8 ms·

The Exceptionally American Problem of Rising Roadway Deaths

101 points by IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago

p0pcult 4y ago
[flagged]
Maxburn 4y ago
Seems to me that enforcement throughout Covid went down. People noticed and I think drivers are more wild now.
- raylad 4y ago
  Possible correlation to long COVID neurological damage. Similar to what happened with lead tetraethyl in the 50s-70s.
  - musk_micropenis 4y ago
    This is so incredibly speculative, it's borderline outrageous to even make the claim without something to back it.
    - tehjoker 4y ago
      The speculation on road traffic is not well supported, but neurological damage due to even mild or asymptomatic covid is well documented.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - otherme123 4y ago
    If that was true, we should see a general world trend, and not a "Exceptionally USA problem".
  - moistly 4y ago
    Long COVID Patients May Develop Nerve Damage: Study https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220303/long-covid-patients-nerve-damage-study https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220303/long-covid-patients... What are possible long-term neurological complications of COVID-19? https://www.ninds.nih.gov/current-research/coronavirus-and-ninds/coronavirus-and-nervous-system#complications https://www.ninds.nih.gov/current-research/coronavirus-and-n... Does nerve damage contribute to long COVID symptoms? https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/does-nerve-damage-contribute-to-long-covid-symptoms/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/does-nerve-da... First three DDG hits for “long Covid nerve damage.” IOW OP’s speculation is plausible.
- jmugan 4y ago
  I don't leave the house much, but on the Austin subreddit, people are talking about this all the time. Enforcement seems down and wild driving is up.
  - itronitron 4y ago
    Five years ago I considered Austin to have some of the worst drivers in the US. Although 99% of Austin drivers I consider to be safe and courteous the remaining 1% would drive in an absolutely reckless manner such as turning right from the far left lane, which I saw happen on more than one occasion. Disturbing to think that is only getting worse.
- dionidium 4y ago
  If it seems like enforcement went down it's because it's fallen off a cliff. Some examples: * In April 2014 San Francisco police issued 11,612 tickets for traffic violations. In April 2022 they issued 338. No, that's not a typo. It went from 11,612 to 338. (Some links here: https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448 https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448) * NYC police issued 5,039 tickets during the third week of July 2022; they issued 19,126 during the same period in 2019. Unlike San Francisco, they haven't totally stopped writing tickets, but the numbers are down drastically. (Some info: https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-but-drivers-arent-slowing-down/ https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-b...) * In Minneapolis police have been making 80% fewer traffic stops each week since the death of George Floyd. (Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-stops/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-s...)
  - Maxburn 4y ago
    That's about what I expected but it is nice to see data.
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
There is also a uniquely American trend of not enforcing traffic laws in the name of social justice. https://www.denver7.com/news/national/cities-and-states-banning-police-from-pulling-drivers-over-for-low-level-traffic-violations https://www.denver7.com/news/national/cities-and-states-bann... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/us/police-traffic-stops.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/us/police-traffic-stops.h... Over time, things add up. A really curious person will ask if the drop in enforcement correlates with rise in deaths. They seem to start at the same time.
- mmmpop 4y ago
  Aside from the seatbelt infraction, which of these violations have anything to do with an increase in highway fatalities? Are you suggesting something along the lines of the broken windows theory of deviance?
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    Do you think it is remotely plausible that: P(causing death | minor violation ) > P(causing death | ~ minor violation) Also: P(reckless driving | without cops) > P(reckless driving | cops) Here let me one step further and present data: > California to Stop Towing, Impounding Vehicles of Unlicensed Drivers https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/california-impounding-practices-change-for-unlicensed-drivers https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/california-impounding-... "According to a study conducted by the California Department of Motor Vehicles, unlicensed drivers are almost three times more likely to cause a fatal crash than licensed drivers." https://www.berginjurylawyers.com/blog/auto-accident/unlicensed-driver-crash-california/ https://www.berginjurylawyers.com/blog/auto-accident/unlicen... Is NYTimes so journalistically lazy/corrupt that they couldn't connect two obvious pieces of facts?
    - halffaday 4y ago
      Yes. I think the opinion NYT is programming into their readers is that normal people owning the means of private transportation is bad. The particular facts or coherence of the argument is immaterial. Just believe the opposite of whatever Pravda says and you’ll be a’ight.
sheeeep86 4y ago
I would love to see these numbers correlated with the number of large pickups that are driving on the roads. These types of cars offer no pedestrian safety and are more and more common in the US.
newaccount74 4y ago
I think the biggest factor is high fronts on trucks and SUVs that seem to be designed to crush pedestrians, together with increasingly poor visibility. We have the same problem in the EU. Pickups are not as popular here, but even small cars are getting SUV styling with pedestrian-killing hoods. I had high hopes that Tesla would make sleek and pedestrian-safer cars popular again: the Model X has a pretty low front for an SUV. Unfortunately Tesla threw all that out the window and designed the most effective pedestrian-crushing-device I've ever seen -- I hope the Cybertruck is delayed for a few more years....
- twblalock 4y ago
  > We have the same problem in the EU. Then how does that explain why increased road deaths are exceptional to the USA?
  - acdha 4y ago
    The U.S. heavily subsidizes those vehicles and the wide roads & parking they require so we have tons of them. Europeans also buy them for the same reasons but you have to be especially committed to intimidating your neighbors to pay that much more for fuel, parking, etc. and deal with narrower streets.
    - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
      The US doesn't subsidize those vehicles. In 2008, the Obama government passed the CAFE emissions standards which carved out an exception for vehicles used for commercial purposes. Most pickups and large vehicles fall under this exception and can be profitable due to lower emissions standards. The rest is true but a bit complicated. The US Federal government subsidizes arterials which gives local governments an incentive to build more arterials so they can receive more federal funding.
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        parent's point was that the infrastructure we build acts as subsidy. A pickup truck is a lot more desirable if your country increases pays a bunch of money to increase road widths. European roads are typically 8 or 9 feet per lane while US roads are often 10-12 ft per lane.
browningstreet 4y ago
Purely anecdotal: I work from home but one day per week head out during rush hour and drive across town for a gym appointment. I almost never drive between 4p-6p anymore — my usual gym hours are 5am. The rush hour commute is crazy and scary enough that I have considered cancelling it. One factor I notice is most drivers have their phone up in front of their faces. And at least during rush hour, the biggest trucks are driving pretty slow and the smaller more random drivers definitely correlate to smart phone obsessed drivers. Lots of sudden moves. Further, people on the freeway totally obsessed with their phones are easy to spot: lane drifting and driving speeds that are typically inconsistent with the prevailing speed of the cars around them. I drive a Tesla and use auto pilot almost all the time (I don’t have FSD). When you’re going a very consistent speed, the inconsistent behavior of the cars around you feels way more prevalent. Another potential factor: left lane highway driving. I drove in a 3rd world country this summer and they were very consistent about driving in the right lane and only passing in the left lane. No one at all drove in the left lane. I think left lane driving in the US leads to more risky maneuvers and road rage responses.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > people on the freeway totally obsessed with their phones are easy to spot: lane drifting Drift, JERK, drift, JERK. It's the mating dance of people who can't stop twittering, facebooking, or texting for even a second.
- timeon 4y ago
  > most drivers have their phone up in front of their faces I've noticed this as well (but I'm not in US).
  - bluedino 4y ago
    I wondered if it's only common in the US
    - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
      It was common in the UK too until it was made illegal [1], still happens, but less so. 1. https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
muti 4y ago
https://archive.ph/sEmh5 https://archive.ph/sEmh5
lkrubner 4y ago
The chart shows that the uptick begins in 2014, roughly when the meth epidemic became a true epidemic, spreading to every part of the USA, so meth in particular, and drugs in general, are the most likely explanation. So these deaths fit in with the narrative of "rising deaths of despair." https://www.sciencenews.org/article/deaths-of-despair-depression-mental-health-covid-19-pandemic https://www.sciencenews.org/article/deaths-of-despair-depres...
- jahnu 4y ago
  http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  That also correlated with the times that a number of states began to legalize marijuana for recreational use[1]. There are studies looking at this relationship and finding a correlation between road death increases and marijuana legalization. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._j... [2]" https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-19/where-pot-became-legal-car-crash-deaths-rose-study https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-19/...
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    i bet it correltes to a million different things.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Interesting correlation, but is there anything else these states have in common that would also correlate?
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  Do people only do meth in America?
- dionidium 4y ago
compiskey 4y ago
- trgn 4y ago
  I wouldn't be so extreme, since Americans do display care and neighborly affection in a myriad of other ways. What is the case though, is that americans have reified freedom to mean actual cars. Curbing driving in a car (very specifically this) is perceived as curbing of freedom. It's a disease of the american mind.
- feet 4y ago
  How are people going to protest when they need to work constantly just to make ends-meet
  - simonswords82 4y ago
    Which is surely by design. People who are just about able to keep their heads above water and in fear of a huge medical bill (or any bill for that matter) will literally work like their lives depend on it...because it does.
    - brookst 4y ago
      I don’t believe there is any kind of conspiracy or design in a system this complex. It’s all emergent behavior. If there was anyone powerful and omniscient enough to design all of these second- and third-order effects, I don’t think there enough competence in the world to see the design implemented across hundreds of millions of people in a way that produces the desired effects. IMO much more likely it’s a mindless vicious circle of human nature.
      - compiskey 4y ago
        It’s behavior that’s emerged over and over in the past: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-of-workers-is-a-big-factor-in-fed-policy.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... It’s emergent behavior given your relative experience to this point. It is not “net new” behavior for the species.
simonswords82 4y ago
Whilst the message is quite blunt this subreddit does a good job of highlighting just how much of our world's urban planning and infrastructure is built around cars: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars Until I stumbled across this it had not occurred to me how much people (and walking) are placed second to cars and infrastructure. Surely this needs to change going forward.
- soneil 4y ago
  I spent a few years in the US, and this struck me so hard. It's really difficult to even explain. You know how see something like cows being sacred in parts of India, and we can't even get our heads around it? I feel exactly the same confusion when I see how sacred cars are in the US. People will fight against designing infrastructure around people, to appease their cars. Jaywalking is a crime, because it offends the cars. Public transport is a dirty word, because it offends the cars. And if you ask anyone to even imagine any other way - at best they'll patronisingly explain that you just don't understand their religion. More often they'll get hugely defensive of it. Most people won't even entertain the thought exercise. I half get the impression the US would be a happier place if you'd give up the charade and just let the cars vote instead.
mym1990 4y ago
A lot of American incentives are purely aligned to generating revenue or power through lobbying. I would be hard pressed to imagine that cycling or pedestrian unions have any kind of pull compared to large automakers. I absolutely love cycling through a city that has the infrastructure for it, and opt to walk to anything less than a mile away. I have been hit twice while riding a motorcycle, the first time was nearly fatal. I also drive a truck. So I guess I am the embodiment of all the good and bad of the system :( Definitely cognizant that I drive a danger machine though.
- stevenwoo 4y ago
  For whatever reason, motorcyclists' deaths are about up 10x times pedestrian/cyclist deaths over the same time period in the USA according to that graphic accompanying the article. Genuinely curious as non motorcyclist - is there awareness of this or collective outrage among the motorcyclists' community?
  - mym1990 4y ago
    I am not sure to be honest, as I don't ride anymore(I figured 3rd strike will be the one that gets me). There is a quote that seems to ring true to me: "There's two types of riders; those who have crashed, and those who will." Most new riders don't believe it, but the truth is that whether you crash or not is almost never in your control, and being naive of this will just get you killed faster. Unfortunately, death seems to be something that is ever present if you are part of a bigger rider community, a lot of riders know someone close that passed away.
    - stevenwoo 4y ago
      Thanks that makes sense. I reexamined it and missed the tiny text along that graphic that indicates licensed riders doubled during part of that time period and the number of deaths increased 140% during the longer period of the graph so maybe the rate of death didn't change so much as a non varying proportion of motorcyclists deaths per mile, it's hard to tell.
simonsarris 4y ago
Truly strange that there's no mention of the Obama admin "reforming" CAFE standards in 2012 so that the larger the vehicle's footprint, the worse fuel standards it needed to be compliant. Every single automaker went the route of making their vehicles larger, that is, compliant. You can no longer buy a new small truck in the US which is very frustrating. The timeline for CAFE standards making America's most popular vehicles enormous tracks with the uptick on their graph. Though maybe it's something else. Someone down-thread suggested "meth" but vehicle size seems an awful lot more likely, especially since its motorcyclists and pedestrians that are dying.
- froh 4y ago
  strange indeed. maybe nobody mentioned it because the lower mpg requirement for "light trucks" was already in place since the 1980s? and even the drop in requirements accross the board in 2012 was already compensated for by 2014 and the mpg mileage was higher in 2014 than before and went further up ever since? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy the lack of small trucks could also be caused by dark marketing of larger, heavier vehicles as "more secure".
gcanyon 4y ago
Not Just Bikes on YouTube covers road/pedestrian/bike safety extensively. https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes Specific videos: Crossing the street should be safer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ByEBjf9ktY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ByEBjf9ktY How to quickly build a cycling city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-1YNAmWlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-1YNAmWlk Wasting money on car infrastructure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8 The wrong way to set speed limits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc Safe cycling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8F5hXqS-Ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8F5hXqS-Ac "Stroads" are dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
marcusverus 4y ago
How could you bring yourself to write such an article without referencing the ENORMOUS differences in miles driven per capita? Folks in the US drive at a rate more than 6x that of France, the UK, or Germany. With that in mind the differences cited are neither surprising nor particularly indicative of a uniquely dangerous driving experience. https://data.oecd.org/transport/passenger-transport.htm https://data.oecd.org/transport/passenger-transport.htm
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  It does raise the question, however, of what all those extra miles are getting us.
  - pandaman 4y ago
    Single family houses with front and back yards, more variety in stores, more choice in services, random businesses, which would not exist otherwise (you can have an underwater basket weaving studio in some strip mall and still get enough customers to pay rent since your customer base comes from 60+ miles radius), convenient access to parks and trails for pretty much everyone etc.
- abigail95 4y ago
  This is like saying you have more meth addicts because you smoke more meth. The solution of driving less doesn't seem useful or astute. It also doesn't explain why deaths went up as people drove less often during the pandemic.
- trgn 4y ago
  Man is measure of all things. That americans need to drive more to get their daily needs met, is not a mitigating factor. In fact, maybe it points at the root of the problem.
  - marcusverus 4y ago
    My point was that this article is misleading. It criticizes US road design as unsafe and backs this up with misleading per-capita data. If you compared US road fatalities to Somalia on a per-capita basis, I bet they'd kick our asses, too! Not because they have safer roads, but because per-capita data introduces all sorts of extraneous variables (car ownership, miles driven, etc) that make it useless as a measure of road safety. The fact of the matter is that American roads twice as safe as European roads on a per-mile basis--which is the only meaningful way to measure road safety. So... why write an article about how unsafe American roads are relative to European roads when they are twice as safe?
ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
Floyd riots and defund the police. If your DA and politicians won't stand behind you, cops retreat to the donut/coffee shop. Completely logical response.
- deadbolt 4y ago
  The Floyd riots didn't have anything to do with police policing traffic.
  - ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
    Police are people too. Just as Twitter employees were demoralized by Elon's behavior and it effected everything they did, so are police officers effected by morale. Traffic stops can escalate very quickly, but why do it when no one has your back?
nickpinkston 4y ago
While I'm sure the US probably does have some bad rates. (pedestrian deaths, etc. makes sense we're bad at) I'm unsure this really corrects for the other factors. How does this correct for average mileage spent in cars per per country? Seems like mostly a function of population density and wealth? ie maybe the US has low pop density and high wealth, so unlike the highlighted Japan/France (who have great public transit / rail), we can't justify it as much but people can still afford to use cars constantly. Judging based on traffic aggression, it would seem America is actually on the more chill side compared to what I've driven in across the world. I think their recommendations to change urban spaces to make them safer make sense though, so no argument there. More just wondering if maybe our car culture is kind of baked-in to our material conditions.

101 points by IfOnlyYouKnew 4y ago

p0pcult 4y ago

[flagged]

Maxburn 4y ago

Seems to me that enforcement throughout Covid went down. People noticed and I think drivers are more wild now.

raylad 4y ago
Possible correlation to long COVID neurological damage. Similar to what happened with lead tetraethyl in the 50s-70s.
- musk_micropenis 4y ago
  This is so incredibly speculative, it's borderline outrageous to even make the claim without something to back it.
  - tehjoker 4y ago
    The speculation on road traffic is not well supported, but neurological damage due to even mild or asymptomatic covid is well documented.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- otherme123 4y ago
  If that was true, we should see a general world trend, and not a "Exceptionally USA problem".
- moistly 4y ago
  Long COVID Patients May Develop Nerve Damage: Study https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220303/long-covid-patients-nerve-damage-study https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220303/long-covid-patients... What are possible long-term neurological complications of COVID-19? https://www.ninds.nih.gov/current-research/coronavirus-and-ninds/coronavirus-and-nervous-system#complications https://www.ninds.nih.gov/current-research/coronavirus-and-n... Does nerve damage contribute to long COVID symptoms? https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/does-nerve-damage-contribute-to-long-covid-symptoms/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/03/does-nerve-da... First three DDG hits for “long Covid nerve damage.” IOW OP’s speculation is plausible.
jmugan 4y ago
I don't leave the house much, but on the Austin subreddit, people are talking about this all the time. Enforcement seems down and wild driving is up.
- itronitron 4y ago
  Five years ago I considered Austin to have some of the worst drivers in the US. Although 99% of Austin drivers I consider to be safe and courteous the remaining 1% would drive in an absolutely reckless manner such as turning right from the far left lane, which I saw happen on more than one occasion. Disturbing to think that is only getting worse.
dionidium 4y ago
If it seems like enforcement went down it's because it's fallen off a cliff. Some examples: * In April 2014 San Francisco police issued 11,612 tickets for traffic violations. In April 2022 they issued 338. No, that's not a typo. It went from 11,612 to 338. (Some links here: https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448 https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448) * NYC police issued 5,039 tickets during the third week of July 2022; they issued 19,126 during the same period in 2019. Unlike San Francisco, they haven't totally stopped writing tickets, but the numbers are down drastically. (Some info: https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-but-drivers-arent-slowing-down/ https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-b...) * In Minneapolis police have been making 80% fewer traffic stops each week since the death of George Floyd. (Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-stops/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-s...)
- Maxburn 4y ago
  That's about what I expected but it is nice to see data.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

There is also a uniquely American trend of not enforcing traffic laws in the name of social justice. https://www.denver7.com/news/national/cities-and-states-banning-police-from-pulling-drivers-over-for-low-level-traffic-violations https://www.denver7.com/news/national/cities-and-states-bann... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/us/police-traffic-stops.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/us/police-traffic-stops.h... Over time, things add up. A really curious person will ask if the drop in enforcement correlates with rise in deaths. They seem to start at the same time.

mmmpop 4y ago
Aside from the seatbelt infraction, which of these violations have anything to do with an increase in highway fatalities? Are you suggesting something along the lines of the broken windows theory of deviance?
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  Do you think it is remotely plausible that: P(causing death | minor violation ) > P(causing death | ~ minor violation) Also: P(reckless driving | without cops) > P(reckless driving | cops) Here let me one step further and present data: > California to Stop Towing, Impounding Vehicles of Unlicensed Drivers https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/california-impounding-practices-change-for-unlicensed-drivers https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/california-impounding-... "According to a study conducted by the California Department of Motor Vehicles, unlicensed drivers are almost three times more likely to cause a fatal crash than licensed drivers." https://www.berginjurylawyers.com/blog/auto-accident/unlicensed-driver-crash-california/ https://www.berginjurylawyers.com/blog/auto-accident/unlicen... Is NYTimes so journalistically lazy/corrupt that they couldn't connect two obvious pieces of facts?
  - halffaday 4y ago
    Yes. I think the opinion NYT is programming into their readers is that normal people owning the means of private transportation is bad. The particular facts or coherence of the argument is immaterial. Just believe the opposite of whatever Pravda says and you’ll be a’ight.

sheeeep86 4y ago

I would love to see these numbers correlated with the number of large pickups that are driving on the roads. These types of cars offer no pedestrian safety and are more and more common in the US.

newaccount74 4y ago

I think the biggest factor is high fronts on trucks and SUVs that seem to be designed to crush pedestrians, together with increasingly poor visibility. We have the same problem in the EU. Pickups are not as popular here, but even small cars are getting SUV styling with pedestrian-killing hoods. I had high hopes that Tesla would make sleek and pedestrian-safer cars popular again: the Model X has a pretty low front for an SUV. Unfortunately Tesla threw all that out the window and designed the most effective pedestrian-crushing-device I've ever seen -- I hope the Cybertruck is delayed for a few more years....

twblalock 4y ago
> We have the same problem in the EU. Then how does that explain why increased road deaths are exceptional to the USA?
- acdha 4y ago
  The U.S. heavily subsidizes those vehicles and the wide roads & parking they require so we have tons of them. Europeans also buy them for the same reasons but you have to be especially committed to intimidating your neighbors to pay that much more for fuel, parking, etc. and deal with narrower streets.
  - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    The US doesn't subsidize those vehicles. In 2008, the Obama government passed the CAFE emissions standards which carved out an exception for vehicles used for commercial purposes. Most pickups and large vehicles fall under this exception and can be profitable due to lower emissions standards. The rest is true but a bit complicated. The US Federal government subsidizes arterials which gives local governments an incentive to build more arterials so they can receive more federal funding.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      parent's point was that the infrastructure we build acts as subsidy. A pickup truck is a lot more desirable if your country increases pays a bunch of money to increase road widths. European roads are typically 8 or 9 feet per lane while US roads are often 10-12 ft per lane.

browningstreet 4y ago

Purely anecdotal: I work from home but one day per week head out during rush hour and drive across town for a gym appointment. I almost never drive between 4p-6p anymore — my usual gym hours are 5am. The rush hour commute is crazy and scary enough that I have considered cancelling it. One factor I notice is most drivers have their phone up in front of their faces. And at least during rush hour, the biggest trucks are driving pretty slow and the smaller more random drivers definitely correlate to smart phone obsessed drivers. Lots of sudden moves. Further, people on the freeway totally obsessed with their phones are easy to spot: lane drifting and driving speeds that are typically inconsistent with the prevailing speed of the cars around them. I drive a Tesla and use auto pilot almost all the time (I don’t have FSD). When you’re going a very consistent speed, the inconsistent behavior of the cars around you feels way more prevalent. Another potential factor: left lane highway driving. I drove in a 3rd world country this summer and they were very consistent about driving in the right lane and only passing in the left lane. No one at all drove in the left lane. I think left lane driving in the US leads to more risky maneuvers and road rage responses.

pessimizer 4y ago
> people on the freeway totally obsessed with their phones are easy to spot: lane drifting Drift, JERK, drift, JERK. It's the mating dance of people who can't stop twittering, facebooking, or texting for even a second.
timeon 4y ago
> most drivers have their phone up in front of their faces I've noticed this as well (but I'm not in US).
- bluedino 4y ago
  I wondered if it's only common in the US
  - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
    It was common in the UK too until it was made illegal [1], still happens, but less so. 1. https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law

muti 4y ago

https://archive.ph/sEmh5 https://archive.ph/sEmh5

lkrubner 4y ago

The chart shows that the uptick begins in 2014, roughly when the meth epidemic became a true epidemic, spreading to every part of the USA, so meth in particular, and drugs in general, are the most likely explanation. So these deaths fit in with the narrative of "rising deaths of despair." https://www.sciencenews.org/article/deaths-of-despair-depression-mental-health-covid-19-pandemic https://www.sciencenews.org/article/deaths-of-despair-depres...

jahnu 4y ago
http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
onetimeusename 4y ago
That also correlated with the times that a number of states began to legalize marijuana for recreational use[1]. There are studies looking at this relationship and finding a correlation between road death increases and marijuana legalization. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._jurisdiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._j... [2]" https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-19/where-pot-became-legal-car-crash-deaths-rose-study https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2022-07-19/...
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  i bet it correltes to a million different things.
- brookst 4y ago
  Interesting correlation, but is there anything else these states have in common that would also correlate?
rufus_foreman 4y ago
Do people only do meth in America?
dionidium 4y ago

compiskey 4y ago

trgn 4y ago
I wouldn't be so extreme, since Americans do display care and neighborly affection in a myriad of other ways. What is the case though, is that americans have reified freedom to mean actual cars. Curbing driving in a car (very specifically this) is perceived as curbing of freedom. It's a disease of the american mind.
feet 4y ago
How are people going to protest when they need to work constantly just to make ends-meet
- simonswords82 4y ago
  Which is surely by design. People who are just about able to keep their heads above water and in fear of a huge medical bill (or any bill for that matter) will literally work like their lives depend on it...because it does.
  - brookst 4y ago
    I don’t believe there is any kind of conspiracy or design in a system this complex. It’s all emergent behavior. If there was anyone powerful and omniscient enough to design all of these second- and third-order effects, I don’t think there enough competence in the world to see the design implemented across hundreds of millions of people in a way that produces the desired effects. IMO much more likely it’s a mindless vicious circle of human nature.
    - compiskey 4y ago
      It’s behavior that’s emerged over and over in the past: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-of-workers-is-a-big-factor-in-fed-policy.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... It’s emergent behavior given your relative experience to this point. It is not “net new” behavior for the species.

simonswords82 4y ago

Whilst the message is quite blunt this subreddit does a good job of highlighting just how much of our world's urban planning and infrastructure is built around cars: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars Until I stumbled across this it had not occurred to me how much people (and walking) are placed second to cars and infrastructure. Surely this needs to change going forward.

soneil 4y ago
I spent a few years in the US, and this struck me so hard. It's really difficult to even explain. You know how see something like cows being sacred in parts of India, and we can't even get our heads around it? I feel exactly the same confusion when I see how sacred cars are in the US. People will fight against designing infrastructure around people, to appease their cars. Jaywalking is a crime, because it offends the cars. Public transport is a dirty word, because it offends the cars. And if you ask anyone to even imagine any other way - at best they'll patronisingly explain that you just don't understand their religion. More often they'll get hugely defensive of it. Most people won't even entertain the thought exercise. I half get the impression the US would be a happier place if you'd give up the charade and just let the cars vote instead.

mym1990 4y ago

A lot of American incentives are purely aligned to generating revenue or power through lobbying. I would be hard pressed to imagine that cycling or pedestrian unions have any kind of pull compared to large automakers. I absolutely love cycling through a city that has the infrastructure for it, and opt to walk to anything less than a mile away. I have been hit twice while riding a motorcycle, the first time was nearly fatal. I also drive a truck. So I guess I am the embodiment of all the good and bad of the system :( Definitely cognizant that I drive a danger machine though.

stevenwoo 4y ago
For whatever reason, motorcyclists' deaths are about up 10x times pedestrian/cyclist deaths over the same time period in the USA according to that graphic accompanying the article. Genuinely curious as non motorcyclist - is there awareness of this or collective outrage among the motorcyclists' community?
- mym1990 4y ago
  I am not sure to be honest, as I don't ride anymore(I figured 3rd strike will be the one that gets me). There is a quote that seems to ring true to me: "There's two types of riders; those who have crashed, and those who will." Most new riders don't believe it, but the truth is that whether you crash or not is almost never in your control, and being naive of this will just get you killed faster. Unfortunately, death seems to be something that is ever present if you are part of a bigger rider community, a lot of riders know someone close that passed away.
  - stevenwoo 4y ago
    Thanks that makes sense. I reexamined it and missed the tiny text along that graphic that indicates licensed riders doubled during part of that time period and the number of deaths increased 140% during the longer period of the graph so maybe the rate of death didn't change so much as a non varying proportion of motorcyclists deaths per mile, it's hard to tell.

simonsarris 4y ago

Truly strange that there's no mention of the Obama admin "reforming" CAFE standards in 2012 so that the larger the vehicle's footprint, the worse fuel standards it needed to be compliant. Every single automaker went the route of making their vehicles larger, that is, compliant. You can no longer buy a new small truck in the US which is very frustrating. The timeline for CAFE standards making America's most popular vehicles enormous tracks with the uptick on their graph. Though maybe it's something else. Someone down-thread suggested "meth" but vehicle size seems an awful lot more likely, especially since its motorcyclists and pedestrians that are dying.

froh 4y ago
strange indeed. maybe nobody mentioned it because the lower mpg requirement for "light trucks" was already in place since the 1980s? and even the drop in requirements accross the board in 2012 was already compensated for by 2014 and the mpg mileage was higher in 2014 than before and went further up ever since? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy the lack of small trucks could also be caused by dark marketing of larger, heavier vehicles as "more secure".

gcanyon 4y ago

Not Just Bikes on YouTube covers road/pedestrian/bike safety extensively. https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes Specific videos: Crossing the street should be safer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ByEBjf9ktY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ByEBjf9ktY How to quickly build a cycling city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-1YNAmWlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-1YNAmWlk Wasting money on car infrastructure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8 The wrong way to set speed limits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc Safe cycling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8F5hXqS-Ac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8F5hXqS-Ac "Stroads" are dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM

marcusverus 4y ago

How could you bring yourself to write such an article without referencing the ENORMOUS differences in miles driven per capita? Folks in the US drive at a rate more than 6x that of France, the UK, or Germany. With that in mind the differences cited are neither surprising nor particularly indicative of a uniquely dangerous driving experience. https://data.oecd.org/transport/passenger-transport.htm https://data.oecd.org/transport/passenger-transport.htm

QuarterReptile 4y ago
It does raise the question, however, of what all those extra miles are getting us.
- pandaman 4y ago
  Single family houses with front and back yards, more variety in stores, more choice in services, random businesses, which would not exist otherwise (you can have an underwater basket weaving studio in some strip mall and still get enough customers to pay rent since your customer base comes from 60+ miles radius), convenient access to parks and trails for pretty much everyone etc.
abigail95 4y ago
This is like saying you have more meth addicts because you smoke more meth. The solution of driving less doesn't seem useful or astute. It also doesn't explain why deaths went up as people drove less often during the pandemic.
trgn 4y ago
Man is measure of all things. That americans need to drive more to get their daily needs met, is not a mitigating factor. In fact, maybe it points at the root of the problem.
- marcusverus 4y ago
  My point was that this article is misleading. It criticizes US road design as unsafe and backs this up with misleading per-capita data. If you compared US road fatalities to Somalia on a per-capita basis, I bet they'd kick our asses, too! Not because they have safer roads, but because per-capita data introduces all sorts of extraneous variables (car ownership, miles driven, etc) that make it useless as a measure of road safety. The fact of the matter is that American roads twice as safe as European roads on a per-mile basis--which is the only meaningful way to measure road safety. So... why write an article about how unsafe American roads are relative to European roads when they are twice as safe?

ergvgdvgrd 4y ago

Floyd riots and defund the police. If your DA and politicians won't stand behind you, cops retreat to the donut/coffee shop. Completely logical response.

deadbolt 4y ago
The Floyd riots didn't have anything to do with police policing traffic.
- ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
  Police are people too. Just as Twitter employees were demoralized by Elon's behavior and it effected everything they did, so are police officers effected by morale. Traffic stops can escalate very quickly, but why do it when no one has your back?

nickpinkston 4y ago

While I'm sure the US probably does have some bad rates. (pedestrian deaths, etc. makes sense we're bad at) I'm unsure this really corrects for the other factors. How does this correct for average mileage spent in cars per per country? Seems like mostly a function of population density and wealth? ie maybe the US has low pop density and high wealth, so unlike the highlighted Japan/France (who have great public transit / rail), we can't justify it as much but people can still afford to use cars constantly. Judging based on traffic aggression, it would seem America is actually on the more chill side compared to what I've driven in across the world. I think their recommendations to change urban spaces to make them safer make sense though, so no argument there. More just wondering if maybe our car culture is kind of baked-in to our material conditions.