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Apple is becoming an ad company despite privacy claims
- jks 4y agoNextDNS has a "Native tracking protection" blocklist for Apple. Looking at my logs, it has blocked iadsdk.apple.com and many subdomains, and supportmetrics, securemetrics, books-analytics-events, weather-analytics-events (all under apple.com).
- andreysolsty 4y agoYou can be an ad company and respect your users privacy. They’re not mutually exclusive as the headline seems to suggest.
- smoldesu 4y agoCan you be an ad company and respect your users, though? Google and Microsoft failed to do this, not because they didn't protect their user's identity but because they kept squeezing for more and more cash when the UX was already hurting. I'm not confident that Apple can resist those temptations (judging by the way they treat their own native advertising).
- Someone 4y agoAdding advertising likely will cost them hardware sales. if so, their hardware branch might have enough clout to keep their advertising branch under control. Phrased another way: adding a few billions of advertising revenue wouldn’t make Apple an advertising company, just as selling smartphones hasn’t made Google a hardware company
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- smoldesu 4y agoThey already have advertising, at least in MacOS. Every time I put on my headphones I get a pop-up ad for Apple Music, and I can't hide iCloud or Safari's constant nagging to get me to use them. Everyone has their own limits, but I left the ecosystem after Mojave (with this being one reason).
- kaba0 4y agoI don’t know, is that really advertisement? These seems more akin to a program’s popup of its new features or that you can also go pro. Sure, nitpickingly these are ads, but they are related to the context, not intrusive, and not coming from a third party. If anything, it is more analogous to my friend telling me about that vacuum cleaner he bought that he finds a great buy when I bring up the topic of vacuum cleaners. Surely, it is still an ad, but you get the difference.
- Someone 4y agoIf “Every time I put on my headphones I get a pop-up ad for Apple Music” is true, don’t see how you could call that “not intrusive”. If I got an advertisement for a new iPhone every time I woke up my current one, IMO ‘intrusive’ would be too kind a word to use, too. I also think “related to the context” is debatable. Headphones aren’t only used to listen to music.
- kaba0 4y ago> If “Every time I put on my headphones I get a pop-up ad for Apple Music” is true, don’t see how you could call that “not intrusive”. It is not true, simple as that
- smoldesu 4y agoIt's been default for a few years now: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250789620 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250789620
- kaba0 4y agoThat’s a mac, and while I agree it is one of those pesky, annoying ones, it is likely more of an oversight/not enough people care thingy to count it as a bug. I use a mac and an iphone without apple music and never seen anything like that.
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- colordrops 4y agoUnsubstantiated claims can be responded to with unsubstantiated replies. Being an ad company and respecting user privacy are completely at odds. The incentives are misaligned.
- noizejoy 4y agoHow about companies that purely advertise via: * bill boards and similar * printed media ads * ads that respond to keyword searches - without relying on any other user data * display ads on topical websites (e.g. guitar ads on guitar related websites) - without relying on any other user data
- colordrops 4y agoThe first two do not have low latency high bandwidth connections (or often any connection at all) to the user to collect data, so it's not a reasonable comparison. As for the third, I understand that duck.com claims this, but I don't buy their claims, considering their behavior. None of these sites that claim to not collect user data should be trusted until they submit to a transparent audit that exposes all their infrastructure. As for the fourth, this is a tiny exception to the rule held up by some individual with standards. Apple doesn't fit the pattern of any of your examples.
- UncleEntity 4y agoHad anyone actually substantiated the claim about the unconfirmed non-disabling device ID beyond a single packet and theorizing about encrypted packets? Because the whole article is based on this evidence and peoples’ desire to dog pile on apple.
- uoaei 4y agoAre there any examples of this being done?
- jks 4y agohttps://www.ethicalads.io https://www.ethicalads.io I mean, I haven't audited their systems and haven't seen any reports from independent auditors, but at least they are making direct statements about privacy that the other ad networks aren't.
- fullshark 4y agoDuck Duck Go?
- uoaei 4y agoIs DDG generally considered "an ad company"?
- rPlayer6554 4y agoThat is the primary product they sell.
- nl 4y agoYes
- DoktorDelta 4y agohttps://www.komando.com/security-privacy/duckduckgo-is-tracking-you/839860/ https://www.komando.com/security-privacy/duckduckgo-is-track...
- someNameIG 4y agoThat wasn't for their ads on their search engine, but their browser. Even that link says the ads from their search engine are private. And iirc they have stopped doing that with the browser also.
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- pifm_guy 4y ago> be an ad company and respect your users privacy As an ad broker, you usually cannot. If you respect the users privacy, and another competing ad broker does not, then the competitor will make better ad placement decisions, get a higher click through rate, and give advertisers better ROI. Therefore, the ad broker that respects privacy will get less and less business and die. The only way an ad broker can respect privacy is if they can prevent any other ad broker operating in the same marketplace. Ie. You need to be a monopoly in your niche. Apple can do this by hobbling any other ad provider operating on iPhones or targeting iPhone user through their app store rules.
- account-5 4y agoI've always wondered how apple gets away with its monopolies when other companies don't/can't.
- MonkeyClub 4y agoI think they point in the general direction of Google's Play Store, and exclaim, "Here's another app store, hence we're not a monopoly", and then proceed to enjoy their monopoly.
- alexbeloi 4y agoThey aren't mutually exclusive, but their incentives are opposed, usually the incentives bringing in the money win.
- ksec 4y agoContext matters. In an ideal, sane, and rational situation, Yes. But not when Apple has themselves contributed, if not started the whole Ads, or Tracking is evil campaign.
- nawgz 4y agoAds are taking over the world because they're actually just a propaganda vehicle and control is the only thing worth money Regulation is too toothless to do anything about it so I think we'll naturally see all corporations evolve this way
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- ogsalmanxx 4y agoThis makes sense…
- medion 4y agoSad and true. Attention and value extraction from every aspect of human life is the only goal in corporatism. It’s never enough for these companies, endless growth is all that matters.
- uoaei 4y ago> control is the only thing worth money Indeed. Look at anything you or anyone spends money on. It all comes down to controlling your environment. The environment that corporations inhabit is structured in such a way as to demand user attention and data exploitation in order to survive.
- sfe22 4y agoAnd why would government fix it if ads are propaganda tool? Shouldn’t it start using it to advance its interest and fix bigger issues?
- denkmoon 4y agoPlease no. There is no refuge from the ads. Not for all the money in the world, apparently. This is the worst timeline. Can I pay 2x to get an ad-free iPhone? 3x? Surely there is some point where it makes sense to sell an ad free phone for those who _need_ to not see ads. They won't even take my money ;_;
- shrimp_emoji 4y agoThe only way out is buying devices on which you can flash and use OS/software that was built without profit as a goal (e.g., free software). Anything short of that and you're just sitting under the Sword of Damocles of value extraction, ripe to be used and abused (within personal tolerance or otherwise).
- denkmoon 4y agoI know you are right, but I've tried doing the de-googled Android thing (when I was an Android user even). It sucks, hard. Android is a pretty bad UX platform to begin with, and trying to make it work with free software is just... awful. I can't contribute because I only have so many hours in a day. I'd rather pay. I'd pay a boatload for an operating system that replaces Android with something that has a good user experience and has no ads.
- calciphus 4y agoI pay for a lifetime license on adguard, on Android. It is vanishing rare to see ads and the audit logs show how often and which apps are having their telemetry and other trackers blocked. It blocks a lot of Google stuff. That's the reason I stay with android. The Apple version of the app (which has to come through the app store) is not allowed to block anything for Apple apps or services. This they exempt themselves from user control.
- clnq 4y agoI am skeptical of apps claiming to block telemetry. There is a feedback loop that app/service developers like Adguard can use for blocking ads - if an ad shows up, they can look into blocking it. It's not the same for telemetry. There's no way to verify none is transmitted, and difficult to intercept it or distinguish it from essential traffic. Not all telemetry goes to an HTTP endpoint. Some telemetry-like fingerprinting data can be gathered from basic requests (like an email provider scanning email headers, a phone app developer screening spam calls/numbers, a password manager storing domains of your accounts, and so on). More can be sent along with basic requests. And there is much more data/telemetry engineers could do if the number of users interfering with their methods became statistically significant. I don't mean to fearmonger. I believe that most telemetry gathered is harmless to any particular user and is just used by data scientists and MBAs trying to see trends they can exploit in their business strategy. Ads probably have a much larger impact on an individual (emotional and mental effects), and there is value to ad-blocking services like Adguard. Still, apps claiming to block tracking, fingerprinting, and telemetry seem to target a very naive audience.
- UltraViolence 4y agoYou know Apple's mantra: "Don't leave money on the table." I'm totally not surprised about this, although it will hurt their privacy USP (unique selling point).
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- stephc_int13 4y agoWith an accountant at the head of the company, what would you expect? They also have too much power, too much money, not enough competition and a deteriorating company culture. But aside from their dominance, they also have a few gems, their bet on ARM is paying off big time.
- ml_basics 4y ago> a deteriorating company culture Could you elaborate on this? Genuine question, because how Apple is so successful is a complete mystery to me. I worked there during the pandemic and my experience was that there is no company culture, it's just a bunch of totally siloed small teams. Culture grows as a result of people speaking to each other, which I didn't really see happening. Could be that I was in a particularly siloed part though.
- NBJack 4y agoSilo'd teams that don't talk to each other? That sounds like a sign the culture is already deteriorating, or the lack of communication is inherently part of the culture. I'd be curious as to how the iOS team would be independent of the hardware team or the app dev experience teams. I suspect your team experience was a corner case.
- frankjr 4y agoWho is clicking on these ads? Or do companies pay for the ad to just show up? I have never in my life intentionally clicked on an ad.
- seaal 4y agoI just recently clicked on an App Store ad for the first time. It was on a desperate search for an IPTV that didn’t suck. I was hoping it might be good considering the dev was paying for ads, it was not.
- asadotzler 4y agoNot all ads are about click-through. Impressions can be a goal by itself for some who are seeking brand recognition benefits in addition to or even as an alternative to clicks or installs.
- jcadam 4y agoI wish they would spin off their hardware business. Or at least their Mac business.
- secretprocess 4y agoFunny, if you make it to the end of the article the entire thing is an ad for Proton.
- ViceCitySage 4y agoApple's "privacy" is really just data protection from other competing companies. It was just another marketing campaign to maintain their positive image.
- yarg 4y agoIt's the carcinisation of the modern corporation.
- noizejoy 4y agoLovely free advertising for Proton. Very smart blog post, since numerous employees and fans of Apple competitors, as well as anyone who dislikes Apple for whatever reason, has plenty motivation to upvote this post. Also: Calling someone an ad company when approximately 1% of revenue seems to be generated by ads would seem quite a stretch. Also: Being tracked while on someone’s property isn’t exactly the same as tracking someone across unrelated properties. Also: Every company with a decent CRM system and culture has been tracking all kinds of (often personal) details about their (potential) customers gathered from their interactions and whatever sources they could get their hands on. This has been going on since before the Internet was widely used. But while this blog post (attack ad?) doesn’t seem to have that much meaningful substance, it’s also kind of just doing the same to Apple as Apple often does to others.
- politelemon 4y agoAlso: Yet I see many comments rushing to perform mental gymnastics on their behalf. There are several attributes here that match up exactly with other companies that are somehow vilified. The blog post is on point, the user have been in denial for a long time and will continue to be.
- noizejoy 4y ago> Also: Yet I see many comments rushing to perform mental gymnastics on their behalf. There are several attributes here that match up exactly with other companies that are somehow vilified. The blog post is on point, the user have been in denial for a long time and will continue to be. I’m all in favour of calling out Apple on their crap. But Apple’s evils aren’t the same as Google’s and Meta’s evils. I just prefer my conversations and criticisms to be more nuanced, rather than brushing everyone with the same simplistic brush. Also: Calling users to be in denial is a cheap attack. The reality is, that all of us users live in a world filled with nothing but imperfect choices. — So all we can do is pick our poison according to our personal priorities and preferences at any given time.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago> Also: Being tracked while on someone’s property isn’t exactly the same as tracking someone across unrelated properties. Do you consider Apple-made devices property of their buyers or do they forever remain property of Apple?
- mrmister00 4y agoProton mail doing a little advertising of their own through a blog post. lol
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- kaba0 4y agoIs there any actual substance to these posts, or is this just the usual scare tactics? Because something similar is posted almost daily. Besides perhaps an Apple Music “ad”, I haven’t seen anything factual.
- irtefa 4y agoThis is sadly the beginning of the end of Apple.
- grahamjperrin 4y agoA somewhat careless, reactionary blog post. "… On Nov. 20, a pair of iOS developers known as Mysk discovered that Apple has a specific identifier (a “directory services identifier” or DSID) for every Apple iCloud account. …" – as if Mysk discovered this. Not so. DSID-related analysis was performed more than seven months earlier – by a group of five researchers, including four at the University of Oxford. Konrad Kollnig, Anastasia Shuba, Max Van Kleek, Reuben Binns, and Nigel Shadbolt. 2022. Goodbye Tracking? Impact of iOS App Tracking Transparency and Privacy Labels. In 2022 ACM Conference on Fairness, Accountability, and Transparency (FAccT '22). Association for Computing Machinery, New York, NY, USA, 508–520. https://doi.org/10.1145/3531146.3533116 https://doi.org/10.1145/3531146.3533116 (Version 1 was submitted on 7th April 2022.)