6 ms·
This space before the colon and other marks in French should actually be a narrow non-breaking space (U+202F) [0]. There's no key for it in the AZERTY layout.
by rodelrod 4y ago
This space before the colon and other marks in French should actually be a narrow non-breaking space (U+202F) [0]. There's no key for it in the AZERTY layout.
This has been a problem since the typewriter age. People having to get on with their jobs coped with it by using a full, breaking em-space. Unless this gets replaced automatically by the word processor, you get horrid typography and misplaced line breaks all over the place.
The Académie Française should have dealt with this years ago, if their ass wasn't stuck in the 17th century.
[0] https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+202F https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+202F
- keybored 4y ago> Especially simple since all double punctuations (:?!; those that require an nbsp before them) are also accessed with SHIFT. I just tested with `setxkmap fr`. These are not shifted: :!; Only this requires Shift: ? Also French layouts use an inverted number row (although none of those are accessed through that row).
- keybored 4y agoCorrection: `setxkbmap fr`.
- TheRealPomax 4y agoThis sounds like it's not actually true? If it was, the French code page 646 that we used until Unicode finally won would have included a narrow space, but it doesn't. "Regular" computer text in French has only ever used a normal space, even if handwriting and/or "true" typesetting using typesetting solutions like TeX or PageMaker etc. allowed for a narrow space.
- rodelrod 4y agoThis is mostly correct, but I don't see how it contradicts my statement. Did the 646 standard account for variable-width characters at all?
- TheRealPomax 4y agoNot so much contradict as wondering about the claim that it should be a specific Unicode codepoint when Unicode wasn't around when we started "computering" text (and the Académie Française can't have possibly formally declared things in terms of Unicode =) What are the actual official rules in this case (and are there links to those? Because that'd be fascinating information to read through)?
- rodelrod 4y agoBest reference I could find is here: https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable Actually before the ":" specifically there should be a regular non-breaking space, not a narrow one. Except in Switzerland. Other punctuation marks take the narrow non-breaking space.
- TheRealPomax 4y agoLove how it's "recommandé", "pour des raisons esthétiques." Which I guess means we're completely free to ignore it. Pour mêmes raisons =P
- pcdavid 4y agoFWIW, LibreOffice automatically inserts an actual Unicode NO-BREAK SPACE when I type ":" at the end of a word (if the language is set for French of course). If I insert an actual SPACE and then hit ":", it even replaces the SPACE with a NO-BREAK SPACE. I'd be surprised MS Word doesn't do the same. No need for a "true" typesetting solution.
- rodelrod 4y agoI think the point of the GP is that it inserts NO-BREAK SPACE instead of a NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE. If that's the case, it's a bug.
- dieulot 4y agoThis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_1010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_1010 There’s no space for it nor for many other more useful characters (like â).
- bombcar 4y agoCodepages are from back in the era of little memory available and monospaced fonts. And another "US English" centered thing; spacing does not really matter in English, but can have functional differences in other languages and scripts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yWWFLI5kFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yWWFLI5kFU is a fun look at one of the problems with Unicode in general.
- sdeframond 4y agoOr, word processors could understand that the pattern "some-chars" + <whitespace> + ":" must be treated as a single word in French. (I guess it's more complicated than I imagine it is, alright)
- makapuf 4y agoAnd thus impossible to use the emoji inserting feature, and other bugs (silently replacing whitespace with different but looking the same whitespace will make for fun issues)
- c80e74f077 4y agoWell, double colon :: is just as convenient, make more sense and not a problem in either French or English. Even in English, you might want to stick an emoji to the previous word. Like Hell::devil:: (my nephew would like that though).
- troglodynellc 4y agoDouble colon would make talking about perl even worse (:: is namespace separator) -- it's already bad enough that any namespace starting with D becomes an emoticon in pretty much all online editors. This stuff should just stop. Operating Systems / Browser vendors should instead standardize on a hotkey to bring up an emoji selector that steals focus to filter via typing and inserts on enter key.
- sdeframond 4y ago
- jobigoud 4y agoA modern solution is simply to have non-breaking space easily accessible in your keyboard layout for when you need it. In the BÉPO layout this is at SHIFT + space. Especially simple since all double punctuations (:?!; those that require an nbsp before them) are also accessed with SHIFT.
- Normille 4y ago>A modern solution is simply to have non-breaking space easily accessible in your keyboard layout An even better solution would be --for grown up people who have progressed beyond cave-painting and want to communicate using, you know, actual words-- to be able to disable emojis completely. Fucking moronic shite that they are. I've seen people on Twatter and FB have entire conversations in bloody emojis. Talk about reverse evolution! Why don't we just go back to grunting and gesturing and have done with it?
- benj111 4y agoI'm surprising myself by saying this, but emoji are pretty useful in certain contexts. Certainly more useful than the requirement to put a space before a colon, non breaking or not.
- xboxnolifes 4y agoI guess you only speak monotonically and avoid interpreting pitch, pauses, and physical cues in conversation as well, since those would be archaic, right?
- Normille 4y agosmiley face. crying face. row of hearts in different colours. strange yellow thing that might be a banana or an arm flexing its bicep. sports trophy. winking face. My god! --you're right. This is so much better and clearer than using those boring old fashioned words.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
- cryptonector 4y agoIf you fail to put a space before a colon when writing in French, what happens next? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would French speakers accept this as a better way to use the colon character? It looks like this rule is based on old typographic considerations. Much like the Spanish Royal Academy's rule that capitalized letters carry no accents (unlike the opposite French rule that capitalized letters do carry accents!), which stems from typewriters not having accented letters, so one would type a vowel, backspace, then an apostrophe to make an accented vowel, but for capitals there's not enough space so you couldn't and wouldn't overstrike them. Users and language academies should distinguish typographic from non-typographic language rules, and typographic rules should be context-specific (well technology-specific, since technology is the context).
- shakow 4y agoI don't know, what would happen in English if you didn't capitalize the days of the week? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would English speakers accept this as a better way to write the days of the week? No human language on Earth is in a position where it can laughs at others for their idiomatisms.
- wewtyflakes 4y agoI do not think that was their point (to laugh at other languages), but rather, that there may be contemporary situations in which warrant rethinking the idioms of a language. As an aside, I do not think many people who speak english would even notice a lack of capitalization for the days of the week.
- cryptonector 4y agoI've had colleagues who refuse to use capitals in most cases. And yet their writing is completely comprehensible.
- rich_sasha 4y ago> As an aside, I do not think many people who speak english would even notice a lack of English
- Aissen 4y agoThis is partially false, because there isn't one true AZERTY layout. There are various platform implementations, with MS Windows being the most common. In fact, french standard body AFNOR actually updated their AZERTY layout standard three years ago to include more characters, including the narrow non-breaking space. In traditional ISO-like fashion, one must pay to access this standard, but you can find an example here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_-_AZERTY_-_AFNOR.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_-_AZERTY_-_AFNOR.... It's mapped to AltGr + Maj + Space. Now you just need to find how to install/enable this layout on the platforms you care about.
- rodelrod 4y agoCORRECTION: narrow non-breaking space goes before ";", "!" and "?". Before ":" you should use regular non-breaking space. That is, in France. In French-speaking Switzerland it's a narrow non-breaking space everywhere. This is the best reference I could find: https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable https://www.lalanguefrancaise.com/articles/espace-insecable