8 ms·

The culture map: How to navigate foreign cultures in business

89 points by navait 3y ago

Swizec 3y ago
Wonderful article and a fantastic example of how there’s a big gap between being fluent in English and being fluent in English, especially the English that your counter-party is using. Took me forever to get used to California English after I moved here from the slavic part of Europe. Still find a lot of it utterly boneheaded, but at least I know what’s going on and can cope … at great cost to personal sanity. It will never not irk me when people say ”Please feel free to X” when they mean ”It is paramount that you do X”
- the_shivers 3y ago
  Do you have some examples of the language seeming boneheaded? Sounds interesting.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Race condition, just edited :) > It will never not irk me when people say ”Please feel free to X” when they mean ”It is paramount that you do X” Another big one is when people say “Not my favorite”, but mean “I hate this”. And a cause of great confusion in the workplace: “Can we do X?” meaning “You should do X, I am delegating this task to you” And then there’s the whole genre of “corporate speak” memes like what “Per my last email” really means. On a more personal note, the California Yes is super frustrating when making plans with people. Just because someone said Yes, does not mean they have any intention of actually showing up. They might get a headache an hour or so before the planned meeting time. Headaches are very popular in California it seems.
    - Daub 3y ago
      > On a more personal note, the California Yes is super frustrating when making plans with people. Just because someone said Yes, does not mean they have any intention of actually showing up. They might get a headache an hour or so before the planned meeting time. Headaches are very popular in California it seems. The Californian 'Yes' sounds like the Japan one. British understatement gets me in trouble when communicating with americans. In the British to American dictionary, 'I would prefer not' becomes 'I wont'.
      - zarzavat 3y ago
        I realised that “It’s okay” can have three very different meanings: “It’s okay!” => (reassuringly), it’s fine, perhaps even great. “It’s okay” => (honestly), it’s neither good nor bad. “It’s okay” => (politely) This is terrible. For some reason non-native speakers and the occasional yank have problems with this.
        Swizec 3y ago
        > For some reason non-native speakers Here's where it gets even better as a slavic person – when I say "This is okay, but have you thought about flaws A, B, and C?" it means that your idea is so good that it's worthy of critique. To an American it sounds like I just started a scorched earth campaign against their ego.
        AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        Huh. I wouldn't take it that way (depending on tone of voice). I would not quite take it as "it's good enough to criticize", either. I would take it as my idea was neutral, and here are some flaws, which if I could fix them might turn it into a good idea.
        mbg721 3y ago
        "Would you like to donate to [x cause] today?" "That's okay" => No.
      - cheese_van 3y ago
        > British understatement gets me in trouble when communicating with americans. In the British to American dictionary, 'I would prefer not' becomes 'I wont'. It seems quite a few of the Americans you speak to haven't read Melville's "Bartleby". You'll not find a more emphatic, "I would prefer not" in literature.
      - resolutebat 3y ago
        In geek terms, the Japanese hai is not "yes", it's "ack": it's an acknowledgement that your message has been received, not validation that the receiver agrees with it, much less intends to do anything about it.
    - localghost3000 3y ago
      I thought it was called the California No? "Oh ya totally let's hang out!!" (you're never gonna hang out) I've lived in LA for over 25 years. I think part of the reason things are like this is that the sheer amount of people here make it hard to know if you are dealing with a person who is going to end up being a nut or not. This town is also full of narcissists and leeches who want to use you. I've let people into my life that I seriously regretted later. After enough of those you start getting more cagey. It's a shame really. Whenever I go somewhere else I am reminded how much more genuine people can be and how I need to be more mindful of what I say. Words hold a lot more power outside of the LA bubble. In a funny way we are much more like the British in this way. For example, locals know not to make eye contact while out and about. Not because we are dicks, but because if you happen to lock eyes with someone, theres a non zero chance they're gonna attack you or ask you for money etc. Take a ride on public transit if you don't believe me.
      - Swizec 3y ago
        > For example, locals know not to make eye contact while out and about I believe this is a city thing. We have the same back home in Ljubljana. The social contract in cities seems to be one of politely ignoring each others’ existence.
        jvm___ 3y ago
        My theory. The social contract varies in proportion with the available resources. In cities the friendliness is missing because you don't need to rely on others for food/water or anything else, you can just purchase it nearby. When resources run out that's where the social contract becomes more social. Camping trip and need a match to start your campfire? Your neighbor will happily chat with you. Power outage. People on the street become way more friendly. Transit failure. People are more likely to help arrange transport or chat as they wait. Snowstorm snowed you in. That's how you meet the new neighbors who are also out shovelling.
        harimau777 3y ago
        I sort of interpreted it an inverse way: In a city, the limited resources are emotional/social energy, sense of privacy, etc. So the social contract is to conserve them by politely not noticing each other; thereby allowing people to maintain the reserves necessary to get through the day.
    - gdmt 3y ago
      These are good observations on how to deal with managers and acquaintances. It’s more rewarding to invest your energy in close friends and family, although this doesn’t always come easily if you’ve recently moved to a new place.
    - seanhunter 3y ago
      Other examples that I have found difficult 1) My wife (native English), when she is asking me to do something , always says "Would you like to...?" eg "Would you like to do the dishes?" To which, the answer for me (English first language, but born and raised in Africa) is "No", because these sorts of chores are things I do in spite of not wanting to do them because I know they are necessary. I've since learned that I actually would like to do the dishes in those cases and perhaps just don't realise. 2) A lot of time when I am leading a team or giving instructions, people from certain cultures get confused because I always ask with the word "Please" eg "Please could you get this analysis to me by close of business so I can work on it tomorrow morning while you're sleeping?". For me that is a very specific and clear instruction, but in some cultures it seems if something is asked with a "please" that means it's a favour rather than an instruction, so will lead to mixed results until we get used to each other.
Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
This is very similar, but somehow not the same as this "The Culture Map" [0], which I thought was great and would highly recommend. https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/1610392760/ https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/16103...
- venantius 3y ago
  The article is literally a summary of this book.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
    But there is no link to the book or the author. That's why I was confused.
    - dmd 3y ago
      It's the second sentence of the article.
- navait 3y ago
  Whoops I forgot to link to the book or make it clear it's a book summary.
Quinzel 3y ago
I don’t have a link to the book, but; Peng, M.W. (2022). Global Strategy. 5th Edition. Cengage. is an excellent read for navigating foreign cultures in business. I believe there may now be a 6th edition of the book. Highly recommend to anyone with an interest in global business strategy.
runxel 3y ago
Apparently this is also how the Brexit happened ;) Legend has it that David Cameron asked Merkel. She said "No". He thought it means he can get what he wants – only to find out later, that indeed a German "no" is a clear and tight "no". But by then he already fell over his rhetoric...
- civilitty 3y ago
  David Cameron's understanding of the word "no" has always been a bit suspect [1]. He took Yes, Minister too literally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggate
version_five 3y ago
I've worked with people from a lot of different cultures in various scientific and technical situations, with mostly North Americans in more nebulous "business" situations. What I'd generalize is that on technical matters, there are few communication issues across cultures. People are able to make themselves understood and collaborate, even in the face of language barriers. On the other hand, even simple business discussions within one's own culture can because quickly ridiculous, with big misunderstandings, nobody saying what they mean, politics, etc. Cynically I think it's because business is mostly bullshit so comes down to irrelevant political stuff.
- jojobas 3y ago
  We (Australians) have been hit with some serious stuff with our Filipino subsidiary. They've been asked to do something, they realized it was not the right thing to do a week in, still did what they've been asked for more than two months. Later when we realized we asked the wrong thing, they said "oh yes of course we knew it was not the right thing". The convention that you don't argue with "the boss" cost us many man-months of work. You can only successfully discuss technical matters if both parties are willing to do just that.
  - akg_67 3y ago
    > ... if both parties are willing to do just that If only both parties created trust between each other. You grow what you sow.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      That's a bullshit take. We had an Australian go there and hire everyone. If it were Australians he hired out the blue (i.e. with just that little trust), he would have heard about the problem as soon as they were discovered.
      - kelipso 3y ago
        There has to be an understanding that you won't be penalized for saying it's not the right thing. Which might be obvious in your company culture but not really obvious even for different companies much less broader cultural differences.
baud147258 3y ago
> One example she gives is math class: In France, students are taught to calculate pi as a class before using it in a formula. As a French, I don't think I ever calculated pi, we were just handed the formulas and told to use it and I don't think I saw an exercise on how to calculate pi for a few years (or maybe I didn't saw it at school...)
- adev_ 3y ago
  > As a French, I don't think I ever calculated pi, we were just handed the formulas and told to use it and I don't think I saw an exercise on how to calculate pi for a few years (or maybe I didn't saw it at school...) The PI example might be slightly exaggerated but it is not such a far fetch. For my generation, most advanced Mathematics were taught in France by first a theorem proof and then by an example on how to use it. I do not know if it is still the case nowadays.
- wslh 3y ago
  I remember learning how to approximate pi at around 10 years old. Not in France.
readline_prompt 3y ago
Japanese... そうですね（soudesune | "riiighhtt....） it never means a thing related to the subject.
motohagiography 3y ago
Anecdotally as a non-UK person, when British people complain about something, I think it means they're trying to make friends with you. As a Canadian, I can reveal that when someone says "I'm sorry," what they tend to mean is, "I'm not going to pay." Witticisms aside, manifestations of temprament across cultures are ridiculously diverse. If there were such a thing as a type-A-minus personality, I might fall into that category, where one presumes others take responsibility for their own words and actions. The excessive submissiveness in some cultures (calling people sir, inability to decline, etc) is difficult not to interpret as a form of perfidy and passive aggression, where if you aren't taking responsibility for the conversation, it implies I must. By some cultures I mean west of Nevada. As an anglo, my interactions with people from France are predictably funny, and the effect of the intellectual sparring yields some amazing solutions, but resolving that we have the mutual dignity of peers tends to take a few rounds. If I were to characterize what people interpret as Canadian niceness, it's that we are typically raised to treat malice as an inferior sentiment. Even though it may be real and meaningful, mainly it means you're losing. As a result, we produce some uniquely insufferable pricks, but if you're wondering how someone can seem so oblivious to insult, this detail might provide some useful context.
29athrowaway 3y ago
This is a generalization. Being verbose/explicit is not seen favorably in every industry in the US.
nuc1e0n 3y ago
Great article. More cross cultural knowledge and appreciation is sorely needed!
jccalhoun 3y ago
The article has some good examples but the book seems little more than a repackaging of the Hofstede model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensio... These models can be useful but they shouldn't be taken as set in stone, objective descriptions and in a specific situation it is always hard to tell if it is a culture thing or a personality thing.
- pella 3y ago
  "The Culture Map" is an American perspective on cultural diversity. Other models and research exist. - "Trompenaars's model of national culture differences" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompenaars%27s_model_of_national_culture_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompenaars%27s_model_of_natio...
mattlondon 3y ago
These things are sometimes dangerous. I have had Americans use "what the British mean when they say ..." on me and colleagues and it has backfired badly. If it were a condescending guide for "how women think" (for example) then it would rightly be thrown out as trash. Turns out that people are individuals and generalisations of "You are X so you are thinking/will do Y" are not useful. Use with caution.
- twoquestions 3y ago
  The book gets into that a little bit (at least what I read in the Amazon preview), the gist was it's very Not Great to say "You're an American so you'll do this", but rather to say "American business culture generally expects this", which is more accurate. Despite being American, I've had a boss literally ask me to "read their mind" on something, I'm shocked I outlasted them in the company despite my low rank compared to them. Luckily for me subsequent leadership was more forthright.
fwlr 3y ago
Another important difference in business cultures is handling difficult or unachievable requirements. Say you send a work order that needs very tight tolerance in a certain set of holes or a high degree of flatness on a particular surface, and while the company can make the part, they cannot quite fulfill that specific requirement. How each culture handles that situation can vary dramatically, especially outside of the West. For instance, a German manufacturer will generally tell you “no, we cannot achieve that” on the initial proposal and won’t agree to any requirement they aren’t completely confident they can meet. (This can be frustrating as it feels like they aren’t willing to try.) An American manufacturer will generally be more willing to agree to requirements they might not be able to meet, as they will make an effort to meet them, and inform you early on when their effort fails. (This can be frustrating, as it feels like they’ve surprised you.) A British manufacturer tends to be somewhere in between, they will initially flag the difficult requirement in an understated way, gradually becoming less understated as the problem grows. So there’s a hint of the German immediate no, and they ramp up to the American “So, it turns out…”. Where this gets quite dramatically different is when you venture outside of the West. The Japanese way is to continually promise fulfillment while conspicuously making no progress on it. It can be quite odd to experience - until you realize they’re trying to get you to notice the contradiction, so you can conclude for yourself that the requirement isn’t possible for them, and then reach out and relieve them of the obligation. It has the same function as the American “So, it turns out…”, it’s just obfuscated with politeness. Without awareness of this you can get into some really difficult situations. The Chinese way is even more wild to Westerners. Their solution for a requirement they can’t fulfill is to produce a small sample of parts that do meet the requirement and give you those first. The idea is that you can use those to show your boss that the requirements have been met.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  A couple of those approaches result in building things that work, efficiently at scale. The rest don’t.
  - fwlr 3y ago
    It’s tempting to think this, and I’ve thought this way before, but I don’t think it’s true. All of the cultures mentioned in my comment are manufacturing powerhouses - by most measures, each has (at different points) been literally the best in the world at manufacturing. I don’t think you can get that without being able to build things that work, efficiently, at scale. I do think it’s true that some cultural approaches are so incompatible with each other that they will never be able to work together efficiently at scale, but each culture is internally consistent and knows how to operate within itself.
mk_stjames 3y ago
Unless I'm missing something somewhere on this site... this is a summary about the book by Erin Meyer [0]. But I ctrl+F'd and I don't see the name Erin Meyer anywhere on this page, nor do I see a link to another site or where to buy the book. I think that giving such a detailed summary + excerpts of a book on a site and not linking it is a bit shitty. In regards to the book points, the last one reminds me of another great book on cultural differences by Michelle Gelfand titled "Rule Makers, Rule Breakers" [1] on her theory about 'Tight' and 'Loose' societies. As someone who has lived and worked in several very different parts of the world (and called very different places 'home' at various times in life) the book went a long way to giving context on why I feel different in different places (I'm from a 'tight' society but now spend much of my time living in locales that tend to be 'loose' but always feel a bit alien due to never being able to shake the want of 'tightness' aka rules, order, timeliness and predictability.) [0] https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Boundaries/dp/1610392507 https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Bounda... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Makers-Breakers-Tight-Cultures/dp/1501152939 https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Makers-Breakers-Tight-Cultures/d...
- kfogel 3y ago
  I was also confused by the lack of mention of the author's name -- it's a very odd omission.
1letterunixname 3y ago
Reminds me of the book "Kiss, Bow, Or Shake Hands" by Morrison and Conaway. There are many dimensions of cultural differences and values to navigate, including: - Physical social distance - Collective - individualist - Transactional - social - Generosity - frugality - Past-, present-, or future-centric - Hierarchy - egalitarian - Blunt - saving face - Adversarial - cooperative - Organic - rigid process
pella 3y ago
related research: "Talking with tact: Polite language as a balance between kindness and informativity" Keywords: Politeness; computational modeling; communicative goals; pragmatics PDF: https://langcog.stanford.edu/papers_new/yoon-2016-cogsci.pdf https://langcog.stanford.edu/papers_new/yoon-2016-cogsci.pdf "Discussion" "Why would a speaker ever say something that is not maximally truthful and informative? Communication is often examined from the perspective of successful information transfer from speaker to listener. In the social realm, however, communication also can serve the social function of making the listener feel good and saving her face. We proposed here that intuitively “polite” utterances arise from the desire to be kind (i.e. save face). A cooperative speaker then tries to balance the goals to be kind and to be informative, and produces utterances of varying degrees of politeness that reflect this balance. To test this proposal, we examined inferential judgments on a speaker’s utterance, which was a potentially face-threatening evaluation of the listener’s performance. As we predicted, participants’ inferences about the true state of the world differed based on what the speaker said and whether the speaker’s intended goal was to be honest, nice or mean (Expt. 2). We were also able to predict participants’ attributions of different social goals to speakers depending on how well the literal utterance meaning matched the actual rating the performance deserved (Expt. 3). The model presented here relates to other work done in game-theoretic pragmatics. Van Rooy (2003) uses a gametheoretic analysis of polite requests (“Could you possibly take me home?”) to argue the purpose of polite language is to align the preferences of interlocutors. Our notion of social utility Usocial is similar in that it motivates speakers to signal worlds that make the listener feel good. Van Rooy’s analysis, however, relies on the notion that polite language is costly (in a social way e.g., by reducing one’s social status or incurring social debt to one’s conversational partner) but it’s not clear how the polite behaviors explored in our experiments (not polite requests) would incur any cost to speaker or listener. Our model derives its predictions by construing the speaker utility as a collection of possible goals (here, epistemic and social goals). The speech-acts themselves are not costly. Will machines ever be polite? Politeness requires more than merely saying conventionalized words (please, thank you) at the right moments; it requires a balance of informativity and kindness. Politeness is not an exception to rational communication; it is one important element of rational communication, serving a key social function of maintaining relationships. We extended the Rational Speech Acts framework to include social utility as a motive for utterance production. This work takes a concrete step toward quantitative models of the nuances of polite speech. And it moves us closer to courteous computation—to computers that communicate with tact."
lcedp 3y ago
Surely, Dutch understand the concepts of sarcasm, irony and euphemism.

89 points by navait 3y ago

Wonderful article and a fantastic example of how there’s a big gap between being fluent in English and being fluent in English, especially the English that your counter-party is using. Took me forever to get used to California English after I moved here from the slavic part of Europe. Still find a lot of it utterly boneheaded, but at least I know what’s going on and can cope … at great cost to personal sanity. It will never not irk me when people say ”Please feel free to X” when they mean ”It is paramount that you do X”

the_shivers 3y ago
Do you have some examples of the language seeming boneheaded? Sounds interesting.
- Swizec 3y ago
  Race condition, just edited :) > It will never not irk me when people say ”Please feel free to X” when they mean ”It is paramount that you do X” Another big one is when people say “Not my favorite”, but mean “I hate this”. And a cause of great confusion in the workplace: “Can we do X?” meaning “You should do X, I am delegating this task to you” And then there’s the whole genre of “corporate speak” memes like what “Per my last email” really means. On a more personal note, the California Yes is super frustrating when making plans with people. Just because someone said Yes, does not mean they have any intention of actually showing up. They might get a headache an hour or so before the planned meeting time. Headaches are very popular in California it seems.
  - Daub 3y ago
    > On a more personal note, the California Yes is super frustrating when making plans with people. Just because someone said Yes, does not mean they have any intention of actually showing up. They might get a headache an hour or so before the planned meeting time. Headaches are very popular in California it seems. The Californian 'Yes' sounds like the Japan one. British understatement gets me in trouble when communicating with americans. In the British to American dictionary, 'I would prefer not' becomes 'I wont'.
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      I realised that “It’s okay” can have three very different meanings: “It’s okay!” => (reassuringly), it’s fine, perhaps even great. “It’s okay” => (honestly), it’s neither good nor bad. “It’s okay” => (politely) This is terrible. For some reason non-native speakers and the occasional yank have problems with this.
      - Swizec 3y ago
        > For some reason non-native speakers Here's where it gets even better as a slavic person – when I say "This is okay, but have you thought about flaws A, B, and C?" it means that your idea is so good that it's worthy of critique. To an American it sounds like I just started a scorched earth campaign against their ego.
        AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        Huh. I wouldn't take it that way (depending on tone of voice). I would not quite take it as "it's good enough to criticize", either. I would take it as my idea was neutral, and here are some flaws, which if I could fix them might turn it into a good idea.
      - mbg721 3y ago
        "Would you like to donate to [x cause] today?" "That's okay" => No.
    - cheese_van 3y ago
      > British understatement gets me in trouble when communicating with americans. In the British to American dictionary, 'I would prefer not' becomes 'I wont'. It seems quite a few of the Americans you speak to haven't read Melville's "Bartleby". You'll not find a more emphatic, "I would prefer not" in literature.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      In geek terms, the Japanese hai is not "yes", it's "ack": it's an acknowledgement that your message has been received, not validation that the receiver agrees with it, much less intends to do anything about it.
  - localghost3000 3y ago
    I thought it was called the California No? "Oh ya totally let's hang out!!" (you're never gonna hang out) I've lived in LA for over 25 years. I think part of the reason things are like this is that the sheer amount of people here make it hard to know if you are dealing with a person who is going to end up being a nut or not. This town is also full of narcissists and leeches who want to use you. I've let people into my life that I seriously regretted later. After enough of those you start getting more cagey. It's a shame really. Whenever I go somewhere else I am reminded how much more genuine people can be and how I need to be more mindful of what I say. Words hold a lot more power outside of the LA bubble. In a funny way we are much more like the British in this way. For example, locals know not to make eye contact while out and about. Not because we are dicks, but because if you happen to lock eyes with someone, theres a non zero chance they're gonna attack you or ask you for money etc. Take a ride on public transit if you don't believe me.
    - Swizec 3y ago
      > For example, locals know not to make eye contact while out and about I believe this is a city thing. We have the same back home in Ljubljana. The social contract in cities seems to be one of politely ignoring each others’ existence.
      - jvm___ 3y ago
        My theory. The social contract varies in proportion with the available resources. In cities the friendliness is missing because you don't need to rely on others for food/water or anything else, you can just purchase it nearby. When resources run out that's where the social contract becomes more social. Camping trip and need a match to start your campfire? Your neighbor will happily chat with you. Power outage. People on the street become way more friendly. Transit failure. People are more likely to help arrange transport or chat as they wait. Snowstorm snowed you in. That's how you meet the new neighbors who are also out shovelling.
        harimau777 3y ago
        I sort of interpreted it an inverse way: In a city, the limited resources are emotional/social energy, sense of privacy, etc. So the social contract is to conserve them by politely not noticing each other; thereby allowing people to maintain the reserves necessary to get through the day.
  - gdmt 3y ago
    These are good observations on how to deal with managers and acquaintances. It’s more rewarding to invest your energy in close friends and family, although this doesn’t always come easily if you’ve recently moved to a new place.
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    Other examples that I have found difficult 1) My wife (native English), when she is asking me to do something , always says "Would you like to...?" eg "Would you like to do the dishes?" To which, the answer for me (English first language, but born and raised in Africa) is "No", because these sorts of chores are things I do in spite of not wanting to do them because I know they are necessary. I've since learned that I actually would like to do the dishes in those cases and perhaps just don't realise. 2) A lot of time when I am leading a team or giving instructions, people from certain cultures get confused because I always ask with the word "Please" eg "Please could you get this analysis to me by close of business so I can work on it tomorrow morning while you're sleeping?". For me that is a very specific and clear instruction, but in some cultures it seems if something is asked with a "please" that means it's a favour rather than an instruction, so will lead to mixed results until we get used to each other.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago

This is very similar, but somehow not the same as this "The Culture Map" [0], which I thought was great and would highly recommend. https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/1610392760/ https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/16103...

venantius 3y ago
The article is literally a summary of this book.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  But there is no link to the book or the author. That's why I was confused.
  - dmd 3y ago
    It's the second sentence of the article.
navait 3y ago
Whoops I forgot to link to the book or make it clear it's a book summary.

Quinzel 3y ago

I don’t have a link to the book, but; Peng, M.W. (2022). Global Strategy. 5th Edition. Cengage. is an excellent read for navigating foreign cultures in business. I believe there may now be a 6th edition of the book. Highly recommend to anyone with an interest in global business strategy.

runxel 3y ago

Apparently this is also how the Brexit happened ;) Legend has it that David Cameron asked Merkel. She said "No". He thought it means he can get what he wants – only to find out later, that indeed a German "no" is a clear and tight "no". But by then he already fell over his rhetoric...

civilitty 3y ago
David Cameron's understanding of the word "no" has always been a bit suspect [1]. He took Yes, Minister too literally. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggate

version_five 3y ago

I've worked with people from a lot of different cultures in various scientific and technical situations, with mostly North Americans in more nebulous "business" situations. What I'd generalize is that on technical matters, there are few communication issues across cultures. People are able to make themselves understood and collaborate, even in the face of language barriers. On the other hand, even simple business discussions within one's own culture can because quickly ridiculous, with big misunderstandings, nobody saying what they mean, politics, etc. Cynically I think it's because business is mostly bullshit so comes down to irrelevant political stuff.

jojobas 3y ago
We (Australians) have been hit with some serious stuff with our Filipino subsidiary. They've been asked to do something, they realized it was not the right thing to do a week in, still did what they've been asked for more than two months. Later when we realized we asked the wrong thing, they said "oh yes of course we knew it was not the right thing". The convention that you don't argue with "the boss" cost us many man-months of work. You can only successfully discuss technical matters if both parties are willing to do just that.
- akg_67 3y ago
  > ... if both parties are willing to do just that If only both parties created trust between each other. You grow what you sow.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    That's a bullshit take. We had an Australian go there and hire everyone. If it were Australians he hired out the blue (i.e. with just that little trust), he would have heard about the problem as soon as they were discovered.
    - kelipso 3y ago
      There has to be an understanding that you won't be penalized for saying it's not the right thing. Which might be obvious in your company culture but not really obvious even for different companies much less broader cultural differences.

baud147258 3y ago

> One example she gives is math class: In France, students are taught to calculate pi as a class before using it in a formula. As a French, I don't think I ever calculated pi, we were just handed the formulas and told to use it and I don't think I saw an exercise on how to calculate pi for a few years (or maybe I didn't saw it at school...)

adev_ 3y ago
> As a French, I don't think I ever calculated pi, we were just handed the formulas and told to use it and I don't think I saw an exercise on how to calculate pi for a few years (or maybe I didn't saw it at school...) The PI example might be slightly exaggerated but it is not such a far fetch. For my generation, most advanced Mathematics were taught in France by first a theorem proof and then by an example on how to use it. I do not know if it is still the case nowadays.
wslh 3y ago
I remember learning how to approximate pi at around 10 years old. Not in France.

readline_prompt 3y ago

Japanese... そうですね（soudesune | "riiighhtt....） it never means a thing related to the subject.

motohagiography 3y ago

Anecdotally as a non-UK person, when British people complain about something, I think it means they're trying to make friends with you. As a Canadian, I can reveal that when someone says "I'm sorry," what they tend to mean is, "I'm not going to pay." Witticisms aside, manifestations of temprament across cultures are ridiculously diverse. If there were such a thing as a type-A-minus personality, I might fall into that category, where one presumes others take responsibility for their own words and actions. The excessive submissiveness in some cultures (calling people sir, inability to decline, etc) is difficult not to interpret as a form of perfidy and passive aggression, where if you aren't taking responsibility for the conversation, it implies I must. By some cultures I mean west of Nevada. As an anglo, my interactions with people from France are predictably funny, and the effect of the intellectual sparring yields some amazing solutions, but resolving that we have the mutual dignity of peers tends to take a few rounds. If I were to characterize what people interpret as Canadian niceness, it's that we are typically raised to treat malice as an inferior sentiment. Even though it may be real and meaningful, mainly it means you're losing. As a result, we produce some uniquely insufferable pricks, but if you're wondering how someone can seem so oblivious to insult, this detail might provide some useful context.

29athrowaway 3y ago

This is a generalization. Being verbose/explicit is not seen favorably in every industry in the US.

nuc1e0n 3y ago

Great article. More cross cultural knowledge and appreciation is sorely needed!

jccalhoun 3y ago

The article has some good examples but the book seems little more than a repackaging of the Hofstede model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensio... These models can be useful but they shouldn't be taken as set in stone, objective descriptions and in a specific situation it is always hard to tell if it is a culture thing or a personality thing.

pella 3y ago
"The Culture Map" is an American perspective on cultural diversity. Other models and research exist. - "Trompenaars's model of national culture differences" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompenaars%27s_model_of_national_culture_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompenaars%27s_model_of_natio...

mattlondon 3y ago

These things are sometimes dangerous. I have had Americans use "what the British mean when they say ..." on me and colleagues and it has backfired badly. If it were a condescending guide for "how women think" (for example) then it would rightly be thrown out as trash. Turns out that people are individuals and generalisations of "You are X so you are thinking/will do Y" are not useful. Use with caution.

twoquestions 3y ago
The book gets into that a little bit (at least what I read in the Amazon preview), the gist was it's very Not Great to say "You're an American so you'll do this", but rather to say "American business culture generally expects this", which is more accurate. Despite being American, I've had a boss literally ask me to "read their mind" on something, I'm shocked I outlasted them in the company despite my low rank compared to them. Luckily for me subsequent leadership was more forthright.

fwlr 3y ago

Another important difference in business cultures is handling difficult or unachievable requirements. Say you send a work order that needs very tight tolerance in a certain set of holes or a high degree of flatness on a particular surface, and while the company can make the part, they cannot quite fulfill that specific requirement. How each culture handles that situation can vary dramatically, especially outside of the West. For instance, a German manufacturer will generally tell you “no, we cannot achieve that” on the initial proposal and won’t agree to any requirement they aren’t completely confident they can meet. (This can be frustrating as it feels like they aren’t willing to try.) An American manufacturer will generally be more willing to agree to requirements they might not be able to meet, as they will make an effort to meet them, and inform you early on when their effort fails. (This can be frustrating, as it feels like they’ve surprised you.) A British manufacturer tends to be somewhere in between, they will initially flag the difficult requirement in an understated way, gradually becoming less understated as the problem grows. So there’s a hint of the German immediate no, and they ramp up to the American “So, it turns out…”. Where this gets quite dramatically different is when you venture outside of the West. The Japanese way is to continually promise fulfillment while conspicuously making no progress on it. It can be quite odd to experience - until you realize they’re trying to get you to notice the contradiction, so you can conclude for yourself that the requirement isn’t possible for them, and then reach out and relieve them of the obligation. It has the same function as the American “So, it turns out…”, it’s just obfuscated with politeness. Without awareness of this you can get into some really difficult situations. The Chinese way is even more wild to Westerners. Their solution for a requirement they can’t fulfill is to produce a small sample of parts that do meet the requirement and give you those first. The idea is that you can use those to show your boss that the requirements have been met.

unsupp0rted 3y ago
A couple of those approaches result in building things that work, efficiently at scale. The rest don’t.
- fwlr 3y ago
  It’s tempting to think this, and I’ve thought this way before, but I don’t think it’s true. All of the cultures mentioned in my comment are manufacturing powerhouses - by most measures, each has (at different points) been literally the best in the world at manufacturing. I don’t think you can get that without being able to build things that work, efficiently, at scale. I do think it’s true that some cultural approaches are so incompatible with each other that they will never be able to work together efficiently at scale, but each culture is internally consistent and knows how to operate within itself.

mk_stjames 3y ago

Unless I'm missing something somewhere on this site... this is a summary about the book by Erin Meyer [0]. But I ctrl+F'd and I don't see the name Erin Meyer anywhere on this page, nor do I see a link to another site or where to buy the book. I think that giving such a detailed summary + excerpts of a book on a site and not linking it is a bit shitty. In regards to the book points, the last one reminds me of another great book on cultural differences by Michelle Gelfand titled "Rule Makers, Rule Breakers" [1] on her theory about 'Tight' and 'Loose' societies. As someone who has lived and worked in several very different parts of the world (and called very different places 'home' at various times in life) the book went a long way to giving context on why I feel different in different places (I'm from a 'tight' society but now spend much of my time living in locales that tend to be 'loose' but always feel a bit alien due to never being able to shake the want of 'tightness' aka rules, order, timeliness and predictability.) [0] https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Boundaries/dp/1610392507 https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Bounda... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Makers-Breakers-Tight-Cultures/dp/1501152939 https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Makers-Breakers-Tight-Cultures/d...

kfogel 3y ago
I was also confused by the lack of mention of the author's name -- it's a very odd omission.

1letterunixname 3y ago

Reminds me of the book "Kiss, Bow, Or Shake Hands" by Morrison and Conaway. There are many dimensions of cultural differences and values to navigate, including: - Physical social distance - Collective - individualist - Transactional - social - Generosity - frugality - Past-, present-, or future-centric - Hierarchy - egalitarian - Blunt - saving face - Adversarial - cooperative - Organic - rigid process

pella 3y ago

related research: "Talking with tact: Polite language as a balance between kindness and informativity" Keywords: Politeness; computational modeling; communicative goals; pragmatics PDF: https://langcog.stanford.edu/papers_new/yoon-2016-cogsci.pdf https://langcog.stanford.edu/papers_new/yoon-2016-cogsci.pdf "Discussion" "Why would a speaker ever say something that is not maximally truthful and informative? Communication is often examined from the perspective of successful information transfer from speaker to listener. In the social realm, however, communication also can serve the social function of making the listener feel good and saving her face. We proposed here that intuitively “polite” utterances arise from the desire to be kind (i.e. save face). A cooperative speaker then tries to balance the goals to be kind and to be informative, and produces utterances of varying degrees of politeness that reflect this balance. To test this proposal, we examined inferential judgments on a speaker’s utterance, which was a potentially face-threatening evaluation of the listener’s performance. As we predicted, participants’ inferences about the true state of the world differed based on what the speaker said and whether the speaker’s intended goal was to be honest, nice or mean (Expt. 2). We were also able to predict participants’ attributions of different social goals to speakers depending on how well the literal utterance meaning matched the actual rating the performance deserved (Expt. 3). The model presented here relates to other work done in game-theoretic pragmatics. Van Rooy (2003) uses a gametheoretic analysis of polite requests (“Could you possibly take me home?”) to argue the purpose of polite language is to align the preferences of interlocutors. Our notion of social utility Usocial is similar in that it motivates speakers to signal worlds that make the listener feel good. Van Rooy’s analysis, however, relies on the notion that polite language is costly (in a social way e.g., by reducing one’s social status or incurring social debt to one’s conversational partner) but it’s not clear how the polite behaviors explored in our experiments (not polite requests) would incur any cost to speaker or listener. Our model derives its predictions by construing the speaker utility as a collection of possible goals (here, epistemic and social goals). The speech-acts themselves are not costly. Will machines ever be polite? Politeness requires more than merely saying conventionalized words (please, thank you) at the right moments; it requires a balance of informativity and kindness. Politeness is not an exception to rational communication; it is one important element of rational communication, serving a key social function of maintaining relationships. We extended the Rational Speech Acts framework to include social utility as a motive for utterance production. This work takes a concrete step toward quantitative models of the nuances of polite speech. And it moves us closer to courteous computation—to computers that communicate with tact."

lcedp 3y ago

Surely, Dutch understand the concepts of sarcasm, irony and euphemism.