6 ms·

Show HN: Docker in the browser using x86-to-WASM recompilation

119 points by g3 4y ago

ffhhj 4y ago
Could this be used for GPU computation?
- stopdropnhotpot 4y ago
  Depends on the browser. There's standards here but not everyone is conforming.
franky47 4y ago
Gary Bernhardt's talk [1] is becoming more and more of a premonition. [1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...
spyremeown 4y ago
This is awesome, we have come full circle.
- zakember 4y ago
  Not until we can have a browser within this docker container
  - 8jy89hui 4y ago
    JSLinux [0] can run a whole Alpine Linux distribution with a x window server and a built in browser. We are already past the days of browsers within operating systems within browsers. [0]: https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/
  - mbreese 4y ago
    I don't see a network connection on the Docker host, so we have a little way to go yet. (Unless someone knows how to access the network?)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - revskill 4y ago
    Then stack overflow error is expected.
  - ASalazarMX 4y ago
    This is how we killed Moore's law. It stopped but we didn't.
MobiusHorizons 4y ago
If you already have x86 to WASM, what do you need docker for? Seems like you already have all the encapsulation you could want at that point.
- g3 4y ago
  It makes for a cool demo (and it's a reference to the recent "wasm in docker" announcement).
  - piersj225 4y ago
    Link for anyone curious https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530
- noname120 4y ago
  Docker is not just a container runner, it's also an API for interacting with them, a container creation language (Dockerfile), and more. Being able to run Docker enables you to get access to all these tools and build the Docker containers from other projects.
- _jal 4y ago
  There's a generation of people who appear to treat docker images as a combined packaging/distribution mechanism. Instead of learning to create a .deb or .rpm, they write a dockerfile. I tend not to use that sort of thing, but not just because of docker - there's a bundle of related practices that tend to turn my eye elsewhere. YMMV.
  - dboreham 4y ago
    Resistance is futile.
  - polotics 4y ago
    It's very true. However what is intrinsically better about a .deb or .rpm apart from having been there first? Are they the epitome of something? This is an honest question, I am really not sure. I vaguely remember that making an rpm was unpleasant and not very well documented, but it's been about ten yeats now...
adpirz 4y ago
v86 also featured by supabase running postgres in the browser: https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm
g3 4y ago
If you're bored (or your code is still compiling), you can also try: SerenityOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity (one of their developers contributed PAE support to v86, which is extra cool. I believe it contains their own browser.) ReactOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos Haiku: https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku 9front: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front Android: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android KolibriOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios HelenOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos Oberon: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon QNX: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx Windows 95 with IE 3: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot Windows 98 with IE 5: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 (run networking.bat) Windows 2000 with IE 6: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 (run networking.bat) v86 running in v86 (the inner one is running in node): https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js As well as most BSDs and Linuxes, as long as they still have i686 support.
- s-macke 4y ago
  Can you explain in more detail how this recompilation works? When is it triggered? Because your emulator is still very slow, and recompiling doesn't seem to help. A wiki or blog post would be helpful.
  - g3 4y ago
    Yes, I should write about v86's internals some day. Meanwhile, the code is right here: https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust It's much faster with recompilation than without, but I agree that it's slower than expected (compared to, for example, qemu-tcg). There is still room for improvements (e.g. eflags updates, 16-bit instructions, call/ret optimisations, main loop), but part of the problem is limitations of web assembly (no mmap, only structured control flow) and browser engines (memory blow up on large generated wasm modules, related to control flow). The webvm folks explain the control flow problem quite well, and seem to be doing a better job than v86: https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing-browsers-to-their-absolute-limits-56a393435323 https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing...

119 points by g3 4y ago

ffhhj 4y ago

Could this be used for GPU computation?

stopdropnhotpot 4y ago
Depends on the browser. There's standards here but not everyone is conforming.

franky47 4y ago

Gary Bernhardt's talk [1] is becoming more and more of a premonition. [1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

spyremeown 4y ago

This is awesome, we have come full circle.

zakember 4y ago
Not until we can have a browser within this docker container
- 8jy89hui 4y ago
  JSLinux [0] can run a whole Alpine Linux distribution with a x window server and a built in browser. We are already past the days of browsers within operating systems within browsers. [0]: https://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://bellard.org/jslinux/
- mbreese 4y ago
  I don't see a network connection on the Docker host, so we have a little way to go yet. (Unless someone knows how to access the network?)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- revskill 4y ago
  Then stack overflow error is expected.
- ASalazarMX 4y ago
  This is how we killed Moore's law. It stopped but we didn't.

MobiusHorizons 4y ago

If you already have x86 to WASM, what do you need docker for? Seems like you already have all the encapsulation you could want at that point.

g3 4y ago
It makes for a cool demo (and it's a reference to the recent "wasm in docker" announcement).
- piersj225 4y ago
  Link for anyone curious https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33320530
noname120 4y ago
Docker is not just a container runner, it's also an API for interacting with them, a container creation language (Dockerfile), and more. Being able to run Docker enables you to get access to all these tools and build the Docker containers from other projects.
_jal 4y ago
There's a generation of people who appear to treat docker images as a combined packaging/distribution mechanism. Instead of learning to create a .deb or .rpm, they write a dockerfile. I tend not to use that sort of thing, but not just because of docker - there's a bundle of related practices that tend to turn my eye elsewhere. YMMV.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Resistance is futile.
- polotics 4y ago
  It's very true. However what is intrinsically better about a .deb or .rpm apart from having been there first? Are they the epitome of something? This is an honest question, I am really not sure. I vaguely remember that making an rpm was unpleasant and not very well documented, but it's been about ten yeats now...

adpirz 4y ago

v86 also featured by supabase running postgres in the browser: https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm https://supabase.com/blog/postgres-wasm

g3 4y ago

If you're bored (or your code is still compiling), you can also try: SerenityOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=serenity (one of their developers contributed PAE support to v86, which is extra cool. I believe it contains their own browser.) ReactOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=reactos Haiku: https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=haiku 9front: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=9front Android: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=android KolibriOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios HelenOS: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=helenos Oberon: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=oberon QNX: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=qnx Windows 95 with IE 3: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows95-boot Windows 98 with IE 5: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows98 (run networking.bat) Windows 2000 with IE 6: http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 http://copy.sh/v86/?profile=windows2000 (run networking.bat) v86 running in v86 (the inner one is running in node): https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=archlinux&c=./v86-in-v86.js As well as most BSDs and Linuxes, as long as they still have i686 support.

s-macke 4y ago
Can you explain in more detail how this recompilation works? When is it triggered? Because your emulator is still very slow, and recompiling doesn't seem to help. A wiki or blog post would be helpful.
- g3 4y ago
  Yes, I should write about v86's internals some day. Meanwhile, the code is right here: https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust https://github.com/copy/v86/tree/master/src/rust It's much faster with recompilation than without, but I agree that it's slower than expected (compared to, for example, qemu-tcg). There is still room for improvements (e.g. eflags updates, 16-bit instructions, call/ret optimisations, main loop), but part of the problem is limitations of web assembly (no mmap, only structured control flow) and browser engines (memory blow up on large generated wasm modules, related to control flow). The webvm folks explain the control flow problem quite well, and seem to be doing a better job than v86: https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing-browsers-to-their-absolute-limits-56a393435323 https://medium.com/leaningtech/extreme-webassembly-1-pushing...