but even so I don't know why you would bring life expectancy into GDP stagnation either. There's certainly a fairly strong correlation and almost certainly causal relationship, but nobody seems to be confusing GDP with the sole driver of life expectancy or believe that GDP tells "the whole story". So it seems like a weird thing to bring up, you could also bring up wheat production and point out that it isn't fixed to GDP, because it also doesn't tell you that story.