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>The big question is—will this $599 desktop be enough to push more developers towards cross-compiling for native ARM64 software on Windows? No, more consumer h

>The big question is—will this $599 desktop be enough to push more developers towards cross-compiling for native ARM64 software on Windows? No, more consumer hardware like the Surface series will push devs. Who will eventually want to get out of the x86 emulation layer and run their programs native. Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all, and Microsoft is limited by what Qualcomm et al can put out.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Nope, it won't, as you say. How many people have Surface Pro X, or another Windows on ARM machine? Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that. So... when you factor in costs of Project Volterra + Developer Time + Fixing Code Time + Lost Opportunities on More Productive Things... there's basically no way, even with 1 million users at $1 each, to justify the effort. This device is great for developers who already care and love their users. Anyone who doesn't care won't care. Edit: Also, at those numbers, it would be better if I didn't offer an ARM-native version. If even a tiny percentage of my userbase downloads the ARM-native version by accident on their x86 machine, the support costs will eat away at that too. Edit @bartlettD: We're not - sorry if it reads that way. I'm just providing an additional argument, but I've reworded slightly to make that a bit clearer.
- bartlettD 4y ago
  I don't think we're disagreeing. Devs have no incentive to develop for ARM if there is no market share like you said, so they're not going to buy a $599 kit and its existence won't sway them either. I think there will come a time when the number of ARM Windows machines increases though. This kit is useful for the devs who care about the performance of their programs on ARM kit but they'll only optimise for it if the market is there.
- dboreham 4y ago
  > How many people have Surface Pro X <raises hand>
- jve 4y ago
  It takes 1 CEO of Windows ARM device for dogfooding own software to ARM :) Anyways, what I noticed is that CxOs started to carry Apple MacBooks around and sysadmins just had to deal with it.
- giaour 4y ago
  > Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that. Not disputing your numbers, but for devs writing web services or cloud workloads, compiling for arm can mean spending a lot less on VMs. If I were writing software that had to run on Windows Server on ARM, I would probably want one of these devices for local development.
Kukumber 4y ago
why would you use windows nowadays? why would you use windows with ARM? m1 mini let's you build apps for the biggest OS on the market (iOS) macOS is the industry standard when it comes to audio/photo/video production office? everyone uses a web interface, even slack has a web interface and it makes even more sense to compare both, specially considering we are headed towards a giant recession due to rising cost of energy and the anti-carbon policies that will come will affect the companies that are wasting energy with inefficient machines it's mindbloging that people put this much energy defending qualcomm contract, it literally is putting the west at a disadvantage against China it makes perfect sense to compare it with the apple chip, you are blind if you think otherwise, to stay polite
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  > why would you use windows nowadays? PC games, plain and simple.
- neogodless 4y ago
  https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share Android 42% Windows 30% iOS 18% > everyone uses a web interface Can you provide some global statistics for this claim? I don't believe it's accurate, but I don't have a good way to measure or disprove it.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines it even dropped in revenue in their latest report https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-msft-q1-earnings-report-2023-11666660897 https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-msft-q1-earnings-repo...
    - bilekas 4y ago
      > windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines Have you ever worked in an enterprise environment ?
  - 4y ago
bpye 4y ago
I work for MSFT and have been using an SPX as my primary device for a little over a year. I haven’t had an issue with user space applications, but I do have an audio interface that doesn’t work because the vendor (MOTU) doesn’t ship ARM64 drivers :(
- csdvrx 4y ago
  It's sad. I'm using a USB-C to 4.5mm TRRS audio dongle, and if you can't get audio drivers, I fear my "exotic" setup is even less likely to be supported. I've been wanting to try Windows 11 on ARM64 with a Microsoft or a Lenovo device, but nothing seems to have the basics I'm looking for like OLED for a laptop, or ECC (for both a laptop or a server) If there were ARM64 options with ECC RAM, I'd buy that today and start deploying tomorrow.
  - bpye 4y ago
    The only ARM64 option with ECC that I know of is Ampere's rather expensive development workstation [0]. [0] - https://solutions.amperecomputing.com/systems/altra/kraken-comhpc-WS https://solutions.amperecomputing.com/systems/altra/kraken-c...
- mjard 4y ago
  Does windows not provide a generic "class compliant" audio driver? I'm amazed it works so well everywhere else if Microsoft doesn't support it.
  - bpye 4y ago
    I went down this path. Yes, Windows includes an inbox USB audio class driver, but it lacks support for implicit feedback. The MOTU interface does not have a feedback endpoint, and relies on implicit feedback, so the inbox driver doesn't work. I think the inbox driver does work for Focusrite's interfaces - I guess they include the feedback endpoint, and both Linux and macOS support implicit feedback so MOTU's devices work there. Apple actually recommend implicit feedback only [0]. [0] - https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2274/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40010116-CH1-TNTAG4_3 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2274...
elorant 4y ago
Speaking for myself, it’s not an ARM desktop PC what I need, but an ARM server. Make those highly available and then I’ll start developing/porting my code on ARM.
- empraptor 4y ago
  Microsoft had preview for ARM64 Azure VMs earlier this year. Not sure if they've gone beyond that. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/now-in-preview-azure-virtual-machines-with-ampere-altra-armbased-processors/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/now-in-preview-azure-...
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Pretty much all the cloud providers have ARM options these days, even the smaller ones.
- cylinder714 4y ago
  Foxconn, Gigabyte and Supermicro make Ampere Altra-based servers: https://amperecomputing.com/reference-platforms/ampere-altra-platforms-for-modern-compute/ https://amperecomputing.com/reference-platforms/ampere-altra...
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    It's hard to get from usual companies like Lenovo, Dell, HP etc. I just want ARM64 with ECC and the ability to put quite few NVMe inside (U2 or M2, doesn't matter that much)
  - elorant 4y ago
    I've seen those, but they cost a fortune. Even the smallest 32core CPU with 128GB RAM and a couple of nvme ssds costs more than 10k.
- JimmyAustin 4y ago
  AWS has them: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/, and you can run Lambdas with ARM. Disclaimer: I work for Amazon (not in AWS).
cooldown_00001 4y ago
> Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all, and Microsoft is limited by what Qualcomm et al can put out. Microsoft is a multi billion dollar company, they are not limited, they made a bad business decision to depend on a 3rd party to build chips for them Their products are meant to be competitive against the competition, they should be compared for what they are, computers
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Venturing into a product category just because your competitor is doing the same is not great motivation, and is a distraction at best. Microsoft has no interest in selling computers[1] in large volumes: it's long-term OEM partners may not appreciate Microsoft cranking out computers in anger. The Surface line seems to be a Halo product for Windows, or examplar to OEMs (and I'm guessing Microsoft mostly works as an integrator of existing parts made by other manufacturers). 1. Renting them out via Azure definitely interests them.
robotnikman 4y ago
I don't have much faith in Qualcomm putting out a decent ARM processor any time soon. They have coasted for a while on pricey contracts and patents and their recent processors for the last few years are nowhere close to the M1 in performance, let alone the M2.
- ac29 4y ago
  They bought Nuvia last year, an ARM chip startup with a bunch of ex-Apple ARM folks. We'll see how it turns out, but the acquisition suggests they are serious about improving performance.
scarface74 4y ago
Why exactly isn’t the Mac Mini competing with this? No one cares that Microsoft is “limited to what Qualcomm can ship” anymore than anyone cared that Apple was limited to what IBM/Motorola could ship back in the PPC era. The fact remains that the fastest way to run Windows ARM is on an Mx Mac in a VM.

gjsman-1000 4y ago

Nope, it won't, as you say. How many people have Surface Pro X, or another Windows on ARM machine? Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that. So... when you factor in costs of Project Volterra + Developer Time + Fixing Code Time + Lost Opportunities on More Productive Things... there's basically no way, even with 1 million users at $1 each, to justify the effort. This device is great for developers who already care and love their users. Anyone who doesn't care won't care. Edit: Also, at those numbers, it would be better if I didn't offer an ARM-native version. If even a tiny percentage of my userbase downloads the ARM-native version by accident on their x86 machine, the support costs will eat away at that too. Edit @bartlettD: We're not - sorry if it reads that way. I'm just providing an additional argument, but I've reworded slightly to make that a bit clearer.

bartlettD 4y ago
I don't think we're disagreeing. Devs have no incentive to develop for ARM if there is no market share like you said, so they're not going to buy a $599 kit and its existence won't sway them either. I think there will come a time when the number of ARM Windows machines increases though. This kit is useful for the devs who care about the performance of their programs on ARM kit but they'll only optimise for it if the market is there.
dboreham 4y ago
> How many people have Surface Pro X <raises hand>
jve 4y ago
It takes 1 CEO of Windows ARM device for dogfooding own software to ARM :) Anyways, what I noticed is that CxOs started to carry Apple MacBooks around and sysadmins just had to deal with it.
giaour 4y ago
> Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that. Not disputing your numbers, but for devs writing web services or cloud workloads, compiling for arm can mean spending a lot less on VMs. If I were writing software that had to run on Windows Server on ARM, I would probably want one of these devices for local development.

Kukumber 4y ago

why would you use windows nowadays? why would you use windows with ARM? m1 mini let's you build apps for the biggest OS on the market (iOS) macOS is the industry standard when it comes to audio/photo/video production office? everyone uses a web interface, even slack has a web interface and it makes even more sense to compare both, specially considering we are headed towards a giant recession due to rising cost of energy and the anti-carbon policies that will come will affect the companies that are wasting energy with inefficient machines it's mindbloging that people put this much energy defending qualcomm contract, it literally is putting the west at a disadvantage against China it makes perfect sense to compare it with the apple chip, you are blind if you think otherwise, to stay polite

flohofwoe 4y ago
> why would you use windows nowadays? PC games, plain and simple.
neogodless 4y ago
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share Android 42% Windows 30% iOS 18% > everyone uses a web interface Can you provide some global statistics for this claim? I don't believe it's accurate, but I don't have a good way to measure or disprove it.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines it even dropped in revenue in their latest report https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-msft-q1-earnings-report-2023-11666660897 https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-msft-q1-earnings-repo...
  - bilekas 4y ago
    > windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines Have you ever worked in an enterprise environment ?
- 4y ago

bpye 4y ago

I work for MSFT and have been using an SPX as my primary device for a little over a year. I haven’t had an issue with user space applications, but I do have an audio interface that doesn’t work because the vendor (MOTU) doesn’t ship ARM64 drivers :(

csdvrx 4y ago
It's sad. I'm using a USB-C to 4.5mm TRRS audio dongle, and if you can't get audio drivers, I fear my "exotic" setup is even less likely to be supported. I've been wanting to try Windows 11 on ARM64 with a Microsoft or a Lenovo device, but nothing seems to have the basics I'm looking for like OLED for a laptop, or ECC (for both a laptop or a server) If there were ARM64 options with ECC RAM, I'd buy that today and start deploying tomorrow.
- bpye 4y ago
  The only ARM64 option with ECC that I know of is Ampere's rather expensive development workstation [0]. [0] - https://solutions.amperecomputing.com/systems/altra/kraken-comhpc-WS https://solutions.amperecomputing.com/systems/altra/kraken-c...
mjard 4y ago
Does windows not provide a generic "class compliant" audio driver? I'm amazed it works so well everywhere else if Microsoft doesn't support it.
- bpye 4y ago
  I went down this path. Yes, Windows includes an inbox USB audio class driver, but it lacks support for implicit feedback. The MOTU interface does not have a feedback endpoint, and relies on implicit feedback, so the inbox driver doesn't work. I think the inbox driver does work for Focusrite's interfaces - I guess they include the feedback endpoint, and both Linux and macOS support implicit feedback so MOTU's devices work there. Apple actually recommend implicit feedback only [0]. [0] - https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2274/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40010116-CH1-TNTAG4_3 https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2274...

elorant 4y ago

Speaking for myself, it’s not an ARM desktop PC what I need, but an ARM server. Make those highly available and then I’ll start developing/porting my code on ARM.

empraptor 4y ago
Microsoft had preview for ARM64 Azure VMs earlier this year. Not sure if they've gone beyond that. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/now-in-preview-azure-virtual-machines-with-ampere-altra-armbased-processors/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/now-in-preview-azure-...
nicoburns 4y ago
Pretty much all the cloud providers have ARM options these days, even the smaller ones.
cylinder714 4y ago
Foxconn, Gigabyte and Supermicro make Ampere Altra-based servers: https://amperecomputing.com/reference-platforms/ampere-altra-platforms-for-modern-compute/ https://amperecomputing.com/reference-platforms/ampere-altra...
- csdvrx 4y ago
  It's hard to get from usual companies like Lenovo, Dell, HP etc. I just want ARM64 with ECC and the ability to put quite few NVMe inside (U2 or M2, doesn't matter that much)
- elorant 4y ago
  I've seen those, but they cost a fortune. Even the smallest 32core CPU with 128GB RAM and a couple of nvme ssds costs more than 10k.
JimmyAustin 4y ago
AWS has them: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/, and you can run Lambdas with ARM. Disclaimer: I work for Amazon (not in AWS).

cooldown_00001 4y ago

> Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all, and Microsoft is limited by what Qualcomm et al can put out. Microsoft is a multi billion dollar company, they are not limited, they made a bad business decision to depend on a 3rd party to build chips for them Their products are meant to be competitive against the competition, they should be compared for what they are, computers

sangnoir 4y ago
Venturing into a product category just because your competitor is doing the same is not great motivation, and is a distraction at best. Microsoft has no interest in selling computers[1] in large volumes: it's long-term OEM partners may not appreciate Microsoft cranking out computers in anger. The Surface line seems to be a Halo product for Windows, or examplar to OEMs (and I'm guessing Microsoft mostly works as an integrator of existing parts made by other manufacturers). 1. Renting them out via Azure definitely interests them.

robotnikman 4y ago

I don't have much faith in Qualcomm putting out a decent ARM processor any time soon. They have coasted for a while on pricey contracts and patents and their recent processors for the last few years are nowhere close to the M1 in performance, let alone the M2.

ac29 4y ago
They bought Nuvia last year, an ARM chip startup with a bunch of ex-Apple ARM folks. We'll see how it turns out, but the acquisition suggests they are serious about improving performance.

scarface74 4y ago

Why exactly isn’t the Mac Mini competing with this? No one cares that Microsoft is “limited to what Qualcomm can ship” anymore than anyone cared that Apple was limited to what IBM/Motorola could ship back in the PPC era. The fact remains that the fastest way to run Windows ARM is on an Mx Mac in a VM.