8 ms·
American engineers are lucky to earn enough to be able to save up and do stuff like this, like on $200k you can save enough to really try a start-up for a year
by _vbnz 3y ago
American engineers are lucky to earn enough to be able to save up and do stuff like this, like on $200k you can save enough to really try a start-up for a year or two.
Whereas in Europe we're lucky to get $80k in the same jobs, and then the state steals half of that :/
- ant6n 3y agoIn France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay. In Germany you can get 6 months of unemployment insurance when starting a startup out of unemployment. Or get 6 months paid when starting a startup out of Uni. Then you could get various public funding opportunities like a startup bonus (for example 50K public funding for 50K private investment in an innovative company in Berlin).
- asnyder 3y agoNot to mention that in Germany many University students not only get free schooling, but also housing AND a monthly stipend. Essentially UBI for students!
- nxm 3y ago*free=tax payer funded
- FinnKuhn 3y agoDefinitely not really true. Under 15% of students receive BAFÖG [1]. No idea where you got the idea that German students get free housing at many Universities as that couldn't be further from the truth considering that there are only enough rooms for around 10% of all students [2] and those are definietly not free, although pretty cheap. However many struggle to find an Apartment, especially in bigger Cities like Berlin or Munich. [1] https://www.bafoeg-rechner.de/Hintergrund/art-2416-bafoeg-statistik-2019.php https://www.bafoeg-rechner.de/Hintergrund/art-2416-bafoeg-st... [2] https://www.iwd.de/artikel/wohnungsnot-der-studenten-verschaerft-sich-weiter-499592/ https://www.iwd.de/artikel/wohnungsnot-der-studenten-verscha...
- asnyder 3y agoI said many, not all :). You're right, housing isn't free, but if you get student housing it's usually less than the monthly stipend thus free for the student.
- FinnKuhn 3y agonot really. The average monthly stipend (that only 15% even get) is 579€, which is arguable not enough for rent in most bigger Cities (and that is ignoring that you also need to eat). The vast majority of students are either financed by their parents (the stipend is dependent on their income and if they earn more than a certain amount they a legally obligated to help their child) or by themselves. In Germany the university is mostly free (a couple hundred euros a semester), but most definitely don't live for "free".
- 6510 3y agoIMHO it is the worse time to start a startup. You should do it while still in the uni so that you can get all kinds of help. Equally good seems some actual experience(?) People have been writing software and running businesses for a good while. Maybe they know something?
- p0nce 3y agoAmazingly I did that for 3.5 years at 70% pay, I think the law changed after that. It is the biggest "incubator" in the country.
- bujak300 3y agoDo you possibly have more specific information about france? I would love to know more
- sofixa 3y agoThere are a few different things: You can get a part of what you would receive as unemployment benefits as capital to invest when creating/taking over a company: https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/vosdroits/F15252 https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/vosdroits/F15252 And you can also just continue receiving unemployment benefits while creating a company, as long as revenues are below a certain threshold: https://www.legalstart.fr/fiches-pratiques/autoentrepreneur/auto-entrepreneur-cumul-chomage/ https://www.legalstart.fr/fiches-pratiques/autoentrepreneur/...
- RestlessMind 3y ago> In France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay. Then why does France have such a low rate of new business formation (5.3/1000 people) - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.NDNS.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.NDNS.ZS?most_rec... Or as another indicator, number of tech startups per Million is 234 for the US, while only 24 for France - https://www.startupranking.com/countries https://www.startupranking.com/countries
- ouiouiaway2 3y ago[flagged]
- RestlessMind 3y ago> Because the French couldn't give a fuck about making money. citation needed. I have met a lot of French people and they just seem normal human beings like any other nation. So I disagree with you.
- ouiouiaway2 3y agoTalk to those in the countryside, not Île-de-France. Real French; not the over-socialized urbanites or the spiritually-deadened "cosmopolitans."
- RestlessMind 3y agoI am convinced that you are a troll if you think people living in Ile-de-France are not real French.
- ouiouiaway2 3y agoAnd I'm convinced you are without a sense of independent thought, if you really believe a bunch of bobos are French.
- 3y ago
- iancmceachern 3y agoI was told they they just stopped this policy
- zzzeek 3y ago[flagged]
- nobody995765 3y agoThat's a bunch of stereotyping. I work in the telecom industry and live in a place without bay area or Seattle type cost of living. I get 15-days caregiver leave, 12 weeks paternity leave and 20 days of vacation. A sr sw engineer where I am at will get about $175k with bonus. A staff engineer will make about $300k with RSU. It's not Big Tech but definitely better than what Europe has. Again not being in the bay area helps. I have a very flexible work schedule and a pretty awesome work life balance. Don't go by what the media portrays. Your comment makes it sound like Tech workers can never take vacation or have kids. It couldn't be furthest from the truth.
- NeverFade 3y agoIn 2022, a 5-year peak year, 313 people in the entire US died from active shooters: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/active-shooters-fbi-report-2022-incidents https://www.cbsnews.com/news/active-shooters-fbi-report-2022... That's out of 330 million total population.
- iancmceachern 3y agoWe also have to pay a lot more out of pocket for basic services like healthcare,, transportation, childcare, etc.
- boc 3y agoYou’re paying for healthcare at a tech company? Usually your company provides this as a benefit. Same for commuter subsidies.
- l33t233372 3y agoI think they’re referring to the time after they leave to go work at a start up.
- lghh 3y agoEven with best-in-class health insurance in the US, one "gotcha" leaves you with an unpayable bill. Usually, your company provides health insurance. Health insurance != health care. Larger companies (I assume this translates to tech) will also usually have a clinic on-site for smaller things and it's heavily subsidized or free. None of this prevents you from 6-figure debt for something like a difficult, but largely by-the-book, birthing experience or a car accident.
- memonkey 3y agoYou can also have the best-in-class health insurance and flat out be denied coverage for whatever reason the insurance provider says.
- water554 3y agoMost insurance plans have an out of pocket maximum, no?
- iancmceachern 3y agoYes, but it can be tens of thousands in many cases, and it does not cover many things that it should, insurance companies put deliberate effort into screwing people put of their claims.
- busterarm 3y agoNew York and California steal (at least) half too. At least in Europe you get something for your taxes (okay, except maybe Germany).
- cjdoc29 3y agoCan you expand on the "at least half" part? On an income of $200k in California, for example, your tax rate is something like 8% (marginal). If you total it up with federal taxes, it's something like a 27% tax rate.
- bradlys 3y agoIt’s about 36%. https://smartasset.com/taxes/paycheck-calculator#EcokmNT9zH https://smartasset.com/taxes/paycheck-calculator#EcokmNT9zH
- 0xBDB 3y agoThat appears to be the effective rate for income tax, but there are also sales taxes, "stamp" tax on things like houses and cars, excise taxes (especially on fuel), property tax, and inflation. I'm pretty confident you can get above half at a high income in California, New York, or especially Massachusetts. You do get something for that, but it is surprising (to me anyway) for example how similar the percentages of GDP spent on social welfare are between the blue U.S. states and Australia, and how much more the Australians seem to get for the money.
- busterarm 3y ago> You do get something for that, but it is surprising (to me anyway) for example how similar the percentages of GDP spent on social welfare are between the blue U.S. states and Australia, and how much more the Australians seem to get for the money. Most social welfare programs that people can get in NY are niche. You generally have to meet certain demographic requirements. It also takes years of paperwork and waiting to get into anything if you aren't a single/battered mother. I paid well over 40% of my income in taxes and had no hope of ever accumulating any assets or meaningful retirement and zero safety net if anything went south for me. My friends in Denmark and Sweden only paid a little bit more for what is effectively a cradle-to-grave nanny state. And they all manage to own their apartments.
- groby_b 3y agoOn the flipside, we have no health insurance when we're laid off, and even getting the sniffles costs a fortune. As for layoffs, last I checked Europe has meaningful worker protections. Neither do we get six weeks of vacation over here. Parental leave (unless you're FAANG) is iffy. Unless you happen to conform to a demographic shape, you'll get treated pretty shittily by everybody, including the state. But if you like living without a net in exchange for high pay, by all means, come over here.
- erulabs 3y agoJust to add a non-snarky reply: I agree, we are lucky, but I fear (especially based on the replies to your statement), the majority of American engineers would prefer things to be more like they are in Europe. "There are dozens of us!" that are aware of how lucky we are!
- 908B64B197 3y agoIs it really luck? Where's the European phone, the European OS. European Cloud? ChatGPT? American engineers and companies provide the bulk of tech's value added. > Whereas in Europe we're lucky to get $80k in the same jobs, and then the state steals half of that :/ Are those really the same jobs?
- UncleMeat 3y agoEuropeans work at all of these companies.
- rcarmo 3y agoAnd they either moved to the US or are putting up with earning less than half what their US counterparts do.
- UncleMeat 3y agoSure. But if you want to complain that europeans don't build these sorts of products as some sort of reason why they should expect lower pay, you need to engage with the fact that people living and working in europe are building these products.
- rcarmo 3y agoThat's not happening on equal terms.
- j0hnyl 3y agoState steals half of ours here in the USA too if you live in a high cost of living city, which many well paid devs do.
- tristan957 3y agoI live in a high cost of living city. Texas has no capital gains tax, no income tax, and I don't own a property (obviously I see this through higher rent at $1450 for a 1x1. I pay the 8.25% sales tax and my highest income tax bracket is 23%. I am nowhere near 50%.
- j0hnyl 3y agoThe highest cost of living city in Texas is not even in the top 10 most high cost of living cities in the US.