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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis
- spindle 4y agohttps://archive.is/DILqp https://archive.is/DILqp
- newaccount2021 4y ago[dead]
- ProjectArcturis 4y agoWhole lotta nothing.
- 4gotunameagain 4y agoI like the wishful thinking, even if I think it is impossible that china believes statements such as: 2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one's own security at the cost of others' security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent. , but this text contains zero solutions or suggestions in order to reach one.
- 0xDEF 4y agoThe Russian leadership's pre-war speeches and essays stated that Ukraine is not a legitimate country and that Ukraine was unfairly carved out of Russian. This is based on a widespread Russian belief that the Ukrainian identity was created by Poland and the Austro-Hungarian Empire to divide Russia. China and American Conservatives are an demanding immediate halt of Western support for Ukraine followed by "peace talks". What exactly is there to talk about when Russia doesn't even recognize Ukraine's right to exist?
- s1artibartfast 4y agoThis is indeed the most interesting part. >The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The most clear interpretation of this section is a condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. NATO is the "military bloc" described here. A military bloc is a military alliance of states. Russia invading Ukraine isn't a "strengthening or expansion" of the Russian military bloc. NATO alliance Ukraine clearly advances the security of the EU and Ukraine itself.
- thevagrant 4y agoThat doesnt make sense. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Also NATO is a defensive alliance. It seems some countries don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?
- s1artibartfast 4y agoNATO declared that Ukraine could be part of the alliance 6 months before the invasion and Russia immediately started their troop build up. You could argue that NATO is a defensive Alliance but much of the world does not view it that way. The US uses NATO bases for every war it conducts and houses nuclear and non-nuclear missiles and in NATO countries. Independent of whether you think NATO is a defensive Alliance, this statement condemns the expansion of alliances even for the purpose of increasing security of the Allied countries. It states it quite plainly that it opposes defensive alliances too
- yogthos 4y agoIt's utterly dishonest to argue that NATO is a defensive alliance in the face of the fact that NATO has been regularly invading countries for many decades. Yugoslavia, Libya, Afghanistan, and Syria are just a few examples.
- thevagrant 4y agoI couldn't find reference to NATO involvement in Syria. Perhaps you mistake countries who are part of NATO to being NATO itself? "just a few examples".. I expect there are lots more examples you can give? Especially if your point is that NATO is not a defensive alliance and is used to invade and gain territory.
- 2devnull 4y agoI think this is commendable. Of course talk is cheap, but silence can be deadly. I hope that the usual people who live on a steady information diet of MSNBC, CNN and FOX news see this statement and hold western leadership accountable for making their own statements, and acting in support of, peaceful reconciliation.
- clouddrover 4y agoPeaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.
- 4gotunameagain 4y agoso.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc
- lispm 4y ago> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.
- roundandround 4y ago> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option. And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago> China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Given that Russia has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council with veto power, this is basically making it impossible to sanction Russia.
- 0xDEF 4y agoThe Russian government's pre-war speeches and essays revealed that they consider all of Ukraine to be an illegitimate state that was unfairly carved out of Russia. They are not just talking about Donbas and Crimea. Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. Meanwhile Russian officials all the way up to Putin himself have been hinting or outright stating that the war is about annexing all of Ukraine.
- clouddrover 4y ago> Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. No one thinks that.
- reducesuffering 4y agoThe chief twit with 130 million followers thinks that... "Ukraine-Russia Peace: - Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people. - Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake). - Water supply to Crimea assured. - Ukraine remains neutral." That's clearly: If Ukraine gives away Donbas and Crimea, Russia will leave. There seems to be millions of twits that have forgotten that Russia assaulted Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, Chernihiv, and Sumy oblasts https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000
- clouddrover 4y agoAn attention-seeking lightweight pontificating on Twitter is no one.
- Kon5ole 4y agoMostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions, such as starting wars. So the long-term solution to problems like these is to get rid of all dictatorships, as peacefully as possible but with strong determination. I'd like to see a UDN - a united democratic nations. The base rules should be that no country that has had the same person in the top two political positions of power for more than a decade can be part of the UDN and there should be steep barriers for trade with non-UDN nations. This should be done while democratic countries still have the largest economies in the world, after that it's too late.
- yogthos 4y agoI'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-say-people-98686 https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.com/event/2021/who-runs-the-cpc/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/event/2021/who-runs-the-cpc/index.html This is a good overview of how the party is structured, and how people participate in the governing process. This is fundamentally different from how electoral parties work in western countries. https://news.cgtn.com/event/2019/whorunschina/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/event/2019/whorunschina/index.html The party in China is predominantly composed of working class people as opposed to a ruling political class as seen in the west. This goes a long way in helping ensure that the interests of the government align with the interests of the working majority http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/ http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/ Furthermore, a study spanning many decades of US policy shows that US can hardly be called a democracy in practical terms: What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
- magwa101 4y agoSounds like they're into the russians leaving, well done China, well done.
- haunter 4y agoRead this in the context of Taiwan
- s1artibartfast 4y agoIt seems like most people in this thread missing the point of this statement. Section 2 is a clear condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. >The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. I don't think there is any other way to read this. Russia is not expanding a military Bloc. A "military bloc" is a set of countries with military alliance. This is perfectly in line with China's historic perspective on the issue.
- thevagrant 4y agoAgain, Ukraine isn't part of NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance. So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago>So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves? Absolutely not, and especially so if those neighbors were aligning with the USA. Do you think China would be excited about Taiwan or Mongolia forming a military alliance with the USA? Even if it is defensive? Read point 2. It clearly condemns defensive Alliances. “The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs.“ ... “All parties should oppose the pursuit of one's own security at the cost of others' security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.“ I can't think of another way to read this
- thevagrant 4y agoIt's a weak argument when the aggressor invaded. If we go with that line of thinking, then Russia "invaded" to "defend themselves". Should we complain about homeowners installing locks and security cameras on their houses? “The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs.“ Perhaps then China doesn't need to build military bases in South China Sea?
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