10 ms·

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

607 points by gps408 15y ago

mmwako 15y ago
Oh my God. This could change my life. One lifelong problem I've got is sleeping. I have great trouble falling asleep, and my sleeping patterns are very uncommon: some days I sleep 12 hours, some 5, but I'm usually very tired because of this. However, I used to think I had a "gift" of being really creative and having my best ideas just before sleep, just waking up, and during insomnia episodes. However, I've discovered that many suffer from this phenomena (anyone here?). This article could explain a lot!
- charlieflowers 15y ago
  I only found out recently (well into my adult life) that I am hyper-sensitive to caffeine. One cup of coffee in the morning will keep me up till 3 am at night. This tricked me into thinking that I'm an extreme night owl, and it kept me from ever getting really good sleep. Now, I've quit caffeinated beverages entirely, and I get tired around 11:30 pm every night, and I sleep fantastically well. I wake up naturally around 9:30 every morning and feel great. All that is to say ... consider caffeine and other "drugs". You might be surprised how much they're affecting you.
  - mmwako 15y ago
    Thanks Charlie! How did you find out that you were hyper-sensitive? In my case, I don't drink colas, but I love that hot coffee in the morning...
    - onemoreact 15y ago
      Ideally, you should keep a sleep journal for 30 days before you try to change anything about your sleep habits. As to the actual experiment don't drink any tea/coffee/colas for 30 days and see how it effects your sleep patterns. PS: And I do mean zero for the full 30 days if you have any caffeine you have to start over.
      - bryanlarsen 15y ago
        Caffeine has really nasty withdrawal symptoms for most people. I highly recommend slowly cutting out caffeine rather than going cold turkey.
      - shrub 15y ago
        This could be a solution for me. Drinking tea is part of the culture of my family, so I started drinking it at a very young age (as soon as I could hold a cup?) with 3/4 milk and 1/4 tea. As I got older, the amount of tea increased until there was no milk left. These days, whoever I visit, it seems I can always count on being offered a cup of tea. When I started having all sorts of issues sleeping at a young age, it just didn't occur to me or anyone that it could be the copious amounts of tea. Doctors ran tests on my blood numerous times and didn't find anything. They asked me all sorts of questions (even if I was pregnant at the tender age of 15, which shocked young innocent me), but caffeine never came up. Strangely, sending me to bed earlier resulted in tossing and turning even longer into the wee hours of the morning. Sleeping pills just resulted in feeling strangely dazed, but still not sleeping. These days I have stopped drinking tea/caffeine after a certain hour in hopes of getting more sleep, but I still drink a cup of coffee in the morning and I still have troubles getting to sleep (takes a couple of hours no matter hour exhausted I feel). Maybe it's time to cut out the caffeine completely.
    - mortenjorck 15y ago
      For me, it was gradual. I had had random bouts of insomnia for awhile, and realized those correlated with days I had caffeine after 4 PM or so. So I cut back to noon, which improved it, then cut back to the morning, which was even better, and then just cut out caffeine entirely. I've never slept better.
  - roqetman 15y ago
    Similar here, but I've found that as long as I don't drink caffeine after 3pm, I sleep well. Any later than that and I wake at 3am or so. Made such a difference when I discovered this... I lost a serious amount of grumpiness.
    - RyanMcGreal 15y ago
      For me it's around noon, but then again I go to bed at 9pm and get up at 4:30.
    - mmwako 15y ago
      Nice to see I'm not alone :) it's impressive to see how different are our sleeping habits. I have to hack myself one of these days.
    - downx3 15y ago
      I must be seriously broken. I can even enjoy a cup of coffee at the bedside and still sleep. Not that I do that often. Falling asleep for me is easy. I pretty much always wake up about four hours later. Then sometimes I remain wide awake for another few hours. After which I'm ready for sleep again. The second bout is pretty glorious. This does mean however, that I need to pretty much put 11 hours aside each night, if I want to play to my bodily demands. My other half rather annoyingly insists everyone should wake when they rise. Which just isn't good for my mental health - or my programming for that matter!
      - adavies42 15y ago
        i'm basically immune to caffeine, afaict. i frequently come home late, drink a diet coke or whatever, and head straight to bed. i've gone back and forth between drinking a six pack of diet mountain dew a day and nothing and never noticed a difference. i can slam two bottles of Bawls (160mg) or eat 3 Fooshes (http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/candy/6e27 http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/candy/6e27, >300mg total) and still take (and want) a nap. if i gave myself anything close the amount of sleep i appear to be capable of taking, i'd never be up to get anything done....
  - dan00 15y ago
    For me it's TV. Especially bad for me is watching before going to bed. TV keeps me awake, stimulates me. After watching I've problems falling asleep, and the sleep itself isn't recreative. I don't feel really awake after such a night.
- pilsetnieks 15y ago
  I cannot say anything about the sleeping patterns but are you sure that those creative bursts aren't happening just because it is quiet, no distractions, etc.?
  - mmwako 15y ago
    Don't think so, because these come during the day in the most unexpected moments (with or without distraction). My theory is that all creativity comes from the subconscious mind, and during nighttime it's the subconscious that takes over. Just before sleeping, a gate opens where rational consciousness and unconsciousness "coexist" and that's when new ideas can be retained. It's like that guy that tried near-death experiences so he could write good ideas down.
  - downx3 15y ago
    It's pretty blissful when the sound of the traffic evaporates. Always the best time for coding for me.
- Florin_Andrei 15y ago
  You're definitely not alone. Extraordinary insight and creativity, rich, vivid, inspired and out-of-the-box thinking, are typical for "twilight" states, when you're floating between waking state and sleep; not fully awaken to the outside world, but not fully unconscious either. The only problem is replicating and maintaining these states. It is sometimes possible to remain fully aware in what is essentially a full-on dream state. This is the best of both worlds, combining the rationality and critical thinking of the waking state, with the unbound creativity of the dream. It's like opening up the firehose of new ideas, while remaining in control. I am fairly certain that at least some of the unusual claims made by people who practice meditation a lot (such as having access to a higher "wisdom", etc.) are based on gaining a measure of control over these states. For this reason, I think it's worth exploring some of the traditional meditation systems, seen as empirical "brain hacking" techniques. I'd love to see more research done in this field; some of Sam Harris' work is relevant.
  - mmwako 15y ago
    Thanks for the insight. As a matter of fact, I do meditate :) From my experience (nothing scientific), to replicate these states, what you need is to shut down your rational mind. You see, everyone has in there mind a small voice going "hey, I like this lamp" or "mmm I forgot to do something". This voice is your rational, conscious part of your "self". However, it's not your entire "self". Meditation aims at quieting this "voice" (it's really hard, and I'm not there yet). Once its quiet, you've got "space" for actual inspiration to come in, and once this happens it's amazing, and can happen in many levels. That's why meditation is a mystical experience. Mystical means that it is not possible to communicate via ideas, just by personal experience. If you get good at it you can actually control you emotional states and LISTEN to them, bringing you a lot of wellbeing in many ways. (ok, I'm waaay off topic, sorry).
    - lobotryas 15y ago
      That sounds pretty interesting. Any suggestion on books or ofher resources for peope new to meditation? How did you get started with meditation?
- cop359 15y ago
  "I had a "gift" of being really creative and having my best ideas just before sleep, just waking up, and during insomnia episodes." This is called Hypnogogia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogia The only way I can definitely replicate it is to stay up all night. The next day I will feel a lot more creative, but at the same time a lot less coordinated, frequently tired and not able to concentrate on doing something complicated. Also it's super easy to forget things, so you need to write down all your ideas. I dunno if you often for instance stay up very very late with friends talking about things, but I think there is a similar effect at some point.
  - kylebrown 15y ago
    I remember reading about a famous inventor (can't remember who, sorry) who purposefully induced this state by holding something in his hand which would make a noise when let go. While falling asleep, the object (say, a metal ball) would drop (into say, a metal bowl), making enough noise to wake him up just as he was falling asleep. If an idea came he would write it down, if not he would repeat the process.
    - epikur 15y ago
      Salvador Dali: http://www.arthurmag.com/2010/06/25/diy-magic-dropping-the-spoon-by-anthony-alvarado/ http://www.arthurmag.com/2010/06/25/diy-magic-dropping-the-s... The comments on that mention Thomas Edison also doing something similar.
- kellishaver 15y ago
  This happens to me, too, but I'd gladly trade all the good ideas in the world for a decent amount of sleep! Starting from about age 12, but definitely getting worse as I get older, sleep is something I just can't seem to get right, no matter how I approach it. I've tried getting eight hours of sleep, and it doesn't work. I do pretty good on six hours, but only for a while. Over the course of a few weeks, six becomes four, which becomes three, which is then two, and suddenly it's 3 days later and I'm still awake. When it gets to the point that I find myself getting less than four hours of sleep a night, the only way I can force my body to sleep more, despite being very physically tired, is with medication. Of course, most sleep aids can't be taken for long periods of time, so that only helps for a short while. Sometimes I don't get tired until 4am, and other times it's all I can do to stay awake at 6pm, regardless of whether I got up at 6:30 in the morning, or noon. I've tried enforcing a rigid schedule, meditation, exercise, various sleep aids, antidepressants (Pazil, Zoloft), just "going with it", and as of late, melatonin supplements at the recommendation of my doctor. They helped for a few weeks, but then that, too, stopped being effective. The closest I get to a normal sleep schedule is that about half the time, I can go to sleep around 4am and get up at 10am - but that's not really a very practical solution and there are 3-4 days a week where it's just not at all possible from a logistics standpoint.
af3 15y ago
now corporations want you to work more than 9 hours per day.
- amalag 15y ago
  Especially in Asian countries it is considered normal that your workplace demands more than 8 hours. Becoming like that in the USA as well for some.
  - Chrono 15y ago
    In Europe, or at least Nothern Europe, it feels like working days are actually becoming shorter. I seem to recall 37.5hrs/w being standard for most office workers, at least in Sweden. Will have a look and see if I can find a source later!
fredley 15y ago
This is great, I've always worried about being or feeling awake for long periods at night. What doesn't seem clear though is whether I should be setting aside 10 hours a night for sleep (two 4 hour cycles + 2 waking hours in between)
andyjohnson0 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep has some interesting links
mdkess 15y ago
For a long time I've wanted to cut myself off and figure out a natural sleep cycle. Normally (for better or for worse), I sleep 5-6 hours a night during the week, then get 8-9 on the weekends, but that's definitely shaped to the work week. Also, maybe interesting - two 4 hour sleep cycle with a couple hours between is what happens naturally to me after a night of too much drinking. I wonder if there's some reason for that.
- RobAtticus 15y ago
  I believe I've read that all the alcohol processing eventually makes your blood sugar drop very low which is when you wake up (if you're like me, around 6-7am after going to bed at 3). Then of course, you're not very rested from little sleep (and not very high quality sleep) so you probably go back down for a few more hours.
  - hessenwolf 15y ago
    Following Carnival last night, I suffered this horribly. Thanks for the explanation.
  - downx3 15y ago
    I thought that was common knowledge - that with drinking - you have in general poorer sleep. It's rather insidious.
  - jennyjitters 15y ago
    Maybe that could explain why the segmented sleep pattern was considered normal way back when. I don't imagine there was a whole lot for people to do in the evenings besides drink =)
conradfr 15y ago
Some recent studies showed that an healthy night seems to be no more than 7 hours. Segmented sleep is interesting but I don't think a majority of people could balance that with family and work.
- RyanMcGreal 15y ago
  It rather seems that family and work need to be adjusted to balance them with our natural sleeping rhythm.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Assuming that this is in fact out natural sleeping rhythm.
MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
I had 10 hours last night. 8 til 6
ericdykstra 15y ago
It would have been nice if there were some actionable items. What are the best segments? Is there something wrong if I can sleep 8 hours without trouble? Does anyone have links to more research, perhaps with something a little more actionable of a conclusion?
- sodiumphosphate 15y ago
  The article suggests that it's natural to take two four hour sleep sessions, intermediated by a one to two hour break. I think that this bears out to what many of us are experiencing, and the idea to consider is simply to stop worrying about it and embrace it. The 'second sleep' is likely getting cut short, because we are not budgeting for the break. I consistently tend to find myself daydreaming during this part of the night, anxious (as the article notes) about not sleeping. So personally, I'm just going to continue doing this without worry, and budget time for it. Duh, right? Why didn't I think of that before? It makes perfect sense now after reading the article. I may even go wild and actually get up and do things for an hour or two every night, you know, for science. Many thanks to the poster.
Shank 15y ago
I've kept a sleep pattern of 4-5 hours by accident, and I don't seem to function any less efficiently than when I sleep 8 or more hours. I do end up taking a nap on occasion, but that's still 6-7 hours, not 8.
metatronscube 15y ago
I have never slept for 8hrs, not even close. I sometimes wonder how people can sleep for that long and what their jobs and life's must be like. After 5-7hrs I usually wake up feeling totally refreshed and ready to go (even better after my first coffee ;))
- pavelkaroukin 15y ago
  You are lucky :) Some math - 1 hour a day less sleep than "normal" people give you: 1 hr * 365 days / 24 hours in day ~ 15 days. And these are 24hours day. What it really should be: 1 hr * 365 days / (24 hours in day - 6 hours you sleep on average) ~ 21 days. Which is, well, in office terms, work month :) congrats, you got 1/12 life for free :)
  - kamaal 15y ago
    I don't think sleep can be counted out of life. Dreams are the most beautiful things to ever happen to humans. I have always lived two lives one in dreams and one while am awake. And some experiences that I've had dreaming just can't be had while I'm awake.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
Just get rid of your alarm clock, and wake up when your body tells you to.
- sodiumphosphate 15y ago
  Sure, that's the best way, but most people cannot do it; they risk being late for work, or in my case, getting the kids to school. (Actually, to be honest, my only risk is in not having as much time as I'd like before the kids wake up.) A good second choice seems to be using something like 'Sleep Cycle' for iPhone, or one of these fancy new wristband accelerometer gizmos. I've had good success with Sleep Cycle, myself.
  - hornbaker 15y ago
    > I've had good success with Sleep Cycle, myself. I'm really liking the Sleep Cycle app, too. Works great, simple, best 99 cents I've spent. Prior to it, I had the $69 WakeMate wristband, but never warmed up to it – it was uncomfortable, and a pain to set and keep charged.
- joering2 15y ago
  hm, sorry to ask, but: are you employed? most folks I know, including me, have serious problems with sleep. it seems like we tap into each corner of human body and understand less or more how it works, but yet there is no real science behind how sleep works and how much of it we need. Heck, afaik scientists still argue why we need sleep at all and whats the main reasoning behind it. But not to brag too much: sometimes it happens to me that I sleep less hours and am more refreshed than sleeping longer, or even legit 7 or 8. I guess I just hit the right spot at the right time and REM phases worked out. If someone comes up with a device that can help you sleep not too long not to short so you always wake up fresh, I think he/she will nail a billion dollar idea!
  - recursive 15y ago
    I'm employed. I don't use alarms. I just go to bed early enough so that I'll naturally want to wake up in time for work.
waiwai933 15y ago
Not that I know anything about this, but isn't it possible that having this segmented sleep could possibly be bad for you? Just because our ancestors slept as such doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you, does it? (That's not to say it couldn't be good, just that I don't understand why the article seems to imply that it necessarily must be good.)
agentultra 15y ago
Sleep is weird. If I wake up in the middle of the night and go back to sleep... I feel like ass the next day. If I get less than eight hours I'm pretty tired the next day. But science says that shouldn't happen!? Not enough evidence to suggest that there's any kind of regularity to how humans "should" sleep yet.
- pavelkaroukin 15y ago
  It is even more weird than that. From my and some friend's experience: if you sleep more then 9 hours straight, instead of usual 6-8 (this happens on weekends usually), I feel really terrible in the morning - not being able to get out of bed, but in the same time not being able to sleep. Finally when I get out of bed - I feel really trashed for next several hours. So it is not just less than 8 hours makes things worse, same applies to more then 8 hours. So it is either I have to sleep 6-8 hours only, or I have adapted to this schedule so well, that anything else makes me feel terrible. On the other hand, I have handful examples of me traveling with few flight changes, timezones changes, more than 30 hours in flights/airports, and after getting to my destination I spent full 16 hours day working or meeting with friends just fine. May be a little dizzy. And after consequent 8 hours sleep night - feel great next day. This suggest, that it (8 hours sleep requirement) is more than just a something "hardwired" in to human's body... Yes, sleep is weird.
  - simon 15y ago
    This is why, I find that getting up at the same time on the weekend as I do during the work week actually helps keep my sleep patterns somewhat regular. So, although the idea of an occasional Saturday morning sleep-in sounds good, in practic, I'm better off getting up at my usual 4:45am every day and supplementing with a short nap after lunch if necessary.
  - just-a-rascal 15y ago
    Often when you wake up after sleeping longer than usual (say more than 9 hours) you feel tired because of dehydration. Your body loses a fair bit of water while you sleep, so that might be reason you feel bad after a lie-in.
Xurinos 15y ago
There is only one study in this article, and it involves how a group of people adapted to a 14-hour sleep pattern. Other than that, there are no studies of importance here, nothing that confirms concretely that this kind of segmented sleep is effective for humans. It is based on historical hearsay but cannot make a prescriptive judgment. The evidence purely anecdotal. Please be careful in reading things like this that you do not immediately form a blind belief or justification.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  Also, don't Spanish people and sailors sleep in segmented blocks? Not exactly newsworthy, then.
  - gk1 15y ago
    Sailors' sleep patterns are mostly dictated by their watch schedule. Different ships have different schedules (eg, three eight-hour shifts, or four six-hour shifts, etc) and basically you try to get sleep whenever possible. I sailed on a ship that had six four-hour watches with three watch groups. That meant that one group would stand two 4-hour watches per 24-hour period (eg, 4am-8am then 4pm-8pm). With less than eight hours between watches, you had no choice but to sleep in two different blocks each day. The effects of such a schedule and standing watch in a windowless engine room deep in the hull of the ship are quite interesting. For example, people (myself included) would completely forget whether it is PM or AM. If you occasionally go outside--rather than straight from the engine room to your bunk--you never knew whether to expect it to be light or dark out. I often went out expecting to reminisce under the star-laden sky, only to find out it's broad daylight out.
  - JeremyBanks 15y ago
    I don't see how your post could be "also" to the parent post: It's saying to be skeptical of the claims due to lack of evidence, while your post contrarily implies that this is already established knowledge.
    - hencq 15y ago
chollida1 15y ago
My brother in law is a "sleep scientist" at UPenn. His recommendation is that sleep cycles typically happen in 4 hour intervals so it's best to sleep 4 or 8 hours a night. Getting up int he middle of a sleep cycle is often as bad as getting less than 4 hours of sleep. And going to bed drunk is the worst for your sleep cycle.
- kahawe 15y ago
  > 4 hour intervals What about those 90 minute cycles that are also commonly cited in popular sleep-advice? Those wouldn't work into a 4hour schedule.
  - chollida1 15y ago
    Honestly i don't know what specifically you are referring to. Are you referring to those sleep cycles where you have 4 90 minute naps a day instead of sleeping once at night? I'm not the subject matter expert, so I don't want to speak authoritatively:)
    - DrJokepu 15y ago
      I believe the grandparent was referring to the same phenomenon described in the relevant Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Sleep_stages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Sleep_stages
    - technel 15y ago
      He's talking about REM cycles, which last 90 minutes. Generally people recommend that you sleep for an amount of time that is a multiple of 90 minutes so that you do not disrupt one of these cycles.
    - kahawe 15y ago
      I was talking about whatever contemporarily popular science apps and websites like http://sleepyti.me/ http://sleepyti.me/ are buying into.
b3b0p 15y ago
According to my Bodymedia Fit, I almost never ever get a true 8 hours or more of sleep. Sure, I lay down at 10 PM or so and get up at 6 AM or later, but if this little device is as accurate as they claim it really opened my eyes that I was never getting 8 hours, when I thought I actually was. It says normally I get between 6 and 7 hours. Edit: I'm curious what the recommended amount of sleep, or if it really is an individual thing per 24 hour or so period.
kakaroto_BR 15y ago
I'm always tired and sleepy, doesn't matter how many hours I sleep. Taking pills to sleep make me fill dizzy all day long :(
dkarl 15y ago
I experience two sleeps sometimes when I'm not alone or when I drink a lot. If I'm alone, I usually read for an hour, and if I'm not alone, reading is the second choice. I always go back to sleep easily and get my full allotment. Until I read this article, it never occurred to me that I might be able to have that experience every night. Honestly, it sounds wonderful; sign me up to be in the vanguard. Now if only I could figure out how to make it happen when I'm alone and not drunk!
VonLipwig 15y ago
I am really into 'do what works for you'. You may find that that sleeping in two 4 hour blocks changes your life. You feel alive! Alternatively you may find yourself more tired. Personally I like sleeping 8-9 hours a night. I find myself fairly alert a few minutes after I wake up and I can start my day. It certainly doesn't feel 'unnatural' to me. I am also a big fan of sleeping when other people sleep so I can enjoy time with friends and family. Unusual sleep patterns typically mean missing out on some of this time.
- jfoldi 15y ago
  You don't feel like you over slept after 9 hours of sleep? Either way I have to agree with doing what works for you. I always made an attempt to sleep a full 8 hours and failed. I get by on 4-5 hours of sleep a night and feel fine!
  - ramLlama 15y ago
    My sleep patterns are a lot like the parent commenter. I usually sleep about 7 to 8 hours, but occasionally sleep 9 or so. Do I feel like I've overslept? Sure in that I've "lost" an hour or two that I could have used. But my body doesn't feel like it's overslept. When it does, it tells me. With a half day of headaches.
  - nostrademons 15y ago
    I find my acceptable waking points occur in 1.5 hour sleep cycles, and how many I need depends on how mentally taxing the stuff I'm working on is. For ordinary work, stuff I know how to do fairly well already, I need 8 hours. If I'm learning something new or putting in long hours that require concentration, I'll need 9.5 hours. If I'm thrown into a completely new situation - say, I need to decide the architecture of my startup and learn 3-4 new frameworks all at once, or I've just moved cross-country and started a new job - I'll need 11 hours. I can also function on 6.5 hours but feel pretty crummy, and there's a noticeable performance penalty for anything that requires concentration (math, computer programming, etc). On 4 hours of sleep, I'm a zombie - I do okay with everyday tasks and social interaction (with people I know), but can't really learn anything new and retain it. Curiously, I feel better on 4 hours of sleep than on 6.5, 9.5, or 11 - I'm more alive and less groggy, I just notice that my performance on external measures declines. I recall in the 2010 there were a bunch of athletes that all said the secret to their success - besides training hard - was getting 9 hours of sleep at night. IIRC both Sasha Cohen and Shaun White mentioned it. I think I'd also read brain research that REM sleep (which tends to be back-loaded towards the end of the night) is when your brain converts experiences from that day from short-term memory into long-term skillsets. That'd be consistent with my experience that more mentally demanding tasks require more sleep, and the experience of those Olympic athletes, and that I don't really suffer a short-term penalty from lack of sleep, it's more a long-term problem.
username3 15y ago
http://sleepyti.me/ http://sleepyti.me/
felipebueno 15y ago
Really? I think this is BS... I don't care about statistics or a 1595 painting or whatever. What I know is if I sleep less than seven hours I feel like crap during the day.
wisty 15y ago
Isn't this the proverbial midnight? You went to sleep for about four hours, then woke to have a midnight snack.
- prodigal_erik 15y ago
  Makes me wonder whether we're now (mostly) sleeping through midnight because eating more carbs acclimates us to extremes of blood sugar and insulin levels, letting the midnight food craving pass unnoticed.
etrain 15y ago
Google ngram explorer has the term 'first sleep' peaking in use in English Language circa 1870, before declining ~80% to present day. http://bit.ly/zt8AfD http://bit.ly/zt8AfD Tough to say if this was a 19th century phenomenon or was persistent through history based on the structure of their corpus.
- achille 15y ago
  It does not seem to be relevant, as it seems to track along with the general use of the word 'sleep' http://i.imgur.com/4AtC1.png http://i.imgur.com/4AtC1.png
bufo 15y ago
A great page about sleep cycles is this one http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm
- kylebrown 15y ago
  Hah, the Uberman's sleep schedule (six 20 minuted sessions totaling two hours of sleep per day). I remember trying that for a few days after seeing the kuro5hin article way back when. Supposed to take two weeks to adjust, but it was so painful after a few days that I lost faith and feared I getting caught in a hoax.
- deleted 15y ago
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samTeacup 15y ago
I have this weird sleep pattern, where I sleep from around 5pm-7pm or 7.30pm without an alarm clock, I am sleeping very deeply, always dreaming and really hard to wake me up (I don't notice the phone ringing right next to me) and then I'm sleeping from 1am to 6am, where I usually don't remember dreaming and where I wake up very easily
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jsherry 15y ago
"In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month." 'Plunging' people into 14 hours of darkness per day? Does this sound like a scientifically sound way to determine the natural sleeping patterns of humans?
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  Subtract artificial light, and how long would you be "plunged" into darkness every night this time of year at your latitude? Enforcing prehistoric lighting conditions at night and observing the resulting sleep pattern seems like a decent of finding someone's "natural" sleep pattern to me...
clux 15y ago
The guy who did this study spent 20 years. He found 500 'references to segmented sleep'. One of which being a painting depicting people not sleeping and sleeping simultaneously. That's less than one reference every 2 weeks. Either that guy had the most relaxing job in the world, or it is genuinely difficult to find such references. Assuming the latter to give the researcher the benefit of the doubt here; how deep do you have to look before you start to think that maybe this isn't actually that common after all? Also, how the bbc title reflects this study is beyond me.
mchafkin 15y ago
The New York Times took on this topic a few years back in a very good article that argued that the whole idea of the 8-hour sleep was invented by the mattress industry (and other purveyors of sleep products), and that humans don't need anywhere near 8 hours of continuous sleep. Ironically, all of the industry's marketing makes people anxious about getting enough sleep--and makes it harder for them to get to sleep (thus propagating the need for more expensive mattresses and pillows.) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18sleep-t.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18sleep-t.html?pa...
- preetkimausam 15y ago
  Western consumerism is going to change human lives for bad.
  - freehunter 15y ago
    Then again, it's already changed human lives for the better as well. You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have... the facts of life.
kylek 15y ago
Interesting. Some of the lucid dreaming techniques try to capitalize on the split sleep schedule by taking melatonin before the first segment(induces a REM-less, deep sleep for the most part) and other supplements (vitamin B6, etc) before the second segment, resulting in a longer, more vivid dreaming session.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
While we are on the subject of sleep, does anyone here experience sleep paralysis?
will_lam 15y ago
This would be an interesting opportunity for Zeo or Fitbit to chime in on this if they were to mine their data, anonymize it and publish something about their users sleep patterns.
- ricardobeat 15y ago
  There are a few mobile sleep timer apps that could also contribute data.
ericmoritz 15y ago
I am going to try for a week or two. Having nearly 12 hours dedicated to work, I only have 4 exhausted hours in the evenings for eating dinner, spending time with my wife, kids and myself. If my wife and I split our sleep cycle into two 4 hour periods we can better spend my four hours of free time. The waking period between my commute and first sleep could be spend eating dinner, playing with the kids, and exercise. After my first sleep I can spend time with my wife, and study with a rested mind. Theoretically it seems like a good idea. We'll see how I cope after a week or two of trying.
nazgulnarsil 15y ago
I seem to operate best on a 6 hour block and a 3 hour block. The problem is that doing this my body wants to have a total cycle time around 26 hours.
ry0ohki 15y ago
So if one wanted to try getting into this cycle, do you set an alarm after 4 hours or if you wake up at all naturally in the night, stay up?
grey 15y ago
Has anyone ever read http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm or put it through any verification? It looks good but I'm no biologist, I've used it as my basis for years to avoid polyphasic schedules and embrace naps and biphasic sleep when my life allows for it.
mhartl 15y ago
There's a Zen saying relevant to the article (and to much of the discussion here). Rather than wringing your hands over "optimal sleep", I suggest trying it out. If your schedule allows, it can work wonders: When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep.
donniezazen 15y ago
My sleep is a lot more deep when I regularly sleep around 7 hours. Anything less or over makes me restless. I think I am going to try this. If I get up in middle of night, I will work for an hour or two and when I feel sleepy, I will go to bed.
jmsduran 15y ago
Interesting article. I usually sleep from 7pm - 10pm, wake up and do stuff (like read HN), then sleep again from 3am - 8am, with just enough time to get ready for work in the morning. Not too long ago I suffered from minor insomnia and lucid dreaming. It was awful, to the point where I started to dread bedtime. For me, my diet at the time (fatty foods + sugar + caffeine + alcohol) had a lot to do with it, so once I committed to a healthy diet, my body settled back into a consistent sleep cycle. I guess it's really what works for you.
xfhai 15y ago
There is some problem with the title of the article. It could also mean that you dont need 8 hours of sleep. Other point is the need for sleep varies with age. Babies sleep for very long time like 14 hours; old people need only 5 to 6 hours of sleep. The 8 hour sleep is for youth between 25 and 40 i think. Otherwise, very original point, I have never thought sleeping in 4-hour chunks was natural.
jeffwhelpley 15y ago
I totally do two 4 hour segments of sleep like they talk about, except that it is over a 48 hour period.

607 points by gps408 15y ago

Oh my God. This could change my life. One lifelong problem I've got is sleeping. I have great trouble falling asleep, and my sleeping patterns are very uncommon: some days I sleep 12 hours, some 5, but I'm usually very tired because of this. However, I used to think I had a "gift" of being really creative and having my best ideas just before sleep, just waking up, and during insomnia episodes. However, I've discovered that many suffer from this phenomena (anyone here?). This article could explain a lot!

charlieflowers 15y ago
I only found out recently (well into my adult life) that I am hyper-sensitive to caffeine. One cup of coffee in the morning will keep me up till 3 am at night. This tricked me into thinking that I'm an extreme night owl, and it kept me from ever getting really good sleep. Now, I've quit caffeinated beverages entirely, and I get tired around 11:30 pm every night, and I sleep fantastically well. I wake up naturally around 9:30 every morning and feel great. All that is to say ... consider caffeine and other "drugs". You might be surprised how much they're affecting you.
- mmwako 15y ago
  Thanks Charlie! How did you find out that you were hyper-sensitive? In my case, I don't drink colas, but I love that hot coffee in the morning...
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    Ideally, you should keep a sleep journal for 30 days before you try to change anything about your sleep habits. As to the actual experiment don't drink any tea/coffee/colas for 30 days and see how it effects your sleep patterns. PS: And I do mean zero for the full 30 days if you have any caffeine you have to start over.
    - bryanlarsen 15y ago
      Caffeine has really nasty withdrawal symptoms for most people. I highly recommend slowly cutting out caffeine rather than going cold turkey.
    - shrub 15y ago
      This could be a solution for me. Drinking tea is part of the culture of my family, so I started drinking it at a very young age (as soon as I could hold a cup?) with 3/4 milk and 1/4 tea. As I got older, the amount of tea increased until there was no milk left. These days, whoever I visit, it seems I can always count on being offered a cup of tea. When I started having all sorts of issues sleeping at a young age, it just didn't occur to me or anyone that it could be the copious amounts of tea. Doctors ran tests on my blood numerous times and didn't find anything. They asked me all sorts of questions (even if I was pregnant at the tender age of 15, which shocked young innocent me), but caffeine never came up. Strangely, sending me to bed earlier resulted in tossing and turning even longer into the wee hours of the morning. Sleeping pills just resulted in feeling strangely dazed, but still not sleeping. These days I have stopped drinking tea/caffeine after a certain hour in hopes of getting more sleep, but I still drink a cup of coffee in the morning and I still have troubles getting to sleep (takes a couple of hours no matter hour exhausted I feel). Maybe it's time to cut out the caffeine completely.
  - mortenjorck 15y ago
    For me, it was gradual. I had had random bouts of insomnia for awhile, and realized those correlated with days I had caffeine after 4 PM or so. So I cut back to noon, which improved it, then cut back to the morning, which was even better, and then just cut out caffeine entirely. I've never slept better.
- roqetman 15y ago
  Similar here, but I've found that as long as I don't drink caffeine after 3pm, I sleep well. Any later than that and I wake at 3am or so. Made such a difference when I discovered this... I lost a serious amount of grumpiness.
  - RyanMcGreal 15y ago
    For me it's around noon, but then again I go to bed at 9pm and get up at 4:30.
  - mmwako 15y ago
    Nice to see I'm not alone :) it's impressive to see how different are our sleeping habits. I have to hack myself one of these days.
  - downx3 15y ago
    I must be seriously broken. I can even enjoy a cup of coffee at the bedside and still sleep. Not that I do that often. Falling asleep for me is easy. I pretty much always wake up about four hours later. Then sometimes I remain wide awake for another few hours. After which I'm ready for sleep again. The second bout is pretty glorious. This does mean however, that I need to pretty much put 11 hours aside each night, if I want to play to my bodily demands. My other half rather annoyingly insists everyone should wake when they rise. Which just isn't good for my mental health - or my programming for that matter!
    - adavies42 15y ago
      i'm basically immune to caffeine, afaict. i frequently come home late, drink a diet coke or whatever, and head straight to bed. i've gone back and forth between drinking a six pack of diet mountain dew a day and nothing and never noticed a difference. i can slam two bottles of Bawls (160mg) or eat 3 Fooshes (http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/candy/6e27 http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/candy/6e27, >300mg total) and still take (and want) a nap. if i gave myself anything close the amount of sleep i appear to be capable of taking, i'd never be up to get anything done....
- dan00 15y ago
  For me it's TV. Especially bad for me is watching before going to bed. TV keeps me awake, stimulates me. After watching I've problems falling asleep, and the sleep itself isn't recreative. I don't feel really awake after such a night.
pilsetnieks 15y ago
I cannot say anything about the sleeping patterns but are you sure that those creative bursts aren't happening just because it is quiet, no distractions, etc.?
- mmwako 15y ago
  Don't think so, because these come during the day in the most unexpected moments (with or without distraction). My theory is that all creativity comes from the subconscious mind, and during nighttime it's the subconscious that takes over. Just before sleeping, a gate opens where rational consciousness and unconsciousness "coexist" and that's when new ideas can be retained. It's like that guy that tried near-death experiences so he could write good ideas down.
- downx3 15y ago
  It's pretty blissful when the sound of the traffic evaporates. Always the best time for coding for me.
Florin_Andrei 15y ago
You're definitely not alone. Extraordinary insight and creativity, rich, vivid, inspired and out-of-the-box thinking, are typical for "twilight" states, when you're floating between waking state and sleep; not fully awaken to the outside world, but not fully unconscious either. The only problem is replicating and maintaining these states. It is sometimes possible to remain fully aware in what is essentially a full-on dream state. This is the best of both worlds, combining the rationality and critical thinking of the waking state, with the unbound creativity of the dream. It's like opening up the firehose of new ideas, while remaining in control. I am fairly certain that at least some of the unusual claims made by people who practice meditation a lot (such as having access to a higher "wisdom", etc.) are based on gaining a measure of control over these states. For this reason, I think it's worth exploring some of the traditional meditation systems, seen as empirical "brain hacking" techniques. I'd love to see more research done in this field; some of Sam Harris' work is relevant.
- mmwako 15y ago
  Thanks for the insight. As a matter of fact, I do meditate :) From my experience (nothing scientific), to replicate these states, what you need is to shut down your rational mind. You see, everyone has in there mind a small voice going "hey, I like this lamp" or "mmm I forgot to do something". This voice is your rational, conscious part of your "self". However, it's not your entire "self". Meditation aims at quieting this "voice" (it's really hard, and I'm not there yet). Once its quiet, you've got "space" for actual inspiration to come in, and once this happens it's amazing, and can happen in many levels. That's why meditation is a mystical experience. Mystical means that it is not possible to communicate via ideas, just by personal experience. If you get good at it you can actually control you emotional states and LISTEN to them, bringing you a lot of wellbeing in many ways. (ok, I'm waaay off topic, sorry).
  - lobotryas 15y ago
    That sounds pretty interesting. Any suggestion on books or ofher resources for peope new to meditation? How did you get started with meditation?
cop359 15y ago
"I had a "gift" of being really creative and having my best ideas just before sleep, just waking up, and during insomnia episodes." This is called Hypnogogia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogia The only way I can definitely replicate it is to stay up all night. The next day I will feel a lot more creative, but at the same time a lot less coordinated, frequently tired and not able to concentrate on doing something complicated. Also it's super easy to forget things, so you need to write down all your ideas. I dunno if you often for instance stay up very very late with friends talking about things, but I think there is a similar effect at some point.
- kylebrown 15y ago
  I remember reading about a famous inventor (can't remember who, sorry) who purposefully induced this state by holding something in his hand which would make a noise when let go. While falling asleep, the object (say, a metal ball) would drop (into say, a metal bowl), making enough noise to wake him up just as he was falling asleep. If an idea came he would write it down, if not he would repeat the process.
  - epikur 15y ago
    Salvador Dali: http://www.arthurmag.com/2010/06/25/diy-magic-dropping-the-spoon-by-anthony-alvarado/ http://www.arthurmag.com/2010/06/25/diy-magic-dropping-the-s... The comments on that mention Thomas Edison also doing something similar.
kellishaver 15y ago
This happens to me, too, but I'd gladly trade all the good ideas in the world for a decent amount of sleep! Starting from about age 12, but definitely getting worse as I get older, sleep is something I just can't seem to get right, no matter how I approach it. I've tried getting eight hours of sleep, and it doesn't work. I do pretty good on six hours, but only for a while. Over the course of a few weeks, six becomes four, which becomes three, which is then two, and suddenly it's 3 days later and I'm still awake. When it gets to the point that I find myself getting less than four hours of sleep a night, the only way I can force my body to sleep more, despite being very physically tired, is with medication. Of course, most sleep aids can't be taken for long periods of time, so that only helps for a short while. Sometimes I don't get tired until 4am, and other times it's all I can do to stay awake at 6pm, regardless of whether I got up at 6:30 in the morning, or noon. I've tried enforcing a rigid schedule, meditation, exercise, various sleep aids, antidepressants (Pazil, Zoloft), just "going with it", and as of late, melatonin supplements at the recommendation of my doctor. They helped for a few weeks, but then that, too, stopped being effective. The closest I get to a normal sleep schedule is that about half the time, I can go to sleep around 4am and get up at 10am - but that's not really a very practical solution and there are 3-4 days a week where it's just not at all possible from a logistics standpoint.

af3 15y ago

now corporations want you to work more than 9 hours per day.

amalag 15y ago
Especially in Asian countries it is considered normal that your workplace demands more than 8 hours. Becoming like that in the USA as well for some.
- Chrono 15y ago
  In Europe, or at least Nothern Europe, it feels like working days are actually becoming shorter. I seem to recall 37.5hrs/w being standard for most office workers, at least in Sweden. Will have a look and see if I can find a source later!

fredley 15y ago

This is great, I've always worried about being or feeling awake for long periods at night. What doesn't seem clear though is whether I should be setting aside 10 hours a night for sleep (two 4 hour cycles + 2 waking hours in between)

andyjohnson0 15y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep has some interesting links

mdkess 15y ago

For a long time I've wanted to cut myself off and figure out a natural sleep cycle. Normally (for better or for worse), I sleep 5-6 hours a night during the week, then get 8-9 on the weekends, but that's definitely shaped to the work week. Also, maybe interesting - two 4 hour sleep cycle with a couple hours between is what happens naturally to me after a night of too much drinking. I wonder if there's some reason for that.

RobAtticus 15y ago
I believe I've read that all the alcohol processing eventually makes your blood sugar drop very low which is when you wake up (if you're like me, around 6-7am after going to bed at 3). Then of course, you're not very rested from little sleep (and not very high quality sleep) so you probably go back down for a few more hours.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  Following Carnival last night, I suffered this horribly. Thanks for the explanation.
- downx3 15y ago
  I thought that was common knowledge - that with drinking - you have in general poorer sleep. It's rather insidious.
- jennyjitters 15y ago
  Maybe that could explain why the segmented sleep pattern was considered normal way back when. I don't imagine there was a whole lot for people to do in the evenings besides drink =)

conradfr 15y ago

Some recent studies showed that an healthy night seems to be no more than 7 hours. Segmented sleep is interesting but I don't think a majority of people could balance that with family and work.

RyanMcGreal 15y ago
It rather seems that family and work need to be adjusted to balance them with our natural sleeping rhythm.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Assuming that this is in fact out natural sleeping rhythm.

MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago

I had 10 hours last night. 8 til 6

ericdykstra 15y ago

It would have been nice if there were some actionable items. What are the best segments? Is there something wrong if I can sleep 8 hours without trouble? Does anyone have links to more research, perhaps with something a little more actionable of a conclusion?

sodiumphosphate 15y ago
The article suggests that it's natural to take two four hour sleep sessions, intermediated by a one to two hour break. I think that this bears out to what many of us are experiencing, and the idea to consider is simply to stop worrying about it and embrace it. The 'second sleep' is likely getting cut short, because we are not budgeting for the break. I consistently tend to find myself daydreaming during this part of the night, anxious (as the article notes) about not sleeping. So personally, I'm just going to continue doing this without worry, and budget time for it. Duh, right? Why didn't I think of that before? It makes perfect sense now after reading the article. I may even go wild and actually get up and do things for an hour or two every night, you know, for science. Many thanks to the poster.

Shank 15y ago

I've kept a sleep pattern of 4-5 hours by accident, and I don't seem to function any less efficiently than when I sleep 8 or more hours. I do end up taking a nap on occasion, but that's still 6-7 hours, not 8.

metatronscube 15y ago

I have never slept for 8hrs, not even close. I sometimes wonder how people can sleep for that long and what their jobs and life's must be like. After 5-7hrs I usually wake up feeling totally refreshed and ready to go (even better after my first coffee ;))

pavelkaroukin 15y ago
You are lucky :) Some math - 1 hour a day less sleep than "normal" people give you: 1 hr * 365 days / 24 hours in day ~ 15 days. And these are 24hours day. What it really should be: 1 hr * 365 days / (24 hours in day - 6 hours you sleep on average) ~ 21 days. Which is, well, in office terms, work month :) congrats, you got 1/12 life for free :)
- kamaal 15y ago
  I don't think sleep can be counted out of life. Dreams are the most beautiful things to ever happen to humans. I have always lived two lives one in dreams and one while am awake. And some experiences that I've had dreaming just can't be had while I'm awake.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

Just get rid of your alarm clock, and wake up when your body tells you to.

sodiumphosphate 15y ago
Sure, that's the best way, but most people cannot do it; they risk being late for work, or in my case, getting the kids to school. (Actually, to be honest, my only risk is in not having as much time as I'd like before the kids wake up.) A good second choice seems to be using something like 'Sleep Cycle' for iPhone, or one of these fancy new wristband accelerometer gizmos. I've had good success with Sleep Cycle, myself.
- hornbaker 15y ago
  > I've had good success with Sleep Cycle, myself. I'm really liking the Sleep Cycle app, too. Works great, simple, best 99 cents I've spent. Prior to it, I had the $69 WakeMate wristband, but never warmed up to it – it was uncomfortable, and a pain to set and keep charged.
joering2 15y ago
hm, sorry to ask, but: are you employed? most folks I know, including me, have serious problems with sleep. it seems like we tap into each corner of human body and understand less or more how it works, but yet there is no real science behind how sleep works and how much of it we need. Heck, afaik scientists still argue why we need sleep at all and whats the main reasoning behind it. But not to brag too much: sometimes it happens to me that I sleep less hours and am more refreshed than sleeping longer, or even legit 7 or 8. I guess I just hit the right spot at the right time and REM phases worked out. If someone comes up with a device that can help you sleep not too long not to short so you always wake up fresh, I think he/she will nail a billion dollar idea!
- recursive 15y ago
  I'm employed. I don't use alarms. I just go to bed early enough so that I'll naturally want to wake up in time for work.

waiwai933 15y ago

Not that I know anything about this, but isn't it possible that having this segmented sleep could possibly be bad for you? Just because our ancestors slept as such doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you, does it? (That's not to say it couldn't be good, just that I don't understand why the article seems to imply that it necessarily must be good.)

agentultra 15y ago

Sleep is weird. If I wake up in the middle of the night and go back to sleep... I feel like ass the next day. If I get less than eight hours I'm pretty tired the next day. But science says that shouldn't happen!? Not enough evidence to suggest that there's any kind of regularity to how humans "should" sleep yet.

pavelkaroukin 15y ago
It is even more weird than that. From my and some friend's experience: if you sleep more then 9 hours straight, instead of usual 6-8 (this happens on weekends usually), I feel really terrible in the morning - not being able to get out of bed, but in the same time not being able to sleep. Finally when I get out of bed - I feel really trashed for next several hours. So it is not just less than 8 hours makes things worse, same applies to more then 8 hours. So it is either I have to sleep 6-8 hours only, or I have adapted to this schedule so well, that anything else makes me feel terrible. On the other hand, I have handful examples of me traveling with few flight changes, timezones changes, more than 30 hours in flights/airports, and after getting to my destination I spent full 16 hours day working or meeting with friends just fine. May be a little dizzy. And after consequent 8 hours sleep night - feel great next day. This suggest, that it (8 hours sleep requirement) is more than just a something "hardwired" in to human's body... Yes, sleep is weird.
- simon 15y ago
  This is why, I find that getting up at the same time on the weekend as I do during the work week actually helps keep my sleep patterns somewhat regular. So, although the idea of an occasional Saturday morning sleep-in sounds good, in practic, I'm better off getting up at my usual 4:45am every day and supplementing with a short nap after lunch if necessary.
- just-a-rascal 15y ago
  Often when you wake up after sleeping longer than usual (say more than 9 hours) you feel tired because of dehydration. Your body loses a fair bit of water while you sleep, so that might be reason you feel bad after a lie-in.

Xurinos 15y ago

There is only one study in this article, and it involves how a group of people adapted to a 14-hour sleep pattern. Other than that, there are no studies of importance here, nothing that confirms concretely that this kind of segmented sleep is effective for humans. It is based on historical hearsay but cannot make a prescriptive judgment. The evidence purely anecdotal. Please be careful in reading things like this that you do not immediately form a blind belief or justification.

hessenwolf 15y ago
Also, don't Spanish people and sailors sleep in segmented blocks? Not exactly newsworthy, then.
- gk1 15y ago
  Sailors' sleep patterns are mostly dictated by their watch schedule. Different ships have different schedules (eg, three eight-hour shifts, or four six-hour shifts, etc) and basically you try to get sleep whenever possible. I sailed on a ship that had six four-hour watches with three watch groups. That meant that one group would stand two 4-hour watches per 24-hour period (eg, 4am-8am then 4pm-8pm). With less than eight hours between watches, you had no choice but to sleep in two different blocks each day. The effects of such a schedule and standing watch in a windowless engine room deep in the hull of the ship are quite interesting. For example, people (myself included) would completely forget whether it is PM or AM. If you occasionally go outside--rather than straight from the engine room to your bunk--you never knew whether to expect it to be light or dark out. I often went out expecting to reminisce under the star-laden sky, only to find out it's broad daylight out.
- JeremyBanks 15y ago
  I don't see how your post could be "also" to the parent post: It's saying to be skeptical of the claims due to lack of evidence, while your post contrarily implies that this is already established knowledge.
  - hencq 15y ago

chollida1 15y ago

My brother in law is a "sleep scientist" at UPenn. His recommendation is that sleep cycles typically happen in 4 hour intervals so it's best to sleep 4 or 8 hours a night. Getting up int he middle of a sleep cycle is often as bad as getting less than 4 hours of sleep. And going to bed drunk is the worst for your sleep cycle.

kahawe 15y ago
> 4 hour intervals What about those 90 minute cycles that are also commonly cited in popular sleep-advice? Those wouldn't work into a 4hour schedule.
- chollida1 15y ago
  Honestly i don't know what specifically you are referring to. Are you referring to those sleep cycles where you have 4 90 minute naps a day instead of sleeping once at night? I'm not the subject matter expert, so I don't want to speak authoritatively:)
  - DrJokepu 15y ago
    I believe the grandparent was referring to the same phenomenon described in the relevant Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Sleep_stages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Sleep_stages
  - technel 15y ago
    He's talking about REM cycles, which last 90 minutes. Generally people recommend that you sleep for an amount of time that is a multiple of 90 minutes so that you do not disrupt one of these cycles.
  - kahawe 15y ago
    I was talking about whatever contemporarily popular science apps and websites like http://sleepyti.me/ http://sleepyti.me/ are buying into.

b3b0p 15y ago

According to my Bodymedia Fit, I almost never ever get a true 8 hours or more of sleep. Sure, I lay down at 10 PM or so and get up at 6 AM or later, but if this little device is as accurate as they claim it really opened my eyes that I was never getting 8 hours, when I thought I actually was. It says normally I get between 6 and 7 hours. Edit: I'm curious what the recommended amount of sleep, or if it really is an individual thing per 24 hour or so period.

kakaroto_BR 15y ago

I'm always tired and sleepy, doesn't matter how many hours I sleep. Taking pills to sleep make me fill dizzy all day long :(

dkarl 15y ago

I experience two sleeps sometimes when I'm not alone or when I drink a lot. If I'm alone, I usually read for an hour, and if I'm not alone, reading is the second choice. I always go back to sleep easily and get my full allotment. Until I read this article, it never occurred to me that I might be able to have that experience every night. Honestly, it sounds wonderful; sign me up to be in the vanguard. Now if only I could figure out how to make it happen when I'm alone and not drunk!

VonLipwig 15y ago

I am really into 'do what works for you'. You may find that that sleeping in two 4 hour blocks changes your life. You feel alive! Alternatively you may find yourself more tired. Personally I like sleeping 8-9 hours a night. I find myself fairly alert a few minutes after I wake up and I can start my day. It certainly doesn't feel 'unnatural' to me. I am also a big fan of sleeping when other people sleep so I can enjoy time with friends and family. Unusual sleep patterns typically mean missing out on some of this time.

jfoldi 15y ago
You don't feel like you over slept after 9 hours of sleep? Either way I have to agree with doing what works for you. I always made an attempt to sleep a full 8 hours and failed. I get by on 4-5 hours of sleep a night and feel fine!
- ramLlama 15y ago
  My sleep patterns are a lot like the parent commenter. I usually sleep about 7 to 8 hours, but occasionally sleep 9 or so. Do I feel like I've overslept? Sure in that I've "lost" an hour or two that I could have used. But my body doesn't feel like it's overslept. When it does, it tells me. With a half day of headaches.
- nostrademons 15y ago
  I find my acceptable waking points occur in 1.5 hour sleep cycles, and how many I need depends on how mentally taxing the stuff I'm working on is. For ordinary work, stuff I know how to do fairly well already, I need 8 hours. If I'm learning something new or putting in long hours that require concentration, I'll need 9.5 hours. If I'm thrown into a completely new situation - say, I need to decide the architecture of my startup and learn 3-4 new frameworks all at once, or I've just moved cross-country and started a new job - I'll need 11 hours. I can also function on 6.5 hours but feel pretty crummy, and there's a noticeable performance penalty for anything that requires concentration (math, computer programming, etc). On 4 hours of sleep, I'm a zombie - I do okay with everyday tasks and social interaction (with people I know), but can't really learn anything new and retain it. Curiously, I feel better on 4 hours of sleep than on 6.5, 9.5, or 11 - I'm more alive and less groggy, I just notice that my performance on external measures declines. I recall in the 2010 there were a bunch of athletes that all said the secret to their success - besides training hard - was getting 9 hours of sleep at night. IIRC both Sasha Cohen and Shaun White mentioned it. I think I'd also read brain research that REM sleep (which tends to be back-loaded towards the end of the night) is when your brain converts experiences from that day from short-term memory into long-term skillsets. That'd be consistent with my experience that more mentally demanding tasks require more sleep, and the experience of those Olympic athletes, and that I don't really suffer a short-term penalty from lack of sleep, it's more a long-term problem.

username3 15y ago

http://sleepyti.me/ http://sleepyti.me/

felipebueno 15y ago

Really? I think this is BS... I don't care about statistics or a 1595 painting or whatever. What I know is if I sleep less than seven hours I feel like crap during the day.

wisty 15y ago

Isn't this the proverbial midnight? You went to sleep for about four hours, then woke to have a midnight snack.

prodigal_erik 15y ago
Makes me wonder whether we're now (mostly) sleeping through midnight because eating more carbs acclimates us to extremes of blood sugar and insulin levels, letting the midnight food craving pass unnoticed.

etrain 15y ago

Google ngram explorer has the term 'first sleep' peaking in use in English Language circa 1870, before declining ~80% to present day. http://bit.ly/zt8AfD http://bit.ly/zt8AfD Tough to say if this was a 19th century phenomenon or was persistent through history based on the structure of their corpus.

achille 15y ago
It does not seem to be relevant, as it seems to track along with the general use of the word 'sleep' http://i.imgur.com/4AtC1.png http://i.imgur.com/4AtC1.png

bufo 15y ago

A great page about sleep cycles is this one http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm

kylebrown 15y ago
Hah, the Uberman's sleep schedule (six 20 minuted sessions totaling two hours of sleep per day). I remember trying that for a few days after seeing the kuro5hin article way back when. Supposed to take two weeks to adjust, but it was so painful after a few days that I lost faith and feared I getting caught in a hoax.
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samTeacup 15y ago

I have this weird sleep pattern, where I sleep from around 5pm-7pm or 7.30pm without an alarm clock, I am sleeping very deeply, always dreaming and really hard to wake me up (I don't notice the phone ringing right next to me) and then I'm sleeping from 1am to 6am, where I usually don't remember dreaming and where I wake up very easily

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jsherry 15y ago

"In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month." 'Plunging' people into 14 hours of darkness per day? Does this sound like a scientifically sound way to determine the natural sleeping patterns of humans?

AkThhhpppt 15y ago
Subtract artificial light, and how long would you be "plunged" into darkness every night this time of year at your latitude? Enforcing prehistoric lighting conditions at night and observing the resulting sleep pattern seems like a decent of finding someone's "natural" sleep pattern to me...

clux 15y ago

The guy who did this study spent 20 years. He found 500 'references to segmented sleep'. One of which being a painting depicting people not sleeping and sleeping simultaneously. That's less than one reference every 2 weeks. Either that guy had the most relaxing job in the world, or it is genuinely difficult to find such references. Assuming the latter to give the researcher the benefit of the doubt here; how deep do you have to look before you start to think that maybe this isn't actually that common after all? Also, how the bbc title reflects this study is beyond me.

mchafkin 15y ago

The New York Times took on this topic a few years back in a very good article that argued that the whole idea of the 8-hour sleep was invented by the mattress industry (and other purveyors of sleep products), and that humans don't need anywhere near 8 hours of continuous sleep. Ironically, all of the industry's marketing makes people anxious about getting enough sleep--and makes it harder for them to get to sleep (thus propagating the need for more expensive mattresses and pillows.) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18sleep-t.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18sleep-t.html?pa...

preetkimausam 15y ago
Western consumerism is going to change human lives for bad.
- freehunter 15y ago
  Then again, it's already changed human lives for the better as well. You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have... the facts of life.

kylek 15y ago

Interesting. Some of the lucid dreaming techniques try to capitalize on the split sleep schedule by taking melatonin before the first segment(induces a REM-less, deep sleep for the most part) and other supplements (vitamin B6, etc) before the second segment, resulting in a longer, more vivid dreaming session.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

While we are on the subject of sleep, does anyone here experience sleep paralysis?

will_lam 15y ago

This would be an interesting opportunity for Zeo or Fitbit to chime in on this if they were to mine their data, anonymize it and publish something about their users sleep patterns.

ricardobeat 15y ago
There are a few mobile sleep timer apps that could also contribute data.

ericmoritz 15y ago

I am going to try for a week or two. Having nearly 12 hours dedicated to work, I only have 4 exhausted hours in the evenings for eating dinner, spending time with my wife, kids and myself. If my wife and I split our sleep cycle into two 4 hour periods we can better spend my four hours of free time. The waking period between my commute and first sleep could be spend eating dinner, playing with the kids, and exercise. After my first sleep I can spend time with my wife, and study with a rested mind. Theoretically it seems like a good idea. We'll see how I cope after a week or two of trying.

nazgulnarsil 15y ago

I seem to operate best on a 6 hour block and a 3 hour block. The problem is that doing this my body wants to have a total cycle time around 26 hours.

ry0ohki 15y ago

So if one wanted to try getting into this cycle, do you set an alarm after 4 hours or if you wake up at all naturally in the night, stay up?

grey 15y ago

Has anyone ever read http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm or put it through any verification? It looks good but I'm no biologist, I've used it as my basis for years to avoid polyphasic schedules and embrace naps and biphasic sleep when my life allows for it.

mhartl 15y ago

There's a Zen saying relevant to the article (and to much of the discussion here). Rather than wringing your hands over "optimal sleep", I suggest trying it out. If your schedule allows, it can work wonders: When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep.

donniezazen 15y ago

My sleep is a lot more deep when I regularly sleep around 7 hours. Anything less or over makes me restless. I think I am going to try this. If I get up in middle of night, I will work for an hour or two and when I feel sleepy, I will go to bed.

jmsduran 15y ago

Interesting article. I usually sleep from 7pm - 10pm, wake up and do stuff (like read HN), then sleep again from 3am - 8am, with just enough time to get ready for work in the morning. Not too long ago I suffered from minor insomnia and lucid dreaming. It was awful, to the point where I started to dread bedtime. For me, my diet at the time (fatty foods + sugar + caffeine + alcohol) had a lot to do with it, so once I committed to a healthy diet, my body settled back into a consistent sleep cycle. I guess it's really what works for you.

xfhai 15y ago

There is some problem with the title of the article. It could also mean that you dont need 8 hours of sleep. Other point is the need for sleep varies with age. Babies sleep for very long time like 14 hours; old people need only 5 to 6 hours of sleep. The 8 hour sleep is for youth between 25 and 40 i think. Otherwise, very original point, I have never thought sleeping in 4-hour chunks was natural.

jeffwhelpley 15y ago

I totally do two 4 hour segments of sleep like they talk about, except that it is over a 48 hour period.