9 ms·

One random guy's opinion (and a long-time K9 user): Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort give

One random guy's opinion (and a long-time K9 user): Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already strong usability. I acknowledge it's your time/money but this does not make the app any more appealing. I know I sound like a broken record [1] but, at minimum, I believe Thunderbird could take quite a few users (who prefer privacy-focused apps) from both Google and Microsoft (not to mention 3rd-party apps [2] [3] [4]) by integrating functionality at the local level. This would be a considerable (IMO) differentiation in functionality. I will continue to use Outlook until there is a significant justification to switch to Thunderbird. And until "Thunderbird for Android" is significantly differentiated in functionality (i.e., ignoring UI), it will remain branded in my mind as K9. - Signed: someone who still calls a tall building in Chicago as the Sears Tower [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31728531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31728531 [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.callicia.birdiesync&hl=en_US&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.callicia.b... [3] https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/thunderbird/addon/myphoneexplorer/ https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/thunderbird/addon/mypho... [4] https://generalsync.com/en/ https://generalsync.com/en/

PenguinCoder 4y ago
> Signed: someone who still calls a tall building in Chicago as the Sears Tower I think all locals/natives to the 312 and 773 still refer to it as such. Ain't changing!
- nicholasjarnold 4y ago
  confirmed. it's not changing. haven't lived there for a while, but it'll always be the Sears Tower if you ask me.
Obscurity4340 4y ago
What flaws are there in K9 that still motivates you to stick to Outlook?
- c_prompt 4y ago
  I use Outlook on my Windows PC and transfer all personal contacts, calendar entries, tasks, and notes locally. I would love to move to Thunderbird primarily because "Microsoft bad" but then I'd lose my local transfer functionality (not to mention Xobni - which still crashes every-so-often - but the functionality is worth it).
  - vetinari 4y ago
    But is there a demand for desktop-based sync? You can run your caldav/carddav service in your local network, if you are so inclined. You will get local sync, and the client authors do not have to build specific desktop-based tools. I for one do not want to return 15 years back, to serial/irda/bluetooth sync, having to think about sync, and eventually forgetting. Running a local service is much preferable, with devices syncing themselves as they see fit.
    - c_prompt 4y ago
      If you have a link for running a small footprint of a caldav/carddav service on my Windows laptop, I'm all ears. I played around using WSL and setting up a NextCloud instance but why do I want to use 2GB+ just to sync? At the end of the day, I want all my personal events, contacts, todos, and notes on my laptop and able to sync directly with my phone. I'm happy enough with my current bluetooth sync and wouldn't trade it for UI changes.
      - vetinari 4y ago
        Personally, I'm using a small Synology NAS and the Contact and Calendar servers that Synology provides. It solves the problem for being a host for multiple devices, with my laptop not having to be on, or even present, at all times. Also having dns entry helps. But for running on your laptop? Yes, nextcloud is overkill, it is not contacts/calendar server in the first place. I would look for smaller, more focused tools instead, baikal for example. For another inspiration, you can have a look at what davx5 -- the caldav/carddav provider for android -- tests against (https://www.davx5.com/tested-with https://www.davx5.com/tested-with).
ilyt 4y ago
"But we hired designers and if we don't make small design changes they'd be out of work" Seriously that's how most of the UI trends feel like
snthd 4y ago
Would JMAP not be a better focus both in general, and to attract those same users? https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/issues/3272 https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/issues/3272
- commandersaki 4y ago
  There’s only one significant mail provider that supports JMAP.
  - zahllos 4y ago
    ...and it must also be said that the selection of client software that supports it is somewhat limited. For this discussion, Thunderbird does not. I'd also add that some fairly major providers, e.g. anything based on MS Exchange, and Google's Android client, do their own thing (e.g. ActiveSync). For myself I'm aware of a bunch of bugs in Thunderbird affecting my experience and I'd rather these were fixed first.
  - w-hn 4y ago
    And in larger scheme of things that provider is anything but significant.
orra 4y ago
> Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already strong usability I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree. I left K-9 ages ago, because unfortunately for ages it had no Material Design. These upcoming changes are a modernisation. That's good for mass appeal. Mass users don't want an app which looks antiquated.
- climb_stealth 4y ago
  For what it's worth I tried K9 in the past and ended up not using it because it was somewhat clunky and ugly. So here's one potential user who would welcome a more modern interface.
- handedness 4y ago
  On the other hand, I can't imagine leaving an app for that reason. As one who fairly loathes Material Design (especially on mobile), I was hoping cketti would fix what's wrong with Thunderbird, rather than Thunderbird ruining the best Android email client out there, which is now looking like an almost certainty. I really hope there's a good fork.
  - awill 4y ago
    I'm neither for or against Material Design, but when I used Android, but MD was generally a good sign that the app was well supported, and the devs cared about UX. When I'd search for an app, the high quality apps were almost always MD. Maybe k9 was an exception, but I'm sure they lost potential users.
  - vitorgrs 4y ago
    Design for me is one of main important on mobile platforms. If the design is bad, is basically a big no for me at least. I wouldn't be leaving because I wouldn't be installing in first place. I was using Outlook on Android, but I was finding it pretty heavy/slow. Looked for other alternatives, like K9 and Spark, and choose Spark exactly because of the UI/UX.
  - rjzzleep 4y ago
lelandfe 4y ago
> Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already strong usability "This rotary phone in the office is perfectly fine and usable! The new-hires just need to learn how it works, and then it's the exact same thing."
- tmtvl 4y ago
  Learn how it works? It's a rotary phone! Just turn the disk the appropriate amount for the number you're dialing and loose. You could train a chimpanzee to do that.
  - lelandfe 4y ago
    You've rather missed my point, I think: an unfamiliar or aging look over what is a common interface is a huge problem for gaining new users. Further, I have witnessed people not understand rotary phones. Plunk one down in front of 10 teenagers and I would wager few indeed would intuit it immediately.
    - tmtvl 4y ago
      Ah, I see. Well, if you were to ask me whether I think a group of teenagers is smarter than a chimpanzee... Regardless, on the topic of drawing new users, if the users truly are "new", then any look will be unfamiliar to them, but yes, luring users over from competitors may be tricky. I don't really know about the dated look, though. For example in computer UI design we had flat, then went shapely, then went flat again. It reminds me of architecture: there is always the disconnect between people who like an older style (like when Classical Mediterranean architecture came back in vogue and we saw a bunch of public buildings being built with all pillars and triangles) and people who want some kind of new experimental style (like when Jugendstil started appearing). There is always a balance that can be found between finding a presentation that aligns with market trends and a presentation that stands out and draws attention. It's up to the people running the show where on the axis they decide to plant themselves.
kevincox 4y ago
As a short-time K9 user I disagree. You have to pick between the display name and email of senders. There is no way to show both. This is because of problems with the UI design that risks being misleading with malicious names. The think there are also lots of UX improvements that would be great. Right now the threading UI is awkward. I'm really glad that swipe actions and swiping between messages have landed as well. I like K9 but I can definitely see the benefit of better UX.

PenguinCoder 4y ago

> Signed: someone who still calls a tall building in Chicago as the Sears Tower I think all locals/natives to the 312 and 773 still refer to it as such. Ain't changing!

nicholasjarnold 4y ago
confirmed. it's not changing. haven't lived there for a while, but it'll always be the Sears Tower if you ask me.

Obscurity4340 4y ago

What flaws are there in K9 that still motivates you to stick to Outlook?

c_prompt 4y ago
I use Outlook on my Windows PC and transfer all personal contacts, calendar entries, tasks, and notes locally. I would love to move to Thunderbird primarily because "Microsoft bad" but then I'd lose my local transfer functionality (not to mention Xobni - which still crashes every-so-often - but the functionality is worth it).
- vetinari 4y ago
  But is there a demand for desktop-based sync? You can run your caldav/carddav service in your local network, if you are so inclined. You will get local sync, and the client authors do not have to build specific desktop-based tools. I for one do not want to return 15 years back, to serial/irda/bluetooth sync, having to think about sync, and eventually forgetting. Running a local service is much preferable, with devices syncing themselves as they see fit.
  - c_prompt 4y ago
    If you have a link for running a small footprint of a caldav/carddav service on my Windows laptop, I'm all ears. I played around using WSL and setting up a NextCloud instance but why do I want to use 2GB+ just to sync? At the end of the day, I want all my personal events, contacts, todos, and notes on my laptop and able to sync directly with my phone. I'm happy enough with my current bluetooth sync and wouldn't trade it for UI changes.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      Personally, I'm using a small Synology NAS and the Contact and Calendar servers that Synology provides. It solves the problem for being a host for multiple devices, with my laptop not having to be on, or even present, at all times. Also having dns entry helps. But for running on your laptop? Yes, nextcloud is overkill, it is not contacts/calendar server in the first place. I would look for smaller, more focused tools instead, baikal for example. For another inspiration, you can have a look at what davx5 -- the caldav/carddav provider for android -- tests against (https://www.davx5.com/tested-with https://www.davx5.com/tested-with).

ilyt 4y ago

"But we hired designers and if we don't make small design changes they'd be out of work" Seriously that's how most of the UI trends feel like

snthd 4y ago

Would JMAP not be a better focus both in general, and to attract those same users? https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/issues/3272 https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/issues/3272

commandersaki 4y ago
There’s only one significant mail provider that supports JMAP.
- zahllos 4y ago
  ...and it must also be said that the selection of client software that supports it is somewhat limited. For this discussion, Thunderbird does not. I'd also add that some fairly major providers, e.g. anything based on MS Exchange, and Google's Android client, do their own thing (e.g. ActiveSync). For myself I'm aware of a bunch of bugs in Thunderbird affecting my experience and I'd rather these were fixed first.
- w-hn 4y ago
  And in larger scheme of things that provider is anything but significant.

orra 4y ago

> Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already strong usability I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree. I left K-9 ages ago, because unfortunately for ages it had no Material Design. These upcoming changes are a modernisation. That's good for mass appeal. Mass users don't want an app which looks antiquated.

climb_stealth 4y ago
For what it's worth I tried K9 in the past and ended up not using it because it was somewhat clunky and ugly. So here's one potential user who would welcome a more modern interface.
handedness 4y ago
On the other hand, I can't imagine leaving an app for that reason. As one who fairly loathes Material Design (especially on mobile), I was hoping cketti would fix what's wrong with Thunderbird, rather than Thunderbird ruining the best Android email client out there, which is now looking like an almost certainty. I really hope there's a good fork.
- awill 4y ago
  I'm neither for or against Material Design, but when I used Android, but MD was generally a good sign that the app was well supported, and the devs cared about UX. When I'd search for an app, the high quality apps were almost always MD. Maybe k9 was an exception, but I'm sure they lost potential users.
- vitorgrs 4y ago
  Design for me is one of main important on mobile platforms. If the design is bad, is basically a big no for me at least. I wouldn't be leaving because I wouldn't be installing in first place. I was using Outlook on Android, but I was finding it pretty heavy/slow. Looked for other alternatives, like K9 and Spark, and choose Spark exactly because of the UI/UX.
- rjzzleep 4y ago

lelandfe 4y ago

> Little UI design changes are NOT what you should be spending time/money on; they are a waste of effort given K9's already strong usability "This rotary phone in the office is perfectly fine and usable! The new-hires just need to learn how it works, and then it's the exact same thing."

tmtvl 4y ago
Learn how it works? It's a rotary phone! Just turn the disk the appropriate amount for the number you're dialing and loose. You could train a chimpanzee to do that.
- lelandfe 4y ago
  You've rather missed my point, I think: an unfamiliar or aging look over what is a common interface is a huge problem for gaining new users. Further, I have witnessed people not understand rotary phones. Plunk one down in front of 10 teenagers and I would wager few indeed would intuit it immediately.
  - tmtvl 4y ago
    Ah, I see. Well, if you were to ask me whether I think a group of teenagers is smarter than a chimpanzee... Regardless, on the topic of drawing new users, if the users truly are "new", then any look will be unfamiliar to them, but yes, luring users over from competitors may be tricky. I don't really know about the dated look, though. For example in computer UI design we had flat, then went shapely, then went flat again. It reminds me of architecture: there is always the disconnect between people who like an older style (like when Classical Mediterranean architecture came back in vogue and we saw a bunch of public buildings being built with all pillars and triangles) and people who want some kind of new experimental style (like when Jugendstil started appearing). There is always a balance that can be found between finding a presentation that aligns with market trends and a presentation that stands out and draws attention. It's up to the people running the show where on the axis they decide to plant themselves.

kevincox 4y ago

As a short-time K9 user I disagree. You have to pick between the display name and email of senders. There is no way to show both. This is because of problems with the UI design that risks being misleading with malicious names. The think there are also lots of UX improvements that would be great. Right now the threading UI is awkward. I'm really glad that swipe actions and swiping between messages have landed as well. I like K9 but I can definitely see the benefit of better UX.