8 ms·

FIDE world chess championship decided in rapid tiebreaks

251 points by Geo_ge 3y ago

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
Nepo has brought it on himself, losing that dramatic 12th game while leading in the score with a an unbelievable blunder. Hope he comes back for the next title challenge.
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  Not just a blunder, but a blunder made too quickly when he had plenty of time. If Nepo won a third straight candidates (he's automatically qualified) that would be an extremely impressive achievement that would be a first in world history I believe.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    I wonder if Carlsen will participate. I'm actually rather salty at him for forfeiting the title. If you are a chess champion, you have to defend the title until you lose, or die, whichever happens first. After he had refused to defend the title, it made the title of his successor automatically less worthy. That's bad.
    - blackpill0w 3y ago
      I think I agree with you in that I am too feeling weird that Magnus decided to let go of his title, and unlike others like Bobby Fisher he is still playing chess.
    - NhanH 3y ago
      When the two greatest chess players of all time both have issues with FIDE regarding the world chess championship title, I think it's fair to give both of them the benefit of the doubt: FIDE is probably doing something wrong, in one way or another.
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - mellosouls 3y ago
      It definitely devalues the event and title - we all know that Magnus is the best in the world - but it (the world championship) is starting to look dusty and outdated in the world of streaming successes like Hikaru, ChessBrah, Botez, etc. Chess has moved on significantly since Magnus first became champion (partly due to the man himself). If Fide is struggling to move with it, there will be a limit to what it can ask of its dominant figure in the context of an event that requires huge investment in time, money and energy for participants.
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - mkagenius 3y ago
      Forfeiting is almost like accepting the defeat, not in the ability kind of way but "i can't go through the torture anymore" way ..but yeah it's like you accepted the defeat, so it's okay to assume he lost.
    - throwawaysalome 3y ago
      When you get older, you realize "world champion" is meaningless, and the adjudicating organizations are profit-driven, even if they're legally non-profit (the NFL being the most brazen example).
      - hgsgm 3y ago
        NFL was non profit because it istrade association that serve the (for-profit) teams. It's not a nefarious scheme. They changed it because their customers are vocally stupid.
      - Scarblac 3y ago
        FIDE doesn't make a profit. But the revenue they get from the match (about $1m) is a large part of their budget.
    - oldstrangers 3y ago
      Be mad at FIDE for failing to adapt the match format to something less ridiculous. For years Magnus advocated for changing both the World Championship Cycle and the format of the games (classical, rapid, blitz). FIDE did nothing, as expected. Currently the World Chess Championship is just a collection of very talented chess players spending months having supercomputers evaluate positions looking for the slightest imaginable edge.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        Having watched Karpov/Kasparov battles as a child, I don't think that the match format is ridiculous. I'd only change the tiebreaks rule to use the same time control as the main event.
        oldstrangers 3y ago
        Well yeah, the match format wasn't ridiculous in the 80s and 90s when it was still human prep vs human prep.
        Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        So, now you have computers that show you the best moves, ok. But this knowledge still has to be squeezed into a human brain. So I don't see any problem with the match format. And even 'draw death' talks are laughable after latest candidates tournament and yours championship.
        oldstrangers 3y ago
        Memorizing 20-30 or even 40 lines is next to trivial for a Super GM. And prior to this year with more decisive games, the championship was becoming incredibly stale with every event being decided by tie breaks. And despite how exciting this event was, it was still decided by rapid tiebreaks. So do what Carlsen says, reduce the number of classical games and throw in rapid and blitz, winner takes all. That makes the most sense.
- bananamerica 3y ago
  I love Nepo but I truly believe he should forget about being World Champion anymore. I just can't see the poor dude suffering another time.
davidguetta 3y ago
Thanks to the commentators to make the game accessible to us 1100 elo ><. It's funny because at my level I thought it made 100% sense to decline draw and go Rg6. With two beautiful passed pawns and a bishop in the middle ding had a clear plan and very low risk (to me) to lose while Nepo had to do so many super accurate queen moves to defend... which seemed impossible (to me) in time pressure. It's basically (to me, again) the same problem than the super long game 6 in 2022 against carlsen.
- ninepoints 3y ago
  It was only low risk in hindsight. Yes the two pawns looked good, but the black king wasn't exactly completely secure either.
  - __s 3y ago
    Hence they said (to me) because low elo players are going to underestimate value of activity & king safety
    - ninepoints 3y ago
      Yea that's a fair rebuttal. At higher ELOs, you start to develop a sense of paranoia about the King. For example, opening the center before castling feels very wrong intuitively, and in this case, pinning one of your few remaining pieces against your own King with an envelope of only two pawns is one of those "maybe I should be concerned" types of scenarios.
- bionsystem 3y ago
  Rg6 is an amazing decision (note that I didn't say it's the right one as clearly I wouldn't know). Think about it, after months of preparation and a couple weeks of playing long games, and getting so much pressure, he can take a draw with black and then play blitz. Nobody would have blame him for it. But he realized that he has some chance for pressure, and that Ian has spent his extra time on the clock. So he puts his gloves on for the last fight. Whether or not it is the right strategy, both in this particular game and regarding the situation of the match, it shows incredible courage and fighting spirit. Also earlier in the same game he canceled an attack realizing that he would be overextending and Ian has everything to defend. That is really really hard to do when you are attacking and had an advantage a couple moves ago, to just hold back like that.
alexmolas 3y ago
I didn't expect Ding winning Nepo in the tiebreaks after watching him getting crushed by the pressure and time in previous games. Well played! The last game has been incredible. Watching the world cup being decided in less than 10 minutes was something I didn't expect.
jeremyjh 3y ago
I'm really glad it was decided in rapid if it couldn't be in classical. The first three rapid games were of incredibly high quality, just as good as the best games in Classical in terms of accuracy and much more exciting than you'd think just hearing they were draws. The last game had its ups and downs but seemed to be a clear draw until the very end. Under time-pressure both players made some mistakes but there is no other way for a winner to emerge really.
- ycombinete 3y ago
  As a middling player a draw in Rapid is quite an achievement. Playing that accurately in such a short time control is really so impressive. Especially given the pressure they were exerting on each other during those first three games!
ricochet11 3y ago
A stunning end. those last minutes everyone had assumed it was a draw and Ding had the courage to keep pushing.
- perihelions 3y ago
  The main commentator stream was (reasonably) blindsided by Rg6, with comedic timing. Sachdev: "Rg6 is not a move that you'd consider here, right? It's the only move that I feel with black keeps the game going, but it looks more like a losing move than a winning attempt." Caruana: "If Rg6 is not better for white [Nepomniachtchi], I'd be shocked" Ding: [plays Rg6] https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=16087 https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=16087
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    I do wonder if Fabiano Caruana (the commentator in question, world #7) is going to have some introspection following these events, because that pattern occurred several times during his commentary. He came up with endless (and completely valid) ways for both players to 'kill'/simplify/draw the games at various points, but the players chose far more ambitious routes ultimately culminating in the final game where it decided the world championship. For some context here, Fabiano played a world championship match against Magnus Carlsen. Every single classical game was drawn, and he then lost 0-3 in the tiebreaks. Fabiano plays relatively weaker in faster time controls, whereas Magnus is also the strongest rapid player in the world by a fairly wide margin.
    - srge 3y ago
      I agree as a spectator that draws are boring. However strategically it probably makes sense to draw ambiguous games and only push for a win when you have a certain advantage.
    - kthejoker2 3y ago
      Fabi's 4th in the world in Blitz, dude can play fast. Carlsen is just a beast.
roflyear 3y ago
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SpacePortKnight 3y ago
Super stoked to see what the impact of this would be on the Chinese chess ecosystem and consequently on the chess world. Maybe China will host more chess events and in return we might see more prodigies coming out of China.
KaoruAoiShiho 3y ago
A lot of people (me included) thought this series was dire for Ding after watching him get crushed a few days ago by his opponent Nepo where Ding visibly froze and was in a state of total mental disarray after he couldn't decide on his move, wasted a ton of time, and ended up making a bad move anyways. Commenters said that this was Nepo's strength, even if he doesn't make the absolute greatest move he makes a good enough move relatively quickly compared to his competition and we saw the advantage of that play out. But ironically that game being successful for Nepo's fast style might've cost him the championship in the end as he tried to replicate the time pressure on Ding every game after to pretty poor results. He might've done better if he didn't get such a dramatic victory that game.
- deleted 3y ago
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- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  This is a good point. Ding's time management has actually been excellent in this match besides that one moment where he froze. But that was literally one move. In most of the games he's just close to serious time pressure, but never gets there. He's just very fastidious about actually spending all his time. Ian definitely slowed down in the latter half of the match as well, but he still played too quickly in key positions.
- vikingerik 3y ago
  The "Ding froze" assessment from game 7 was the fake-news media meme but wasn't the reality. He explained it after the fact. He knew what he was doing. He thought his position was lost, so he was calculating everything to look for a line to save a draw with perpetual checks / threefold repetition. He felt he had nothing to lose by expending all his time searching for that since he was going to lose anyway if he didn't find it. He was incorrect in evaluating his position as worse than it was (remember the players don't get the computer analysis numbers), but he wasn't incorrect in his time management stemming from that evaluation. The same went for Nepo's supposed "tilt" in the last WCC match against Carlsen, that was media exaggeration. He lost one game with one mistake, so then had to push into risky positions after that in hopes of catching up, since he had nothing more to lose in match terms. The big discrepancy in score for that match wasn't domination, it was an artifact of the meta-factor of playing for high variance.
mellosouls 3y ago
Meanwhile, Magnus... https://youtube.com/shorts/mNiPUPRt89Q https://youtube.com/shorts/mNiPUPRt89Q
- blackpill0w 3y ago
  He tweeted 30s after Ian resigned though. Edit: https://nitter.net/MagnusCarlsen/status/1652663581542891531#m https://nitter.net/MagnusCarlsen/status/1652663581542891531#...
- Mistletoe 3y ago
  I watch the Botez sisters and even this kind of grosses me out.
  - jyscao 3y ago
    I find Botez sisters obnoxious tbh
    - mellosouls 3y ago
      They've been a massive positive for chess. People (especially young people) aren't being introduced to its excitement and beauty via Ding & Nepo playing loooooooong matches in championships like this. They may go on to watch the world championship after Botez have converted them though.
      - ninepoints 3y ago
        I'm sure they also abetted people losing their savings in FTX though.
        mellosouls 3y ago
        I agree they should stay clear of stuff they haven't done due diligence in, learn from mistakes and hope that money doesn't become the overriding motivator. It is fair to be sceptical though if and when they screw up and don't sincerely acknowledge and apologise.
SpacePortKnight 3y ago
It was amazing to see Ding grow in confidence with each match. Kinda reminded me of Vegeta. I hope Ding will continue to grow and start dominating tournaments just like the previous champion, Magnus.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
Great match by Ding and Ian both, and I honestly think Ding deserves the win in the end. I think Ian got a bit too results oriented and pragmatic towards the end of the match, playing too imprecisely and quickly in key positions and always a little too happy with a draw. Ding was just playing chess. And as often happens in chess, this ended up being the decisive psychological factor. Ian, going for a repetition, And Ding says no, let's play. This seemed to shock Ian so much that he was unable to find the correct moves. Ding was ruthless and punished his mistakes, showcasing his superior calculation(at least in that moment) and concentration.
- deleted 3y ago
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- ycombinete 3y ago
  Yes definitely. Ian must’ve been shifting into draw mode after the first repetition. Hard to adjust again with ~2 minutes on the clock. I think as well that Black had more viable moves as the position continued to develop; Ian on the other hand had to be very accurate. Brilliant from ding really. There’s a reason he’s about 100 Elo points stronger than Ian in Rapid.
  - rgoulter 3y ago
    In the final game, the commentators on the chess.com stream pointed out that Ian could have gone for a draw, but wanted to push on.
    - ycombinete 3y ago
      There were definitely moments in the game where they both had the option, but I am referring specifically to 46. ... Rg6 [0] which occurs after two repetitions of the position, initiated by Ian. [0] https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-2023/tie-breaks/jCs1wd0E/8QvKR1zU#92 https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-...
- Upvoter33 3y ago
specproc 3y ago
It's been a brilliant tournament, absolutely fantastic to follow. Genuinely gripping, exciting stuff with incredible games and lines. Carlsen did us all a favour by stepping back. I don't think the rest of the pack are too far behind these two, we should be seeing a really dynamic, entertaining fight for the top spot over the coming years.
- ttyyzz 3y ago
  I'd rather have the best current player in there. I thought this WCC was rather pointless.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    The chess engines don’t show up either, it seems the competition is fine with only mortals engaging in it.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    What are they supposed to do, not have a world championship? It's happened before when Fischer refused to defend the title. And yet Karpov got the title without having beaten Fischer, who he probably wouldn't have beaten in a match even if Fischer was nutty bananas at the time. But at least he had played a match to win the candidates tournament at the time. This time around, Ian hadn't won a match, and so the match made sense to me, because the world championship is decided by match, not tournament.
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - School-Cotton 3y ago
      > What are they supposed to do, not have a world championship? Yes, that’s a reasonable proposal. Title matches don’t have to happen on a fixed schedule like the Super Bowl, and in the past, they didn’t. They were ad-hoc and happened whenever a worthy contender raised enough prize money to challenge the current champion, who had a lot of leeway in negotiating the format and venue.
trollied 3y ago
chess.com are still streaming if you want to see the analysis coverage: https://www.twitch.tv/chess https://www.twitch.tv/chess
agubelu 3y ago
It was a very exciting WCC, but I feel like something should be done about the post-match press conferences. Many of the questions asked in the most prestigious chess tournament are not even remotely related to the games that were played, and sometimes plainly disrespectful towards the players. The first question right after a new World Champion has been crowned was about the weather.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  It was also extremely odd to me that there was no Chinese press there. Ding's English is not excellent, and to not be able to catch his first moments in his native tongue seems to have been a major failing of the Chinese press.
  - ginnungagap 3y ago
    Ding was offered a translator but insisted on speaking English himself apparently! "He said he didn’t need a translator since, “I feel very comfortable now,” " from https://chess24.com/en/read/news/ding-liren-passes-acid-test-in-world-championship-game-3 https://chess24.com/en/read/news/ding-liren-passes-acid-test...
    - htag 3y ago
      I've seen international competitions where the winner is interviewed by a reporter from their home country in their native language. It can often be a nice touch, and is very different from using a translator to speak to English speaking reports.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Chess isn't really big in China. Maybe will get more popular with Ding now but I'm not holding my breath.
    - mark_l_watson 3y ago
      Chess is huge in China. The women’s world champion and also number two are both Chinese. You are right that Chess is not as popular as Go in China.
sourcecodeplz 3y ago
Congrats champ!
blackpill0w 3y ago
It should be noted that one of the reasons this WCC was exciting is because of Richard Rapport who helped Ding Liren with his preparation, he is well know for being creative with his openings, and his contributions were pretty obvious in games (we even saw a London System), specially that Ding is usually predictable.
- Bostonian 3y ago
  Yes, but I still don't see the point of the 4.h3 novelty, which wastes a move. Ding lost that game badly.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    Weirdly enough, the opening actually turned out okay for Ding there, but instead of plcing Nxc5 with a stable advantage he went for the double edged Nxf6 and he played poorly in that game. Ding had a really bad start though, he really wasn't himself, especially in the first two games. Not sitting at the board much which is very unlike him. I think if Nepo had played something more challenging in game 1 than the exhange variation he would've probably won the game and possibly been able to kill Ding off while he was still settling into the match.
srge 3y ago
I was such an exciting match. It was hard seing Nepo blitz so many bad moves when he often had a comfortable time advantage. Edit: context
CSMastermind 3y ago
This match was super exciting to follow, I would not have predicted this outcome even a few games ago. It really felt like in both the candidates and now here Ding just grinded things out, so props to his mental endurance. I hope they find better journalists to ask questions next around, they rightly got a lot of flack in this one.
ourmandave 3y ago
Spoiler alert! =(
ronnykylin 3y ago
Good to see human beings are still challenging themselves in chess after AlphaGo
- jpgvm 3y ago
  Ironically engines made the game better IMO.
  - ronnykylin 3y ago
    Hopefully engines make the game more fun for humans. >_-
    - jpgvm 3y ago
      I think they have, depends on what level you play at. I'm a lowly 1400-1500 rated player so I'm not using engines to prepare the sorts of crazy lines you see in a WCC but they help me understand when a position has outs/things to play for and/or quickly identify when a winning line was available. i.e I mostly use it for post-game analysis and it's been really good. I don't have the sort of money to pay for 1:1 chess mentorship so engine is the next best thing. I derive my enjoyment in chess from improving, engines help me improve ergo engines make chess more enjoyable for me.
      - ronnykylin 3y ago
        Yep, I use ChatGPT the same way. It is the next best thing to a human mentor when I need to quickly grasp a new concept.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  AlphaGo plays go, not chess. Computers have crushed humans at chess for 20+ years.
  - ronnykylin 3y ago
    Good to know, thanks. And yet we are still celebrating human victory in chess. Tears again.
perihelions 3y ago
Here's the decisive tiebreaker to anyone who didn't watch it: https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=12404 https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=12404 (3:26:44 – 4:38:10) https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-2023/tie-breaks/jCs1wd0E https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-... (just the moves)
univalent 3y ago
Congrats to Ding but brutal for Nepo. Had a winning position in game 12, and rushed that move in game 14 when Rc3? would have been winning. Winning the candidates tournament twice is such a huge feat, not sure if he can win again to challenge.
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
Alternative replay: https://lichess.org/study/SkQqKSso https://lichess.org/study/SkQqKSso
light_hue_1 3y ago
It's absurd that the classical world chess champion is decided by rapid games. This keeps happening: 2012, 2016, 2018, 2023. For over a decade most of the classical world chess champions were decided by their ability to play rapid. It's time to reform FIDE. The world chess championship is languishing, barely getting any news attention or coverage. Just kill this failed format and play rapid. The games are much more engaging for viewers. We could maybe actually get people to watch chess!
lumb63 3y ago
Does anyone have tips on how to watch chess? I got pretty into chess during lockdown. I read several books on the subject, was playing a few hours each day. I had friends who got into it as well, and they would watch the tournaments and high profile matches, but I couldn't enjoy them. I didn't feel like I understood the game enough, and the commentary sometimes went over my head/went by too quickly. Anyone been in the same situation?
- saganus 3y ago
  You can watch chess streamers like Gothan Chess and similar. It makes games more aproachable to some degree.
- treme 3y ago
  Highly recommend Chessnetwork vids https://youtube.com/@ChessNetwork https://youtube.com/@ChessNetwork
- binarymax 3y ago
  The thing about watching chess that’s different from other games, is that it’s not obvious to inexperienced players when important things happen and why. The only way is to increase your skill level. I played for years before I could appreciate a live game played at the IM or GM level. At tournaments there’s typically a watch room with a board and a proctor that tries different lines and variations on the position. If you didn’t understand something then playing out the line would help understand the motivation. Not sure if there’s a good proxy for that now, since honestly I haven’t played much since the advent of chess AI started offering far better analysis than a kibbitz room. But maybe there’s some software that can help with the explanation now. But practicing is the only way to understand it. So if youre interested, keep at it!
  - xapata 3y ago
    I think many games have important events that aren't obvious to inexperienced players/spectators. In football/soccer, for example, off-the-ball movement is very important, but usually ignored by inexperienced players.
mark_l_watson 3y ago
Congratulations to both players for providing us with so many decisive and interesting games! Particular congratulations to Ding! I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape. Off topic, but I 100% support Magnus’s decision to do what he enjoys: playing in tournaments and not time spent preparing for world championship matches. Good for him understanding what is most important to him, and acting on it.
- hacym 3y ago
  That decision is made a lot easier once you've been on top five times and no matter what happens in the championship you're not participating in, everyone knows you're still the GOAT.
- viraj_shah 3y ago
  "I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape." Sometimes...you meet the most interesting people on here!
- QuantumGood 3y ago
  I finished in-the-money in the Open in 1982, which hooked me a bit, and I also later played in the World Open and finished in-the-money in the New York open. For NY, had to live in Manhattan for two weeks, play 6 days, one day off, then 6 more days, several hours each day. I wouldn't have been able to remotely afford it, but my cousin was out of town for two weeks, and let me stay at her place. Taking two weeks off for an open Chess tournament seems insane to today's player's brought up on blitz, rapid, bullet and hyper-bullet (which I confess I enjoy a lot myself).
new2yc 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Taking HN threads into flamewar will get you banned here, so please don't do it again. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
rvba 3y ago
Does the world championship use any detectors to check if participants arent cheating? Via some communication device, sounds, lights etc. that would tell moves taken from a computer or a set of helpers? Alternatively someone could put some device inside their body. Are the participants scanned somehow?
- notreallyauser 3y ago
  There is security beforehand. Not seen specifics on this event, but metal detector arches have been part of it in other events. The playing hall is, I think, essentially closed after the start of the match.
Bostonian 3y ago
I don't think Ding is quite at Carlsen's level, but maybe being World Champion will inspire him to get even better. I wish someone would sponsor an unofficial match between Ding and Carlsen. Only FIDE can organize an official match for the title.

251 points by Geo_ge 3y ago

Nepo has brought it on himself, losing that dramatic 12th game while leading in the score with a an unbelievable blunder. Hope he comes back for the next title challenge.

jeremyjh 3y ago
Not just a blunder, but a blunder made too quickly when he had plenty of time. If Nepo won a third straight candidates (he's automatically qualified) that would be an extremely impressive achievement that would be a first in world history I believe.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  I wonder if Carlsen will participate. I'm actually rather salty at him for forfeiting the title. If you are a chess champion, you have to defend the title until you lose, or die, whichever happens first. After he had refused to defend the title, it made the title of his successor automatically less worthy. That's bad.
  - blackpill0w 3y ago
    I think I agree with you in that I am too feeling weird that Magnus decided to let go of his title, and unlike others like Bobby Fisher he is still playing chess.
  - NhanH 3y ago
    When the two greatest chess players of all time both have issues with FIDE regarding the world chess championship title, I think it's fair to give both of them the benefit of the doubt: FIDE is probably doing something wrong, in one way or another.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - mellosouls 3y ago
    It definitely devalues the event and title - we all know that Magnus is the best in the world - but it (the world championship) is starting to look dusty and outdated in the world of streaming successes like Hikaru, ChessBrah, Botez, etc. Chess has moved on significantly since Magnus first became champion (partly due to the man himself). If Fide is struggling to move with it, there will be a limit to what it can ask of its dominant figure in the context of an event that requires huge investment in time, money and energy for participants.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - mkagenius 3y ago
    Forfeiting is almost like accepting the defeat, not in the ability kind of way but "i can't go through the torture anymore" way ..but yeah it's like you accepted the defeat, so it's okay to assume he lost.
  - throwawaysalome 3y ago
    When you get older, you realize "world champion" is meaningless, and the adjudicating organizations are profit-driven, even if they're legally non-profit (the NFL being the most brazen example).
    - hgsgm 3y ago
      NFL was non profit because it istrade association that serve the (for-profit) teams. It's not a nefarious scheme. They changed it because their customers are vocally stupid.
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      FIDE doesn't make a profit. But the revenue they get from the match (about $1m) is a large part of their budget.
  - oldstrangers 3y ago
    Be mad at FIDE for failing to adapt the match format to something less ridiculous. For years Magnus advocated for changing both the World Championship Cycle and the format of the games (classical, rapid, blitz). FIDE did nothing, as expected. Currently the World Chess Championship is just a collection of very talented chess players spending months having supercomputers evaluate positions looking for the slightest imaginable edge.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
      Having watched Karpov/Kasparov battles as a child, I don't think that the match format is ridiculous. I'd only change the tiebreaks rule to use the same time control as the main event.
      - oldstrangers 3y ago
        Well yeah, the match format wasn't ridiculous in the 80s and 90s when it was still human prep vs human prep.
        Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        So, now you have computers that show you the best moves, ok. But this knowledge still has to be squeezed into a human brain. So I don't see any problem with the match format. And even 'draw death' talks are laughable after latest candidates tournament and yours championship.
        oldstrangers 3y ago
        Memorizing 20-30 or even 40 lines is next to trivial for a Super GM. And prior to this year with more decisive games, the championship was becoming incredibly stale with every event being decided by tie breaks. And despite how exciting this event was, it was still decided by rapid tiebreaks. So do what Carlsen says, reduce the number of classical games and throw in rapid and blitz, winner takes all. That makes the most sense.
bananamerica 3y ago
I love Nepo but I truly believe he should forget about being World Champion anymore. I just can't see the poor dude suffering another time.

davidguetta 3y ago

Thanks to the commentators to make the game accessible to us 1100 elo ><. It's funny because at my level I thought it made 100% sense to decline draw and go Rg6. With two beautiful passed pawns and a bishop in the middle ding had a clear plan and very low risk (to me) to lose while Nepo had to do so many super accurate queen moves to defend... which seemed impossible (to me) in time pressure. It's basically (to me, again) the same problem than the super long game 6 in 2022 against carlsen.

ninepoints 3y ago
It was only low risk in hindsight. Yes the two pawns looked good, but the black king wasn't exactly completely secure either.
- __s 3y ago
  Hence they said (to me) because low elo players are going to underestimate value of activity & king safety
  - ninepoints 3y ago
    Yea that's a fair rebuttal. At higher ELOs, you start to develop a sense of paranoia about the King. For example, opening the center before castling feels very wrong intuitively, and in this case, pinning one of your few remaining pieces against your own King with an envelope of only two pawns is one of those "maybe I should be concerned" types of scenarios.
bionsystem 3y ago
Rg6 is an amazing decision (note that I didn't say it's the right one as clearly I wouldn't know). Think about it, after months of preparation and a couple weeks of playing long games, and getting so much pressure, he can take a draw with black and then play blitz. Nobody would have blame him for it. But he realized that he has some chance for pressure, and that Ian has spent his extra time on the clock. So he puts his gloves on for the last fight. Whether or not it is the right strategy, both in this particular game and regarding the situation of the match, it shows incredible courage and fighting spirit. Also earlier in the same game he canceled an attack realizing that he would be overextending and Ian has everything to defend. That is really really hard to do when you are attacking and had an advantage a couple moves ago, to just hold back like that.

alexmolas 3y ago

I didn't expect Ding winning Nepo in the tiebreaks after watching him getting crushed by the pressure and time in previous games. Well played! The last game has been incredible. Watching the world cup being decided in less than 10 minutes was something I didn't expect.

jeremyjh 3y ago

I'm really glad it was decided in rapid if it couldn't be in classical. The first three rapid games were of incredibly high quality, just as good as the best games in Classical in terms of accuracy and much more exciting than you'd think just hearing they were draws. The last game had its ups and downs but seemed to be a clear draw until the very end. Under time-pressure both players made some mistakes but there is no other way for a winner to emerge really.

ycombinete 3y ago
As a middling player a draw in Rapid is quite an achievement. Playing that accurately in such a short time control is really so impressive. Especially given the pressure they were exerting on each other during those first three games!

ricochet11 3y ago

A stunning end. those last minutes everyone had assumed it was a draw and Ding had the courage to keep pushing.

perihelions 3y ago
The main commentator stream was (reasonably) blindsided by Rg6, with comedic timing. Sachdev: "Rg6 is not a move that you'd consider here, right? It's the only move that I feel with black keeps the game going, but it looks more like a losing move than a winning attempt." Caruana: "If Rg6 is not better for white [Nepomniachtchi], I'd be shocked" Ding: [plays Rg6] https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=16087 https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=16087
- somenameforme 3y ago
  I do wonder if Fabiano Caruana (the commentator in question, world #7) is going to have some introspection following these events, because that pattern occurred several times during his commentary. He came up with endless (and completely valid) ways for both players to 'kill'/simplify/draw the games at various points, but the players chose far more ambitious routes ultimately culminating in the final game where it decided the world championship. For some context here, Fabiano played a world championship match against Magnus Carlsen. Every single classical game was drawn, and he then lost 0-3 in the tiebreaks. Fabiano plays relatively weaker in faster time controls, whereas Magnus is also the strongest rapid player in the world by a fairly wide margin.
  - srge 3y ago
    I agree as a spectator that draws are boring. However strategically it probably makes sense to draw ambiguous games and only push for a win when you have a certain advantage.
  - kthejoker2 3y ago
    Fabi's 4th in the world in Blitz, dude can play fast. Carlsen is just a beast.

roflyear 3y ago

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SpacePortKnight 3y ago

Super stoked to see what the impact of this would be on the Chinese chess ecosystem and consequently on the chess world. Maybe China will host more chess events and in return we might see more prodigies coming out of China.

KaoruAoiShiho 3y ago

A lot of people (me included) thought this series was dire for Ding after watching him get crushed a few days ago by his opponent Nepo where Ding visibly froze and was in a state of total mental disarray after he couldn't decide on his move, wasted a ton of time, and ended up making a bad move anyways. Commenters said that this was Nepo's strength, even if he doesn't make the absolute greatest move he makes a good enough move relatively quickly compared to his competition and we saw the advantage of that play out. But ironically that game being successful for Nepo's fast style might've cost him the championship in the end as he tried to replicate the time pressure on Ding every game after to pretty poor results. He might've done better if he didn't get such a dramatic victory that game.

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mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
This is a good point. Ding's time management has actually been excellent in this match besides that one moment where he froze. But that was literally one move. In most of the games he's just close to serious time pressure, but never gets there. He's just very fastidious about actually spending all his time. Ian definitely slowed down in the latter half of the match as well, but he still played too quickly in key positions.
vikingerik 3y ago
The "Ding froze" assessment from game 7 was the fake-news media meme but wasn't the reality. He explained it after the fact. He knew what he was doing. He thought his position was lost, so he was calculating everything to look for a line to save a draw with perpetual checks / threefold repetition. He felt he had nothing to lose by expending all his time searching for that since he was going to lose anyway if he didn't find it. He was incorrect in evaluating his position as worse than it was (remember the players don't get the computer analysis numbers), but he wasn't incorrect in his time management stemming from that evaluation. The same went for Nepo's supposed "tilt" in the last WCC match against Carlsen, that was media exaggeration. He lost one game with one mistake, so then had to push into risky positions after that in hopes of catching up, since he had nothing more to lose in match terms. The big discrepancy in score for that match wasn't domination, it was an artifact of the meta-factor of playing for high variance.

mellosouls 3y ago

Meanwhile, Magnus... https://youtube.com/shorts/mNiPUPRt89Q https://youtube.com/shorts/mNiPUPRt89Q

blackpill0w 3y ago
He tweeted 30s after Ian resigned though. Edit: https://nitter.net/MagnusCarlsen/status/1652663581542891531#m https://nitter.net/MagnusCarlsen/status/1652663581542891531#...
Mistletoe 3y ago
I watch the Botez sisters and even this kind of grosses me out.
- jyscao 3y ago
  I find Botez sisters obnoxious tbh
  - mellosouls 3y ago
    They've been a massive positive for chess. People (especially young people) aren't being introduced to its excitement and beauty via Ding & Nepo playing loooooooong matches in championships like this. They may go on to watch the world championship after Botez have converted them though.
    - ninepoints 3y ago
      I'm sure they also abetted people losing their savings in FTX though.
      - mellosouls 3y ago
        I agree they should stay clear of stuff they haven't done due diligence in, learn from mistakes and hope that money doesn't become the overriding motivator. It is fair to be sceptical though if and when they screw up and don't sincerely acknowledge and apologise.

SpacePortKnight 3y ago

It was amazing to see Ding grow in confidence with each match. Kinda reminded me of Vegeta. I hope Ding will continue to grow and start dominating tournaments just like the previous champion, Magnus.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

Great match by Ding and Ian both, and I honestly think Ding deserves the win in the end. I think Ian got a bit too results oriented and pragmatic towards the end of the match, playing too imprecisely and quickly in key positions and always a little too happy with a draw. Ding was just playing chess. And as often happens in chess, this ended up being the decisive psychological factor. Ian, going for a repetition, And Ding says no, let's play. This seemed to shock Ian so much that he was unable to find the correct moves. Ding was ruthless and punished his mistakes, showcasing his superior calculation(at least in that moment) and concentration.

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ycombinete 3y ago
Yes definitely. Ian must’ve been shifting into draw mode after the first repetition. Hard to adjust again with ~2 minutes on the clock. I think as well that Black had more viable moves as the position continued to develop; Ian on the other hand had to be very accurate. Brilliant from ding really. There’s a reason he’s about 100 Elo points stronger than Ian in Rapid.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  In the final game, the commentators on the chess.com stream pointed out that Ian could have gone for a draw, but wanted to push on.
  - ycombinete 3y ago
    There were definitely moments in the game where they both had the option, but I am referring specifically to 46. ... Rg6 [0] which occurs after two repetitions of the position, initiated by Ian. [0] https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-2023/tie-breaks/jCs1wd0E/8QvKR1zU#92 https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-...
Upvoter33 3y ago

specproc 3y ago

It's been a brilliant tournament, absolutely fantastic to follow. Genuinely gripping, exciting stuff with incredible games and lines. Carlsen did us all a favour by stepping back. I don't think the rest of the pack are too far behind these two, we should be seeing a really dynamic, entertaining fight for the top spot over the coming years.

ttyyzz 3y ago
I'd rather have the best current player in there. I thought this WCC was rather pointless.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  The chess engines don’t show up either, it seems the competition is fine with only mortals engaging in it.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  What are they supposed to do, not have a world championship? It's happened before when Fischer refused to defend the title. And yet Karpov got the title without having beaten Fischer, who he probably wouldn't have beaten in a match even if Fischer was nutty bananas at the time. But at least he had played a match to win the candidates tournament at the time. This time around, Ian hadn't won a match, and so the match made sense to me, because the world championship is decided by match, not tournament.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    > What are they supposed to do, not have a world championship? Yes, that’s a reasonable proposal. Title matches don’t have to happen on a fixed schedule like the Super Bowl, and in the past, they didn’t. They were ad-hoc and happened whenever a worthy contender raised enough prize money to challenge the current champion, who had a lot of leeway in negotiating the format and venue.

trollied 3y ago

chess.com are still streaming if you want to see the analysis coverage: https://www.twitch.tv/chess https://www.twitch.tv/chess

agubelu 3y ago

It was a very exciting WCC, but I feel like something should be done about the post-match press conferences. Many of the questions asked in the most prestigious chess tournament are not even remotely related to the games that were played, and sometimes plainly disrespectful towards the players. The first question right after a new World Champion has been crowned was about the weather.

somenameforme 3y ago
It was also extremely odd to me that there was no Chinese press there. Ding's English is not excellent, and to not be able to catch his first moments in his native tongue seems to have been a major failing of the Chinese press.
- ginnungagap 3y ago
  Ding was offered a translator but insisted on speaking English himself apparently! "He said he didn’t need a translator since, “I feel very comfortable now,” " from https://chess24.com/en/read/news/ding-liren-passes-acid-test-in-world-championship-game-3 https://chess24.com/en/read/news/ding-liren-passes-acid-test...
  - htag 3y ago
    I've seen international competitions where the winner is interviewed by a reporter from their home country in their native language. It can often be a nice touch, and is very different from using a translator to speak to English speaking reports.
- kelipso 3y ago
  Chess isn't really big in China. Maybe will get more popular with Ding now but I'm not holding my breath.
  - mark_l_watson 3y ago
    Chess is huge in China. The women’s world champion and also number two are both Chinese. You are right that Chess is not as popular as Go in China.

sourcecodeplz 3y ago

Congrats champ!

blackpill0w 3y ago

It should be noted that one of the reasons this WCC was exciting is because of Richard Rapport who helped Ding Liren with his preparation, he is well know for being creative with his openings, and his contributions were pretty obvious in games (we even saw a London System), specially that Ding is usually predictable.

Bostonian 3y ago
Yes, but I still don't see the point of the 4.h3 novelty, which wastes a move. Ding lost that game badly.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Weirdly enough, the opening actually turned out okay for Ding there, but instead of plcing Nxc5 with a stable advantage he went for the double edged Nxf6 and he played poorly in that game. Ding had a really bad start though, he really wasn't himself, especially in the first two games. Not sitting at the board much which is very unlike him. I think if Nepo had played something more challenging in game 1 than the exhange variation he would've probably won the game and possibly been able to kill Ding off while he was still settling into the match.

srge 3y ago

I was such an exciting match. It was hard seing Nepo blitz so many bad moves when he often had a comfortable time advantage. Edit: context

CSMastermind 3y ago

This match was super exciting to follow, I would not have predicted this outcome even a few games ago. It really felt like in both the candidates and now here Ding just grinded things out, so props to his mental endurance. I hope they find better journalists to ask questions next around, they rightly got a lot of flack in this one.

ourmandave 3y ago

Spoiler alert! =(

ronnykylin 3y ago

Good to see human beings are still challenging themselves in chess after AlphaGo

jpgvm 3y ago
Ironically engines made the game better IMO.
- ronnykylin 3y ago
  Hopefully engines make the game more fun for humans. >_-
  - jpgvm 3y ago
    I think they have, depends on what level you play at. I'm a lowly 1400-1500 rated player so I'm not using engines to prepare the sorts of crazy lines you see in a WCC but they help me understand when a position has outs/things to play for and/or quickly identify when a winning line was available. i.e I mostly use it for post-game analysis and it's been really good. I don't have the sort of money to pay for 1:1 chess mentorship so engine is the next best thing. I derive my enjoyment in chess from improving, engines help me improve ergo engines make chess more enjoyable for me.
    - ronnykylin 3y ago
      Yep, I use ChatGPT the same way. It is the next best thing to a human mentor when I need to quickly grasp a new concept.
School-Cotton 3y ago
AlphaGo plays go, not chess. Computers have crushed humans at chess for 20+ years.
- ronnykylin 3y ago
  Good to know, thanks. And yet we are still celebrating human victory in chess. Tears again.

perihelions 3y ago

Here's the decisive tiebreaker to anyone who didn't watch it: https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=12404 https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=12404 (3:26:44 – 4:38:10) https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-2023/tie-breaks/jCs1wd0E https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-... (just the moves)

univalent 3y ago

Congrats to Ding but brutal for Nepo. Had a winning position in game 12, and rushed that move in game 14 when Rc3? would have been winning. Winning the candidates tournament twice is such a huge feat, not sure if he can win again to challenge.

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

Alternative replay: https://lichess.org/study/SkQqKSso https://lichess.org/study/SkQqKSso

light_hue_1 3y ago

It's absurd that the classical world chess champion is decided by rapid games. This keeps happening: 2012, 2016, 2018, 2023. For over a decade most of the classical world chess champions were decided by their ability to play rapid. It's time to reform FIDE. The world chess championship is languishing, barely getting any news attention or coverage. Just kill this failed format and play rapid. The games are much more engaging for viewers. We could maybe actually get people to watch chess!

lumb63 3y ago

Does anyone have tips on how to watch chess? I got pretty into chess during lockdown. I read several books on the subject, was playing a few hours each day. I had friends who got into it as well, and they would watch the tournaments and high profile matches, but I couldn't enjoy them. I didn't feel like I understood the game enough, and the commentary sometimes went over my head/went by too quickly. Anyone been in the same situation?

saganus 3y ago
You can watch chess streamers like Gothan Chess and similar. It makes games more aproachable to some degree.
treme 3y ago
Highly recommend Chessnetwork vids https://youtube.com/@ChessNetwork https://youtube.com/@ChessNetwork
binarymax 3y ago
The thing about watching chess that’s different from other games, is that it’s not obvious to inexperienced players when important things happen and why. The only way is to increase your skill level. I played for years before I could appreciate a live game played at the IM or GM level. At tournaments there’s typically a watch room with a board and a proctor that tries different lines and variations on the position. If you didn’t understand something then playing out the line would help understand the motivation. Not sure if there’s a good proxy for that now, since honestly I haven’t played much since the advent of chess AI started offering far better analysis than a kibbitz room. But maybe there’s some software that can help with the explanation now. But practicing is the only way to understand it. So if youre interested, keep at it!
- xapata 3y ago
  I think many games have important events that aren't obvious to inexperienced players/spectators. In football/soccer, for example, off-the-ball movement is very important, but usually ignored by inexperienced players.

mark_l_watson 3y ago

Congratulations to both players for providing us with so many decisive and interesting games! Particular congratulations to Ding! I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape. Off topic, but I 100% support Magnus’s decision to do what he enjoys: playing in tournaments and not time spent preparing for world championship matches. Good for him understanding what is most important to him, and acting on it.

hacym 3y ago
That decision is made a lot easier once you've been on top five times and no matter what happens in the championship you're not participating in, everyone knows you're still the GOAT.
viraj_shah 3y ago
"I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape." Sometimes...you meet the most interesting people on here!
QuantumGood 3y ago
I finished in-the-money in the Open in 1982, which hooked me a bit, and I also later played in the World Open and finished in-the-money in the New York open. For NY, had to live in Manhattan for two weeks, play 6 days, one day off, then 6 more days, several hours each day. I wouldn't have been able to remotely afford it, but my cousin was out of town for two weeks, and let me stay at her place. Taking two weeks off for an open Chess tournament seems insane to today's player's brought up on blitz, rapid, bullet and hyper-bullet (which I confess I enjoy a lot myself).

new2yc 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
Taking HN threads into flamewar will get you banned here, so please don't do it again. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

rvba 3y ago

Does the world championship use any detectors to check if participants arent cheating? Via some communication device, sounds, lights etc. that would tell moves taken from a computer or a set of helpers? Alternatively someone could put some device inside their body. Are the participants scanned somehow?

notreallyauser 3y ago
There is security beforehand. Not seen specifics on this event, but metal detector arches have been part of it in other events. The playing hall is, I think, essentially closed after the start of the match.

Bostonian 3y ago

I don't think Ding is quite at Carlsen's level, but maybe being World Champion will inspire him to get even better. I wish someone would sponsor an unofficial match between Ding and Carlsen. Only FIDE can organize an official match for the title.