7 ms·

Born and raised in Monaco here. The article paints a very incomplete picture, told from the minority standpoint of mostly wealthy socialites and residents. Ther

Born and raised in Monaco here. The article paints a very incomplete picture, told from the minority standpoint of mostly wealthy socialites and residents. There are also about 50K people commuting into Monaco daily from neighboring cities (Nice, Cannes, La Turbie, Beausoleil, etc.) who are just middle-class wage workers, and who form the bulk of Monaco's active population. In the daytime, Monaco is mostly alive from their presence, as they outnumber residents. At night, well, Monaco isn't very much alive at all. Many if not most of the wealthy residents who can afford the insane real estate prices also own multiple properties worldwide (London, NYC, Lugano, Singapore, etc.), and shuttle between them all year round, so they aren't even there permanently. Monaco is only a fiscal residence for many of them. Beyond the surface-level glitz, e.g. the Formula 1 and the fancy cars parked in front of the Casino, what's interesting is that the little old unassuming lady in sweatpants walking her dog in the morning may actually be a multi-billionaire, and you wouldn't be able to tell. Lot of old money that likes to keep to itself, as opposed to nouveaux riches who like to flaunt.

ggm 4y ago
This is analogous to Singapore, with a huge army of workers resident in Malaysia crossing over every day, and most returning every night. Hong Kong is somewhat similar but less so: there is enough cheap housing for a significant proportion of the cheaper labour (below millionaire class) to live in the economies boundaries. The article does make it clear that Monegasques have significant state support for housing but that's on the assumption they aren't millionaires. The mobile workforce from outside is presumably given one of two "perks" -lower taxation outcomes (although I suspect there is some bilateral tax treaty) for at least income tax, and higher pay than they'd get working in their domicile. I'm trying to steer clear of approval or disapproval writing this. I can't imagine making either of the two choices: to be a tax exile living there but with no statehood, or to be a mobile worker working there but having to return to an EU economy every night. The third option, being Monegasque is not open to me any more than Maltese citizenship, which is also much sought, and hard to get although not as hard as this one. A surprising number of british working class people have Maltese citizenship, similarly Gibraltarian: thats what the british Navy does for you. I wonder if in millionaires row their advice for non-dom includes "marry a maltese"
- teedeepee 4y ago
  Most Monegasques are by and large not millionaires, but they are indeed taken care of by the welfare state very very well. However, they barely make up 25% of the residents, so they are overshadowed by the wealthier foreigners who set up residence in Monaco. Re: the mobile workforce, there's a tax treaty between Monaco and France (which was imposed by the latter after a total blockade of the former in the 1960s) by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco. People who set up fiscal residence in Monaco to avoid taxes are, therefore, not French.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    > by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. It's almost as if there's an agenda for a double standard here, where the system is rigged against the peasantry and for the benefit of wealthy elites. Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now.
    - airtonix 4y ago
    - shakow 4y ago
      1960's French government and current days French governments did not really have the same mindset on many subjects.
    - 4y ago
throwaway1777 4y ago
London, NYC, Lugano, Singapore. Wait… Lugano? I mean I know it’s a nice city in Switzerland but?
- tsunamifury 4y ago
  Substitute lake como but Swiss side.
  - paganel 4y ago
    Plus all the multi-millionaires from nearby Northern Italy (one of the most industrialised regions in Europe until quite recently, and still one of the wealthiest) hiding their wealth in there. Them and Mina, the famous singer [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_(Italian_singer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_(Italian_singer)
  - martopix 4y ago
    Lugano is not on lake Como.
    - tsunamifury 4y ago
      Yea that’s why I said substitute as a concept.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Lugano is a common target for tax exiles who wants something low profile, so it's full of rich people from all over Europe.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  They could have added Jackson Hole, Wyoming to the list and it would seem equally strange. Kind of a small town with billionaires that you don't really know about unless you've either been there or read specifically about it. In Canada I'm not aware of any rich people small towns (unless you consider Vancouver, West Vancouver, or Toronto, or the Shaunhessy neighbourhood of Vancouver), but there is the Muskoka area of Ontario where Kevin O'Leary's wife recently smashed her boat into and killed someone
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> the little old unassuming lady in sweatpants walking her dog in the morning may actually be a multi-billionaire, and you wouldn't be able to tell. why doesn't she hire a dog walker then? /s
- TaylorGood 4y ago
  UHNW doesn't inherently mean rescinding fulfillment :)
- polotics 4y ago
  Because her doctors at the Parc Impérial told her to do this much walking and are plugged-in to her watch, of course.
nathanvanfleet 4y ago
Rich people love to distinguish between old and new rich. Am I supposed to somehow be impressed by this? Old rich just use their money for pleasure and status like new rich do, they just have different more obtuse ways to do it.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  I think the implication is that “old money” has aristocratic roots and thus, “noble blood”. Just plain old chauvinism and bigotry, but now applied to billionaires too.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- TotoHorner 4y ago
  They’re incredibly smug about it too, as if getting born with a silver spoon in your mouth is somehow far more commendable?
  - ergocoder 4y ago
    Old rich also likely earned their wealth in a lot more unethical way.
    - spaceman_2020 4y ago
      A lot of the old rich are just old aristocrats. Most made their fortunes through war, conquest, or plain old exploitation of their subjects. Far nastier stuff than some nerd striking it rich by making a fun app.
      - markdown 4y ago
        > ... plain old exploitation > ... some nerd striking it rich by making a fun app I suppose you could call Amazon a fun app.
    - rayiner 4y ago
eastbound 4y ago
I’ve always wondered: How do billionaires ensure their security? Does this old lady have no security detail at all? Are they as prone as us to street-mugging? Do people like usual unicorn CEOs, I know some who have street-facing houses or houses without a big fence (they don’t live in gated communities), have armed guys to protect against intruders? Do they walk their dog at night? let their kids walk to school in the morning? Do they have security detail for all this, or are they just like us, crossing their fingers that crime be low? Being CEOs with large interests at stake, they surely receive targeted blackmailing in large quantity, don’t they? Even as billionaires, do they simply take the first Uber from their airport to a downtown hotel? Do they simply assume airport-uber-hotel facilities are naturally safe, even considering how much interest they concentrate on their person?
- crimsoneer 4y ago
  Monaco has the highest number of police per head in the world (I think). It's also not a democracy, and can deal people quite harshly.
  - mpclark 4y ago
    ...and practically speaking, it is really hard to get in and out of Monaco (there are only a few roads in and out and traffic moves slowly) and everywhere is covered by cameras. Anyone who tried a street robbery likely wouldn't make it very far at all.
- sho 4y ago
  I think it depends on the country and the viability of any sort of attack on the person as an enterprise likely to produce profit. In countries known for their lawlessness, perhaps Brazil for example, or Papua New Guinea, HNW people do indeed have security details and live in pretty fortified areas (whole districts, typically, not just houses). A visiting CEO or whoever, depending on how well-known they are and how publicly knowable their visit is likely to be, might well organise such protection when they visit. Countries like this, all countries actually, have companies specialising in exactly that. But I think in countries where there is a credible claim to rule of law, attacks on the actual person are pretty rare. Kidnapping as a general crime is all but extinct in most of the developed world, and you'd have to kidnap someone to make any actual money - it's not like they have a billion dollars in cash on their person. You'd have to kidnap for ransom (or I suppose crypto keys these days?) which is just extraordinarily risky and unlikely to succeed in the modern, developed world. As to the "uber from the airport" question, anyone above a certain net worth has at least one assistant who organises their calendar and travel (and their whole lives, actually) and they will have arranged transport to/from airports in advance.
stuaxo 4y ago
Does Monaco have any schools, or is it just rich adults ?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dolmen 4y ago
  RTFA
- animal_spirits 4y ago
  My coworker grew up in Monaco, said schools were closed for the F1 race because they couldn't hear anything in the schoolrooms.
- julosflb 4y ago
  yes they do have schools, even high schools.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  I mean rich adults have kids I guess.
the_chatman 4y ago
GuB-42 4y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that for Monaco nationals, housing is heavily subsidized. Otherwise they simply wouldn't be able to live in their own country! I personally know a Monaco national. Typical middle-class lifestyle, maybe he secretly has a fortune be he doesn't look like it. Interestingly, despite living effectively in France, he is not French, he is not even a EU citizen, it means that when he went to study in France, he had to do more paperwork than someone from, say, Germany. And BTW, while I didn't live in Monaco, I went there a few times (2h drive from where I live) and it definitely feels the way you describe it.
subsubzero 4y ago
I went to Monaco on my honeymoon(one of a few places I visited). A few things the article does not mention are that the local residents cannot gamble at the cities casino. I believe that the casino is one of the largest sources of revenue for the city state. The aquarium and palace are very nice and the palace in particular has alot of history and continuing tradition. Was shocked at the number of luxury cars that were in our parking garage(we drove in), like at least 20-30 Ferraris, Rolls Royce and Bentleys in the garage we parked at. Having grown up in the sf bay area which is very wealthy, the level of wealth here was amazing even to me. I know the country is desperately trying to add more land, this means building out into the sea and building up(high rises). The city state is on a somewhat hilly area which further restricts available building areas. Overall it was a great trip and the people were all friendly and it seemed very safe, lastly I really enjoyed the beer Brasserie de Monaco pilsner(locally brewed).
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >the local residents cannot gamble at the cities casino. Sounds like Las Vegas. I don't mean to say that Vegas residents are prohibited from gambling; they aren't. There certainly are gamblers among them, both natives[1] and those who moved specifically there to gamble. But to the vast majority of Las Vegas residents the casinos are a) employers and b) a place to take out-of-town guests to for an inexpensive meal. [1] By which I mean "regular people". Newcomers greatly outnumber those actually native to the city.

ggm 4y ago

This is analogous to Singapore, with a huge army of workers resident in Malaysia crossing over every day, and most returning every night. Hong Kong is somewhat similar but less so: there is enough cheap housing for a significant proportion of the cheaper labour (below millionaire class) to live in the economies boundaries. The article does make it clear that Monegasques have significant state support for housing but that's on the assumption they aren't millionaires. The mobile workforce from outside is presumably given one of two "perks" -lower taxation outcomes (although I suspect there is some bilateral tax treaty) for at least income tax, and higher pay than they'd get working in their domicile. I'm trying to steer clear of approval or disapproval writing this. I can't imagine making either of the two choices: to be a tax exile living there but with no statehood, or to be a mobile worker working there but having to return to an EU economy every night. The third option, being Monegasque is not open to me any more than Maltese citizenship, which is also much sought, and hard to get although not as hard as this one. A surprising number of british working class people have Maltese citizenship, similarly Gibraltarian: thats what the british Navy does for you. I wonder if in millionaires row their advice for non-dom includes "marry a maltese"

teedeepee 4y ago
Most Monegasques are by and large not millionaires, but they are indeed taken care of by the welfare state very very well. However, they barely make up 25% of the residents, so they are overshadowed by the wealthier foreigners who set up residence in Monaco. Re: the mobile workforce, there's a tax treaty between Monaco and France (which was imposed by the latter after a total blockade of the former in the 1960s) by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco. People who set up fiscal residence in Monaco to avoid taxes are, therefore, not French.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  > by which French citizens working in Monaco still have to pay income tax in France, even if they are Monaco residents. It's the only case of "global taxation" of French expatriates in the world. There are, therefore, no incentives for them to live in Monaco Ha, it's amazing how fast and efficient the French government can be at blocking these legal loopholes so that the handful of workers working in Monaco couldn't avoid paying French taxes anymore, when many publicly listed French corporations like Airbus, ST Microelectronics, Balenciaga, etc. have their financial residence in the Netherlands depriving the French state of billions in taxes for decades and nobody bats an eye, but if a few ordinary people do it then there's hell to pay. It's almost as if there's an agenda for a double standard here, where the system is rigged against the peasantry and for the benefit of wealthy elites. Maybe those guillotines have been gathering dust for too long now.
  - airtonix 4y ago
  - shakow 4y ago
    1960's French government and current days French governments did not really have the same mindset on many subjects.
  - 4y ago

throwaway1777 4y ago

London, NYC, Lugano, Singapore. Wait… Lugano? I mean I know it’s a nice city in Switzerland but?

tsunamifury 4y ago
Substitute lake como but Swiss side.
- paganel 4y ago
  Plus all the multi-millionaires from nearby Northern Italy (one of the most industrialised regions in Europe until quite recently, and still one of the wealthiest) hiding their wealth in there. Them and Mina, the famous singer [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_(Italian_singer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_(Italian_singer)
- martopix 4y ago
  Lugano is not on lake Como.
  - tsunamifury 4y ago
    Yea that’s why I said substitute as a concept.
vidarh 4y ago
Lugano is a common target for tax exiles who wants something low profile, so it's full of rich people from all over Europe.
brailsafe 4y ago
They could have added Jackson Hole, Wyoming to the list and it would seem equally strange. Kind of a small town with billionaires that you don't really know about unless you've either been there or read specifically about it. In Canada I'm not aware of any rich people small towns (unless you consider Vancouver, West Vancouver, or Toronto, or the Shaunhessy neighbourhood of Vancouver), but there is the Muskoka area of Ontario where Kevin O'Leary's wife recently smashed her boat into and killed someone

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> the little old unassuming lady in sweatpants walking her dog in the morning may actually be a multi-billionaire, and you wouldn't be able to tell. why doesn't she hire a dog walker then? /s

TaylorGood 4y ago
UHNW doesn't inherently mean rescinding fulfillment :)
polotics 4y ago
Because her doctors at the Parc Impérial told her to do this much walking and are plugged-in to her watch, of course.

nathanvanfleet 4y ago

Rich people love to distinguish between old and new rich. Am I supposed to somehow be impressed by this? Old rich just use their money for pleasure and status like new rich do, they just have different more obtuse ways to do it.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
I think the implication is that “old money” has aristocratic roots and thus, “noble blood”. Just plain old chauvinism and bigotry, but now applied to billionaires too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TotoHorner 4y ago
They’re incredibly smug about it too, as if getting born with a silver spoon in your mouth is somehow far more commendable?
- ergocoder 4y ago
  Old rich also likely earned their wealth in a lot more unethical way.
  - spaceman_2020 4y ago
    A lot of the old rich are just old aristocrats. Most made their fortunes through war, conquest, or plain old exploitation of their subjects. Far nastier stuff than some nerd striking it rich by making a fun app.
    - markdown 4y ago
      > ... plain old exploitation > ... some nerd striking it rich by making a fun app I suppose you could call Amazon a fun app.
  - rayiner 4y ago

eastbound 4y ago

I’ve always wondered: How do billionaires ensure their security? Does this old lady have no security detail at all? Are they as prone as us to street-mugging? Do people like usual unicorn CEOs, I know some who have street-facing houses or houses without a big fence (they don’t live in gated communities), have armed guys to protect against intruders? Do they walk their dog at night? let their kids walk to school in the morning? Do they have security detail for all this, or are they just like us, crossing their fingers that crime be low? Being CEOs with large interests at stake, they surely receive targeted blackmailing in large quantity, don’t they? Even as billionaires, do they simply take the first Uber from their airport to a downtown hotel? Do they simply assume airport-uber-hotel facilities are naturally safe, even considering how much interest they concentrate on their person?

crimsoneer 4y ago
Monaco has the highest number of police per head in the world (I think). It's also not a democracy, and can deal people quite harshly.
- mpclark 4y ago
  ...and practically speaking, it is really hard to get in and out of Monaco (there are only a few roads in and out and traffic moves slowly) and everywhere is covered by cameras. Anyone who tried a street robbery likely wouldn't make it very far at all.
sho 4y ago
I think it depends on the country and the viability of any sort of attack on the person as an enterprise likely to produce profit. In countries known for their lawlessness, perhaps Brazil for example, or Papua New Guinea, HNW people do indeed have security details and live in pretty fortified areas (whole districts, typically, not just houses). A visiting CEO or whoever, depending on how well-known they are and how publicly knowable their visit is likely to be, might well organise such protection when they visit. Countries like this, all countries actually, have companies specialising in exactly that. But I think in countries where there is a credible claim to rule of law, attacks on the actual person are pretty rare. Kidnapping as a general crime is all but extinct in most of the developed world, and you'd have to kidnap someone to make any actual money - it's not like they have a billion dollars in cash on their person. You'd have to kidnap for ransom (or I suppose crypto keys these days?) which is just extraordinarily risky and unlikely to succeed in the modern, developed world. As to the "uber from the airport" question, anyone above a certain net worth has at least one assistant who organises their calendar and travel (and their whole lives, actually) and they will have arranged transport to/from airports in advance.

stuaxo 4y ago

Does Monaco have any schools, or is it just rich adults ?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dolmen 4y ago
RTFA
animal_spirits 4y ago
My coworker grew up in Monaco, said schools were closed for the F1 race because they couldn't hear anything in the schoolrooms.
julosflb 4y ago
yes they do have schools, even high schools.
the_only_law 4y ago
I mean rich adults have kids I guess.

the_chatman 4y ago

GuB-42 4y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that for Monaco nationals, housing is heavily subsidized. Otherwise they simply wouldn't be able to live in their own country! I personally know a Monaco national. Typical middle-class lifestyle, maybe he secretly has a fortune be he doesn't look like it. Interestingly, despite living effectively in France, he is not French, he is not even a EU citizen, it means that when he went to study in France, he had to do more paperwork than someone from, say, Germany. And BTW, while I didn't live in Monaco, I went there a few times (2h drive from where I live) and it definitely feels the way you describe it.

subsubzero 4y ago

I went to Monaco on my honeymoon(one of a few places I visited). A few things the article does not mention are that the local residents cannot gamble at the cities casino. I believe that the casino is one of the largest sources of revenue for the city state. The aquarium and palace are very nice and the palace in particular has alot of history and continuing tradition. Was shocked at the number of luxury cars that were in our parking garage(we drove in), like at least 20-30 Ferraris, Rolls Royce and Bentleys in the garage we parked at. Having grown up in the sf bay area which is very wealthy, the level of wealth here was amazing even to me. I know the country is desperately trying to add more land, this means building out into the sea and building up(high rises). The city state is on a somewhat hilly area which further restricts available building areas. Overall it was a great trip and the people were all friendly and it seemed very safe, lastly I really enjoyed the beer Brasserie de Monaco pilsner(locally brewed).

TMWNN 4y ago
>the local residents cannot gamble at the cities casino. Sounds like Las Vegas. I don't mean to say that Vegas residents are prohibited from gambling; they aren't. There certainly are gamblers among them, both natives[1] and those who moved specifically there to gamble. But to the vast majority of Las Vegas residents the casinos are a) employers and b) a place to take out-of-town guests to for an inexpensive meal. [1] By which I mean "regular people". Newcomers greatly outnumber those actually native to the city.