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Tor Project Board Member is CEO of Company Selling Capability for Attribution

metadat 4y ago
While I can appreciate the measured tone in TFA, at some point you've got to take a step back and ask what the hell is going on. This instance reeks of an egregious conflict of interest and this response is negligent on behalf of the board. The current TOR Board scenario is akin to having a known child-abusing relative babysit your own kid, catching them inexplicably sitting with the kid alone in a darkened room in a state of undress, then saying: "Well, this is strange.. but we can't prove you were planning anything malicious this time around. As you were, mate!" Sometimes a harsh response is warranted to preserve integrity of that which is important. This is one of those times. My confidence in TOR was already kind of low, now how can I trust and be assured the lack of firm response isn't due to integrity already being compromised and no longer the main priority? The public trust in TOR is EVERYTHING the project has*. * had
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  Hard disagree. The measured tone in TFA is how adults debate issues. Invoking phrases like "child-abusing relative" and "kid alone in a darkened room in a state of undress" is the kind of hyperbole that sites like Twitter and HN love to employ that reduce the quality of conversations and how threads turn into shouting matches. Ask yourself how the hyperbole you engage in leads to "curious conversation", how you're "assuming good faith", and how you're "eschewing flamebait". Because TFA seems to invoke curious conversation and good faith and your hyperbolic analogies just seem like ideological-battle oriented flamebait. > Sometimes a harsh response is warranted to preserve integrity of that which is important. This is one of those times. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly against "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." P.S. As a long time HN reader/user, these hyperbolic flamebait comments in the service of political ends are exactly the kinds of comments that I find degrade this site the most. When people complain about this site turning into Reddit, it's these kinds of comments I think about.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    OPs comment wasn’t just off the cuff emotionally charged rhetoric though. They acknowledged that there are times for a measured response, and there are times that a measured response is inappropriate. That outrage and pitchfork wielding are appropriate responses. They made the case that this was one of those times. I agree.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
      The comment would have been better without the strained analogy. One counter argument to the gp might be something like: this is exactly the kind of expertise The Tor Project should want to consult.
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        Ooh, I like that. That’s why I come to HN, it’s the angles I would have never considered.
        TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        Thanks! Made my day :)
    - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
      Bring enough people together with varied enough opinions and each of them will feel their own personal deep concerns are worth wielding pitchforks for. Eventually every conflict will involve pitchforks and the temperature of any discussion will be high enough that all you have are flames whereupon conflicts will just be hidden from public view and taken care of under the table so as not to risk the public flames of wrath.
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        Welcome to the internet. It’s pitchforks all the way down, baby
- thrown_22 4y ago
  Tor was taken over by the CIA a while ago when they purged the old hacker board for "inappropriate behavior towards women": https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/jacob-appelbaum-tor-project-sexual-assault-allegations https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/jacob-app... You know, the same thing they did to Assange. I wonder how that's going. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/28/assa-j28.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/28/assa-j28.html >Key witness against Assange admits to lying in exchange for US immunity Oh yeah. But hey, we might have destroyed one of the crown jewels of free software because the CIA played SJWs like a fiddle but at least we're good people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4hh1YhDfbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4hh1YhDfbA
  - zensavona 4y ago
  - corncobb 4y ago
    Maybe if those two guys had kept their dicks in their pants and not gone around molesting and raping as if they were somehow immune to any consequences, they'd not have got in any trouble for it. Not everything is a shadowy government conspiracy. Most often, people behave despicably just by themselves. Particularly the arrogant, domineering egotists - such as the two you mentioned.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      >Not everything is a shadowy government conspiracy. Most often, people behave despicably just by themselves. Particularly the arrogant, domineering egotists - such as the two you mentioned. >>Sigurdur “Siggi” Thordarson, a convicted criminal from Iceland, has admitted that the main allegations he made against Julian Assange, which form a central component of the US indictment against the WikiLeaks founder, were lies proffered in exchange for immunity from American prosecution. I guess clicking was too hard. It literally was a government conspiracy. If that hadn't worked they would have planted some child porn on both of them. And if that didn't they'd have done an Epstein. It is always hilarious seeing people with a Che shirt defending the CIA.
ipaddr 4y ago
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3p...
- jacooper 4y ago
  Direct link: https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-ma... Didn't google deprecate/stop prioritizing AMP? so why are they still using it? Is it because Its an opportunity to track users so use it as longer as possible?
ravenstine 4y ago
If you are using Tor, seriously ask yourself if it's a good idea to install software that was developed by DARPA and has never solved the exit node problem.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  This is such an odd comment. ARPANET and by extension DARPA are embedded in the origin story of the Internet and I'm sure DARPA will continue to fund fringe technologies that emerge to change the way we communicate into the future. It isn't, in and of itself a reason for suspicion on the level implied, nor would I argue above and beyond baseline healthy suspicion in anything.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    > ARPANET and by extension DARPA are embedded in the origin story of the Internet and I'm sure DARPA will continue to fund fringe technologies that emerge to change the way we communicate into the future. That doesn't matter at all. Tor is not proposing to accomplish the same thing the internet does. If we are to take Tor at its word, it is proposing the exact opposite of what is in the interest of government and law enforcement.
- wolfendin 4y ago
  These two things are also properties of the Internet itself are they not?
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Do you really expect anonymity out of the internet or trust that your IP traffic isn't being analyzed and logged? It certainly is, and it being a government project isn't an argument in its favor. The internet isn't selling itself as a tool of anonymity, never has, and isn't software you're installing on your hardware.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 4y ago
csande17 4y ago
Team Cymru (the company the article is about) has a response to the coverage: https://www.team-cymru.com/post/team-cymru-myth-vs-fact https://www.team-cymru.com/post/team-cymru-myth-vs-fact In short, they claim that: - The "PCAP" data, email addresses, etc that they sell comes from them running malware samples on their own infrastructure. It's not based on captured Internet data. - The web page addresses etc that they sell are the results of automated vulnerability scans and honeypots, not captured Internet data. - The netflow data they sell is captured from real ISP traffic, but it is a small sample (only 1 in 10,000 netflows is captured), and it can't identify individual websites if they use a CDN or shared hosting infrastructure (which most websites do). I have no clue how true these claims are, but those are the claims.
- cma 4y ago
  Wouldn't captured netflow data show which tor nodes users were connected to?
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Only entry guards which isn't secret info. You will need to get very lucky to correlate that with relay traffic with the guard. Even with decent 1:10 sampling I would say it us only a little better than a random guess at best.
jacooper 4y ago
> But of course, not actively endangering our users is a low bar. It is reasonable to raise questions about the inherent disconnection between the business model of Team Cymru and the mission of Tor which consists of private and anonymous internet access for all. Rob Thomas's reasons for choosing to resign from the board are his own, but it has become more clear over the months since our initial conversation how Team Cymru's work is at odds with the Tor Project's mission Looks like he was going to get fired anyway.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
crtasm 4y ago
Actual title is "The Role of the Tor Project Board and Conflicts of Interest" The Motherboard piece mentioned is: https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-ma...

While I can appreciate the measured tone in TFA, at some point you've got to take a step back and ask what the hell is going on. This instance reeks of an egregious conflict of interest and this response is negligent on behalf of the board. The current TOR Board scenario is akin to having a known child-abusing relative babysit your own kid, catching them inexplicably sitting with the kid alone in a darkened room in a state of undress, then saying: "Well, this is strange.. but we can't prove you were planning anything malicious this time around. As you were, mate!" Sometimes a harsh response is warranted to preserve integrity of that which is important. This is one of those times. My confidence in TOR was already kind of low, now how can I trust and be assured the lack of firm response isn't due to integrity already being compromised and no longer the main priority? The public trust in TOR is EVERYTHING the project has*. * had

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
Hard disagree. The measured tone in TFA is how adults debate issues. Invoking phrases like "child-abusing relative" and "kid alone in a darkened room in a state of undress" is the kind of hyperbole that sites like Twitter and HN love to employ that reduce the quality of conversations and how threads turn into shouting matches. Ask yourself how the hyperbole you engage in leads to "curious conversation", how you're "assuming good faith", and how you're "eschewing flamebait". Because TFA seems to invoke curious conversation and good faith and your hyperbolic analogies just seem like ideological-battle oriented flamebait. > Sometimes a harsh response is warranted to preserve integrity of that which is important. This is one of those times. I'm pretty sure this is explicitly against "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." P.S. As a long time HN reader/user, these hyperbolic flamebait comments in the service of political ends are exactly the kinds of comments that I find degrade this site the most. When people complain about this site turning into Reddit, it's these kinds of comments I think about.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  OPs comment wasn’t just off the cuff emotionally charged rhetoric though. They acknowledged that there are times for a measured response, and there are times that a measured response is inappropriate. That outrage and pitchfork wielding are appropriate responses. They made the case that this was one of those times. I agree.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
    The comment would have been better without the strained analogy. One counter argument to the gp might be something like: this is exactly the kind of expertise The Tor Project should want to consult.
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      Ooh, I like that. That’s why I come to HN, it’s the angles I would have never considered.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        Thanks! Made my day :)
  - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    Bring enough people together with varied enough opinions and each of them will feel their own personal deep concerns are worth wielding pitchforks for. Eventually every conflict will involve pitchforks and the temperature of any discussion will be high enough that all you have are flames whereupon conflicts will just be hidden from public view and taken care of under the table so as not to risk the public flames of wrath.
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      Welcome to the internet. It’s pitchforks all the way down, baby
thrown_22 4y ago
Tor was taken over by the CIA a while ago when they purged the old hacker board for "inappropriate behavior towards women": https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/jacob-appelbaum-tor-project-sexual-assault-allegations https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/jacob-app... You know, the same thing they did to Assange. I wonder how that's going. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/28/assa-j28.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/28/assa-j28.html >Key witness against Assange admits to lying in exchange for US immunity Oh yeah. But hey, we might have destroyed one of the crown jewels of free software because the CIA played SJWs like a fiddle but at least we're good people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4hh1YhDfbA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4hh1YhDfbA
- zensavona 4y ago
- corncobb 4y ago
  Maybe if those two guys had kept their dicks in their pants and not gone around molesting and raping as if they were somehow immune to any consequences, they'd not have got in any trouble for it. Not everything is a shadowy government conspiracy. Most often, people behave despicably just by themselves. Particularly the arrogant, domineering egotists - such as the two you mentioned.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    >Not everything is a shadowy government conspiracy. Most often, people behave despicably just by themselves. Particularly the arrogant, domineering egotists - such as the two you mentioned. >>Sigurdur “Siggi” Thordarson, a convicted criminal from Iceland, has admitted that the main allegations he made against Julian Assange, which form a central component of the US indictment against the WikiLeaks founder, were lies proffered in exchange for immunity from American prosecution. I guess clicking was too hard. It literally was a government conspiracy. If that hadn't worked they would have planted some child porn on both of them. And if that didn't they'd have done an Epstein. It is always hilarious seeing people with a Che shirt defending the CIA.

ipaddr 4y ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3p...

jacooper 4y ago
Direct link: https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-ma... Didn't google deprecate/stop prioritizing AMP? so why are they still using it? Is it because Its an opportunity to track users so use it as longer as possible?

ravenstine 4y ago

If you are using Tor, seriously ask yourself if it's a good idea to install software that was developed by DARPA and has never solved the exit node problem.

sirsinsalot 4y ago
This is such an odd comment. ARPANET and by extension DARPA are embedded in the origin story of the Internet and I'm sure DARPA will continue to fund fringe technologies that emerge to change the way we communicate into the future. It isn't, in and of itself a reason for suspicion on the level implied, nor would I argue above and beyond baseline healthy suspicion in anything.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  > ARPANET and by extension DARPA are embedded in the origin story of the Internet and I'm sure DARPA will continue to fund fringe technologies that emerge to change the way we communicate into the future. That doesn't matter at all. Tor is not proposing to accomplish the same thing the internet does. If we are to take Tor at its word, it is proposing the exact opposite of what is in the interest of government and law enforcement.
wolfendin 4y ago
These two things are also properties of the Internet itself are they not?
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Do you really expect anonymity out of the internet or trust that your IP traffic isn't being analyzed and logged? It certainly is, and it being a government project isn't an argument in its favor. The internet isn't selling itself as a tool of anonymity, never has, and isn't software you're installing on your hardware.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
4y ago

csande17 4y ago

Team Cymru (the company the article is about) has a response to the coverage: https://www.team-cymru.com/post/team-cymru-myth-vs-fact https://www.team-cymru.com/post/team-cymru-myth-vs-fact In short, they claim that: - The "PCAP" data, email addresses, etc that they sell comes from them running malware samples on their own infrastructure. It's not based on captured Internet data. - The web page addresses etc that they sell are the results of automated vulnerability scans and honeypots, not captured Internet data. - The netflow data they sell is captured from real ISP traffic, but it is a small sample (only 1 in 10,000 netflows is captured), and it can't identify individual websites if they use a CDN or shared hosting infrastructure (which most websites do). I have no clue how true these claims are, but those are the claims.

cma 4y ago
Wouldn't captured netflow data show which tor nodes users were connected to?
- _8j50 4y ago
  Only entry guards which isn't secret info. You will need to get very lucky to correlate that with relay traffic with the guard. Even with decent 1:10 sampling I would say it us only a little better than a random guess at best.

jacooper 4y ago

> But of course, not actively endangering our users is a low bar. It is reasonable to raise questions about the inherent disconnection between the business model of Team Cymru and the mission of Tor which consists of private and anonymous internet access for all. Rob Thomas's reasons for choosing to resign from the board are his own, but it has become more clear over the months since our initial conversation how Team Cymru's work is at odds with the Tor Project's mission Looks like he was going to get fired anyway.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

crtasm 4y ago

Actual title is "The Role of the Tor Project Board and Conflicts of Interest" The Motherboard piece mentioned is: https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-mass-monitoring-augury-team-cymru-browsing-email-data https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pnkw/us-military-bought-ma...