6 ms·

Caffeine and Exercise Performance

114 points by tb8424 4y ago

zs234465234165 4y ago
My life improved when I greatly reduced my caff intake(160->35) and started limiting it to 3 days a week
glogla 4y ago
Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage? I remember this being a thing going around - the proposed mechanism was that while caffeine helps in general, it constricts brain blood vessels making blows to head more dangerous, since blow to head "spills" stuff from neurons and due to the constriction they take longer to be resupplied. I remember some scientific articles on this but I don't recall if this was conclusive. It might not be much of a concern for BJJ, where blows to head are relatively rare, but it for sure would be a concern for boxing or MT.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  > Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage? Contact sports and oats will be linked to some brain damage. Contact sports and listening to seagulls in the evening too will lead to brain damage.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    I mean that’s true, but it’s still entirely possible that something like caffeine could make it worse.
    - paulcole 4y ago
      It’s still entirely possible the seagull thing could make it worse.
mckirk 4y ago
For people interested in using caffeine for tasks that don't provide an outlet for the jitteriness in the form of physical exercise: Check out L-Theanine[1], it works wonders for keeping caffeine's focus, but dampening the anxiousness. [1]: https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/ https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/
- pgt 4y ago
  L-theanine is the active non-sedative anxiolytic in green tea that gives it such a "smooth high" when combined with its methylxanthine stimulants, theobromine and caffeine - which are natural pesticides, by the way. Anecdote of one: I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later.
  - n4r9 4y ago
    I believe it's present in all teas: black, oolong, white etc... as well as green.
    - bbarn 4y ago
      That would make sense as all of those are the same plant, just harvested at different times and treated differently.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    > I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later. This was also my experience, but not two days later - the same day. I'd take L-Theanine, feel okay for a few hours, then feel extremely irritable and anxious for the rest of the day. More L-Theanine didn't help.
    - ubercore 4y ago
      Exactly this happens to me as well.
    - fegu 4y ago
AtillaBosma 4y ago
A bit unrelated, but I always get sleepy from coffee for some reason. Even yesterday I was just yawning and almost falling asleep between sets at the gym, even though I drank an espresso right before the workout. I had a normal 8 hours of sleep that night too, so don't think it has to do with sleep deprivation. Is this something anyone else has issues with?
- barrenko 4y ago
  I'd say it's a pretty standard caffeine effect.
- aszantu 4y ago
  I get that from decaf with milk. Also when u re already tired caffeine doesn't work and might make you more tired
- busymom0 4y ago
  I mentioned in this other comment that taking a good meal with fats before caffeine prevents me from feeling sleepy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018360
- omgmajk 4y ago
  Coffee makes me alert when I need to sleep and sleepy when I need to stay alert.
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  Do you have ADHD? I don't know if there's actual evidence whether it's related, but I often hear this from people with ADHD
fredgrott 4y ago
Note, From my ADHD way of controlling my ADHD the ideal way to stack caffeine with other stimulants is to take 70mg or less daily with the ECGC component of green tea in the form of Cacao to get both Caffeine and Theobromine !. Theobromine is a weaker stimulant that has a lot longer half life than caffeine. 2. ECGC from green tea changes the conformation of the adenosine receptor, i.e. blocks it thus raising dopamine levels. It's the way I get away with a lower L-DOPA dosage and that higher concentration lasts all day just by taking a tablespoon of cacao and my green tea extract in the morning.
- pgt 4y ago
  Hmm, did not know that EGCG affects conformation of the adenosine receptor [^1]. To clarify, are you saying you're taking only cacao + EGCG to manage your ADHD? How about 90% Lindt dark chocolate as cacao source? Do you then stack L-DOPA on top of that. Aside: EGCG counteracts the release of vasopressin (which causes your body to retain liquids), which is used post-MDMA roll to aid urination. [^1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16733047/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16733047/
- pgt 4y ago
  Dude, thanks for this! Been taking 3 blocks of 90% Lindt chocolate with EGCG the past two mornings and totally stopped espresso intake. Thoughts are less erratic, more stable with improved planning capabilities and lots of energy. Current hypothesis: something in coffee causes or worsens ADHD. Please share any other nootropic nooledge.
jtwaleson 4y ago
I've recently started taking 200mg caffeine pills in the morning instead of coffee. A very cheap and easy way to boost energy in the morning, within about 15 minutes you really want to get out of bed, and no need to walk to the coffee machine. 200 pills are about $5, which is a lot cheaper than coffee. I'll probably tone down the dose, because it's the equivalent of 3 espressos, which is a bit much. I would normally do a double espresso.
- busymom0 4y ago
  When I take it, I break a 200mg caffeine pill in 1/2 or 1/3 and take it couple hours apart. Seems to work better that way for me. I try to operate on only 100mg and occasionally take the second 100mg (remaining of the halved pill). Also I find that eating a good meal with fats before taking caffeine works better for me. Otherwise I feel sleepy after caffeine. Also, for faster absorption, I put it under my tongue and let it dissolve. That’s the fastest way to see the effects.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  I've used 200mg caffeine pills back in college, exactly for the purpose of waking up in the morning. For me, the tolerance made the effect go away after a month or two. I could take a caffeine pill, and go back to sleep. I had to start taking two, then three, until one morning I took so many I was basically shaking from caffeine, yet I was still sleepy. Maybe it was just me, though. Everyone's metabolism is different.
  - jtwaleson 4y ago
    That sounds very unhealthy :) I try to remind myself that these are slightly dangerous things and I should stick to one per day.
  - markmark 4y ago
    As I understand it the body pretty quickly gets used to caffeine use, then taking your typical amount just gets you to the same level you'd always be if you never had caffeine. I still drink coffee though.
marban 4y ago
I work out 2h/d/365d and used to take 450mg boosters, incl. the usual suspects like Citrullin, β-A, etc. every morning. Went cold turkey and I'm now at a single shot of Espresso pre-workout — and the best shape of my life (mid-40). Sleep and nutrition are key; don't get dependent on whatever supplement you think is necessary.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  What do you mean you work out for 2h literally every day?
  - 6stringmerc 4y ago
    It might sound wild but here in Texas getting ready for high school football often includes “two a days” to get in shape at the start of the season. That means a morning and afternoon workout. In total it can be 2 hours or more spent doing the routine (not solid 2 hours lifting or running, but within that time). I’m revisiting training and going light for now but if I go the PED route again I will definitely go harder and longer because of the recovery advantages from steroids and protein.
    - sure_about_that 4y ago
  - marban 4y ago
    Yes
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nonameiguess 4y ago
    Common response to a midlife crisis, honestly. I was hit hard by spine injuries in my mid-30s and, frankly, almost ready to end shit if not for my wife and the hope of treatment. Years after recovering from all the surgeries, now in my 40s, I've bounced back hard in the other direction. I take Sundays off, so not literally every day, but I lift 6 days a week for 60-90 minutes, walk for 30-60 minutes every morning and 60-90 minutes every evening, row reasonably hard 3-4 days a week for 20-30 minutes. As far as I understand, the average American spends 3 hours a day watching television, so it's not like we don't have the time. I just don't do that. Plus, I work from home, so I'm not blowing an extra 3 hours a day on commuting and taking a lunch break. It's now or never. It's not like it'll get easier in my 50s or I'll get another chance in the next life. We've only got this one.
tomalaci 4y ago
Caffeine combined with L-Theanine does seem provide slight boost for focus to me. That said, I think biggest mood/focus/energy difference (besides a nice workout which is also important) for me was getting vitamins and other micronutrients in order. I highly suggest you to do a blood test or two per year for all the common vitamins/micronutrients to see which you need to fix. For men, I think it is especially important to get magnesium, vitamin D and zinc in order; lack of any will likely affect your testosterone levels negatively which will then screw you up in many more ways. For example, way back I had critically low vitamin D resulting me in frequently getting sick and having periods of complete lack of energy; fixed that and I did not even get common cold for a long time, also no longer random days with no energy. You shouldn't overly rely on nootropics, caffeine+l-theanine or other supplements to cover up base deficiencies with your micros.
- idontwantthis 4y ago
  Was your diet deficient in those vitamins for some reason?
  - Xamayon 4y ago
    I know mine was chronically low in Magnesium. The first indicator which got my attention and pointed to a potential problem was that taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day.
    - 300bps 4y ago
      taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day My first comment is that I think this is why we have placebo-controlled double-blind studies. My second is that I took a multi-vitamin for many years and I recommend caution in their use. For much of that time, when I went to the doctor for my yearly physical I would have elevated AST and ALT liver enzymes which is a marker of liver damage. All tests for typical causes of this (hepatitis, others) came up negative. Finally my doctor asked if I took a multivitamin. I said yes and she told me to stop taking it. That was about 15 years ago and I have never had elevated liver enzymes since then.
pmontra 4y ago
One data point: I can drink 3 espressos at midnight, go to bed and fall asleep. Apparently I'm immune to caffeine which is both good (I can have a coffee at any time of the day) and bad (if I'm sleepy and I have to drive a coffee won't wake me up.) Maybe I also won't get any of those exercise performance effects.
- jack_pp 4y ago
  have you tried modafinil? might not be the best solution for long drives except if you plan well ahead, like say if you have a late 4h drive after which you will sleep maybe take modafinil 6-7h before the drive so you can actually sleep when it's over
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Modafinil might make you smarter too. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140369/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140369/
    - jack_pp 4y ago
      personally I've tried to use it for work and it's hit or miss, if I have some frustrating bugs I'll be more irritable on modafinil or caffeine because while on them I want to achieve things fast and I'll be more easily irritated if I'm blocked by long running tests or other long periods where it's not clear how to proceed.
- papito 4y ago
  There is such a thing as a "coffee power nap". I won't go into the science of it, but it basically makes sense to fall asleep after having a cup of coffee (but not at night). That said, you may fall asleep, but you don't know how the quality and depth of your sleep is affected. You can be sleeping for 10 hours and still wake up wrecked.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Yeah, it’s crazy how different peoples responses to caffeine are. One cup of tea at 9am will affect my sleep!
pelasaco 4y ago
being an old bjj black belt (4th degree), I loved to see it here. I'm training bjj/grappling for more than 30 years right now. I'm 40, and started it when I was 10. I did the math and I drink around 6mg-8mg/kg/day. My question is regarding the caffeine tolerance. Should I reset it from time to time? Never did it, but I'm curious if it exists and its necessary or if that's just a myth. OSS
- patpatpat 4y ago
  You can definitely cycle caffeine. If you want to experience that amazing caffeine high. There is also some guidance that you should give it 3-4 hours after waking to have your first coffee, as it gives your natural cortisol a chance to do it's thing (caffeine supposedly uses similar mechanisms and blocks your cortisol).
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    doing wrong probably my whole life.. the first coffee, comes always literally 5 minutes after waking up. Wake up, walk to the kitchen, drink water while brewing coffee, start the day, repeat.
SpaceInvader 4y ago
I'm an avid runner (50-70km/week) and I've been running for 5 years. I run long distances on trail. Seems that although it increases performance and stamina for me it also brings my heart rate up, which is not desirable in most cases since I'm training ~80% of the time in zone 2 (aerobic). At given pace I can have few bits higher HR when caffeinated (between 5 and 10 bpm) which means that I need go go slower in order to stay in zone 2. For me it's a tool that I'm using during races. Also worth noting is that caffeine works on me really well.
- intense122 4y ago
  Agree. If I want some energy boost I drink matcha, sencha.. green teas. Looks like it kicks off faster than coffee for me, but depends, for example matcha seems a bit harder for gut when drinking before workout. Some of them could be helpful for fat burning also combined with zone 2 but I am not sure, wasn't reading about this.
- nmdeadhead 4y ago
  I too am a runner (~100 mi/week when not tapering or recovering) and "normally" I limit my caffeine to a double espresso at 5:15am. I take that one to synchronize my sleeping and bowels. However, it's a little more complicated than that because I divide the year into three different major training blocks and what I do varies both by which major block I'm in as well as what I'm doing within that block. As such, there are trainings where I use extra caffeine for a variety of different purposes, e.g. to get maximum speed to train my body to go faster, or for the mild analgesic effect to counter some discomfort from long distances. Depending on how much extra I take and when, I may have to take the attendant tiredness into account when planning the following day's activities, both physical (more training) and mental (programming). I believe I benefit from my use of caffeine, but it's tricky. I log all the caffeine I take as well as all the calories, analgesics and alcohol in a text file (which I keep in a public repository in GitHub). I can then look back and try to figure out what's worked well in the past so I can do more of it as well as what has held me back.
- sonthonax 4y ago
  Heart rate isn’t a good metric to be iron clad to. It’s far to variable as your stroke volume changes in response to: stimulants, sleep, stress, external heat, blood pressure, body temperature, and time spent running. For all of the fitness tracking that exists, perceived exertion and relative pace to your max is better.
throwaway787544 4y ago
kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
I'm currently experimenting with a low caffeine (no coffee, mostly green/herbal tea) lifestyle after having the stomach flu (no coffee for a week) and thinking it was the perfect time to give it a shot. My god, I've never been more clear-headed in my life. My working memory seems greatly improved. I'm able to work out complex problems in my head that previously I would struggle to keep my "mental eye" on. Moreover, I'm much less anxious in general and generally much happier. I think I'm ADHD/anxiety-prone and I think that, while coffee for some with ADHD really helps, the increased anxiety made it difficult for "long, slow" mental processing to occur in my head. A confounding factor is that I've also recently introduced a green powder in my diet, but the effect of no-coffee has been much more immediate. I love coffee and never thought I'd be able give it up, but I don't even miss it now...
- brightball 4y ago
  I switched to half-caff coffee and don't personally experience caffeine withdrawal anymore when I go without. I think it weened me off the need. I still drink it in the morning just because I enjoy it.
  - kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
    Nice, i should try that out. Is half-caff decaf, or is it a third class?
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      I have no idea, but you can buy coffees that are lower caffeine varieties. Robusta isn’t generally great tasting but generally has a lot of caffeine and is added to blends for this reason (and because it’s cheap). Trying full strength but low caffeine varieties might be a nice option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_caffeine_coffee https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_caffeine_coffee
      - kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
        Thanks!
boveus 4y ago
It is difficult to determine if researchers are measuring the effect of caffeine itself or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal. This is a common weakness in studies that show purported benefits to caffeine consumption[1,2,3]. Anecdotally as someone who quit caffeine entirely about a year ago, the effects of caffeine withdrawal seemed to last much longer than the 24 hour period that many studies ask participants to abstain for. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213082/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213082/ 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209127/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209127/ 3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27649778/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27649778/
- 300bps 4y ago
  or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal After decades of personal experimentation with caffeine, this is my conclusion personally. I get about two weeks of a boost if I go from 0 caffeine consumption to moderate caffeine consumption. After that two week period, I am simply consuming caffeine to feel normal.
- mindslight 4y ago
  24 hours, seriously? In my experience from quitting caffeine cold turkey many times, caffeine detox takes 2-3 weeks. The first 24 hours is relatively easy, on days 2-3 the headache and extreme lethargy really sets in. The worst clears up in 7-10 days. I think the only meaningful way to run the study is to compare people who are completely free of caffeine, versus people who are steady state a certain level of caffeine per day. Either two different groups, or the same group separated by a month. This research assumption is right in line with how society ignores caffeine as a non-drug. When asked what drugs I'm taking, I've told doctors things like "500mg caffeine" and they looked at me like I had two heads. Or my aunt who has trouble sleeping to the point of being prescribed benzos, but still has coffee at 5PM. Apparently it's all just "drinking coffee" and not doing a psychoactive drug, because "drugs" are "bad".
gumby 4y ago
I have long been fascinated by the degree to which WWII was fought on caffeine and nicotine (on all sides and all theatres). Other drugs (e.g. amphetamine and Benzedrine) get some press but we’re minor factors. I did a few experiments decades ago with nicotine, enough to notice its nice resonant behavior with coffee, but not enough I guess to notice any real benefit myself. I did relish the social habits associated with cigarette usage (the excuse for a brief pause in conversation to collect your thoughts, the social aspect of one person lighting up and others unthinkingly joining in, offering/receiving a light, cadging or offering a cigarette, sharing a single one, etc) Tea and coffee have long been my companions. During Covid I cut down from two pots of brewed coffee a day to one. In June of this year I unexpectedly had to stop drinking coffee for almost a week and since then have had only one cup, which I accidentally drank out of habit (someone put a fresh one next to me while I was sitting and reading). After 46 years of daily high consumption I just…stopped. And I don’t miss it. I walk past the pot full of coffee in the kitchen and don’t notice it. It makes me wonder how much is simply habit.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Regarding your WW2 comment a Reading Spike Milligan and his descriptions of making tea under fire is excellent. But as for coffee just being a habit, no way. I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly, but the headaches on stopping can be terrible.
  - boringg 4y ago
    Agreed caffeine withdrawal is real you don't switch off that habit with meaningful consequences on your body. However maybe tea has been covering the caffeine component and they slowly tapered off. Additionally apparently having coffee first thing in the morning, your body gets adjusted to that and your brain gets dependent on coffee to get a quick start.
  - gumby 4y ago
    > I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly I was hospitalized, pumped full of drugs and didn't eat anything (except via IV) for a week -- the absence of caffeine thing was kind of a random side effect. Not an approach I would recommend! I was pumped full of antibiotics and took more after being discharged so pretty well wiped out all the bacteria in my gut, which I replaced by eating yoghurt. My diet has changed fairly radically since then (zero interest in sweets, for example) so I wonder how much of my coffee and other food desires were actually my gut symbionts' desires.
talove 4y ago
I drink one cup of pour-over coffee that I make every morning. I like it medium to medium strong. I perceive many physical effects from it. At this point it's my morning ritual. 20 minutes in bed or on the sofa reading or doing a crossword while drinking a coffee. I am also an hobbyist endurance cyclist. I do cycling 'events' that last as long as 12+ hours. And average somewhere between 6-8. While I've tried for years to add caffeine into my nutrition plan for these events. I have only ever had adverse effects. I seem to manage 6-8 ounces of coke. But in spite of my morning ritual, if I consume any coffee or caffeine infused energy bars or gels I will be miserable. Every time I get weak, shaky, feel like I am going to pass out, and feel absolutely miserable. After about 30-60 minutes, I'll have to suddenly pee. Once I pee I slowly feel better and in another 30 minutes back to normal. I've talked to a hundred people about this, nobody seems to have the same effect. But it seems as if my body just rejects the caffeine, pees it out, and carries on.
- hammock 4y ago
  Coke*, one hopes
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
As a former Ironman distance triathlete anywhere from 11 to 16 hours of completion time, caffiene on race day is a pillar of maintaining both mental and physical sustained exertion. In Ironman France, which effectively has a Tour De France category 1 climb of 12 miles up a mountain, I got sleepy at the top of the climb, to the point I wanted to take a nap. Yes, you can get sleepy during an ironman. I has heard 1-2%, 2-4% was greater than I thought. If that is true, no endurance athlete is competitive at the top levels without doing caffeine, so it's almost guaranteed every olympic athlete does caffeine.
Ancalagon 4y ago
Another anecdote: I do a lot of powerlifting with heavy weight for a natural lifter (600+ lb deadlifts). I've noticed caffeine really helps me get through the days of extreme soreness, especially when I've had to wake up early or just generally had a poor night's sleep so my recovery is sub-optimal. I found this out around age 23 and have been pretty much drinking coffee most for the last 7 years. Granted its only 1 or two cups but it works for me.

114 points by tb8424 4y ago

My life improved when I greatly reduced my caff intake(160->35) and started limiting it to 3 days a week

Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage? I remember this being a thing going around - the proposed mechanism was that while caffeine helps in general, it constricts brain blood vessels making blows to head more dangerous, since blow to head "spills" stuff from neurons and due to the constriction they take longer to be resupplied. I remember some scientific articles on this but I don't recall if this was conclusive. It might not be much of a concern for BJJ, where blows to head are relatively rare, but it for sure would be a concern for boxing or MT.

eptcyka 4y ago
> Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage? Contact sports and oats will be linked to some brain damage. Contact sports and listening to seagulls in the evening too will lead to brain damage.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I mean that’s true, but it’s still entirely possible that something like caffeine could make it worse.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    It’s still entirely possible the seagull thing could make it worse.

mckirk 4y ago

For people interested in using caffeine for tasks that don't provide an outlet for the jitteriness in the form of physical exercise: Check out L-Theanine[1], it works wonders for keeping caffeine's focus, but dampening the anxiousness. [1]: https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/ https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/

pgt 4y ago
L-theanine is the active non-sedative anxiolytic in green tea that gives it such a "smooth high" when combined with its methylxanthine stimulants, theobromine and caffeine - which are natural pesticides, by the way. Anecdote of one: I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later.
- n4r9 4y ago
  I believe it's present in all teas: black, oolong, white etc... as well as green.
  - bbarn 4y ago
    That would make sense as all of those are the same plant, just harvested at different times and treated differently.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  > I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later. This was also my experience, but not two days later - the same day. I'd take L-Theanine, feel okay for a few hours, then feel extremely irritable and anxious for the rest of the day. More L-Theanine didn't help.
  - ubercore 4y ago
    Exactly this happens to me as well.
  - fegu 4y ago

AtillaBosma 4y ago

A bit unrelated, but I always get sleepy from coffee for some reason. Even yesterday I was just yawning and almost falling asleep between sets at the gym, even though I drank an espresso right before the workout. I had a normal 8 hours of sleep that night too, so don't think it has to do with sleep deprivation. Is this something anyone else has issues with?

barrenko 4y ago
I'd say it's a pretty standard caffeine effect.
aszantu 4y ago
I get that from decaf with milk. Also when u re already tired caffeine doesn't work and might make you more tired
busymom0 4y ago
I mentioned in this other comment that taking a good meal with fats before caffeine prevents me from feeling sleepy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018360
omgmajk 4y ago
Coffee makes me alert when I need to sleep and sleepy when I need to stay alert.
EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
Do you have ADHD? I don't know if there's actual evidence whether it's related, but I often hear this from people with ADHD

fredgrott 4y ago

Note, From my ADHD way of controlling my ADHD the ideal way to stack caffeine with other stimulants is to take 70mg or less daily with the ECGC component of green tea in the form of Cacao to get both Caffeine and Theobromine !. Theobromine is a weaker stimulant that has a lot longer half life than caffeine. 2. ECGC from green tea changes the conformation of the adenosine receptor, i.e. blocks it thus raising dopamine levels. It's the way I get away with a lower L-DOPA dosage and that higher concentration lasts all day just by taking a tablespoon of cacao and my green tea extract in the morning.

pgt 4y ago
Hmm, did not know that EGCG affects conformation of the adenosine receptor [^1]. To clarify, are you saying you're taking only cacao + EGCG to manage your ADHD? How about 90% Lindt dark chocolate as cacao source? Do you then stack L-DOPA on top of that. Aside: EGCG counteracts the release of vasopressin (which causes your body to retain liquids), which is used post-MDMA roll to aid urination. [^1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16733047/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16733047/
pgt 4y ago
Dude, thanks for this! Been taking 3 blocks of 90% Lindt chocolate with EGCG the past two mornings and totally stopped espresso intake. Thoughts are less erratic, more stable with improved planning capabilities and lots of energy. Current hypothesis: something in coffee causes or worsens ADHD. Please share any other nootropic nooledge.

jtwaleson 4y ago

I've recently started taking 200mg caffeine pills in the morning instead of coffee. A very cheap and easy way to boost energy in the morning, within about 15 minutes you really want to get out of bed, and no need to walk to the coffee machine. 200 pills are about $5, which is a lot cheaper than coffee. I'll probably tone down the dose, because it's the equivalent of 3 espressos, which is a bit much. I would normally do a double espresso.

busymom0 4y ago
When I take it, I break a 200mg caffeine pill in 1/2 or 1/3 and take it couple hours apart. Seems to work better that way for me. I try to operate on only 100mg and occasionally take the second 100mg (remaining of the halved pill). Also I find that eating a good meal with fats before taking caffeine works better for me. Otherwise I feel sleepy after caffeine. Also, for faster absorption, I put it under my tongue and let it dissolve. That’s the fastest way to see the effects.
bheadmaster 4y ago
I've used 200mg caffeine pills back in college, exactly for the purpose of waking up in the morning. For me, the tolerance made the effect go away after a month or two. I could take a caffeine pill, and go back to sleep. I had to start taking two, then three, until one morning I took so many I was basically shaking from caffeine, yet I was still sleepy. Maybe it was just me, though. Everyone's metabolism is different.
- jtwaleson 4y ago
  That sounds very unhealthy :) I try to remind myself that these are slightly dangerous things and I should stick to one per day.
- markmark 4y ago
  As I understand it the body pretty quickly gets used to caffeine use, then taking your typical amount just gets you to the same level you'd always be if you never had caffeine. I still drink coffee though.

marban 4y ago

I work out 2h/d/365d and used to take 450mg boosters, incl. the usual suspects like Citrullin, β-A, etc. every morning. Went cold turkey and I'm now at a single shot of Espresso pre-workout — and the best shape of my life (mid-40). Sleep and nutrition are key; don't get dependent on whatever supplement you think is necessary.

brailsafe 4y ago
What do you mean you work out for 2h literally every day?
- 6stringmerc 4y ago
  It might sound wild but here in Texas getting ready for high school football often includes “two a days” to get in shape at the start of the season. That means a morning and afternoon workout. In total it can be 2 hours or more spent doing the routine (not solid 2 hours lifting or running, but within that time). I’m revisiting training and going light for now but if I go the PED route again I will definitely go harder and longer because of the recovery advantages from steroids and protein.
  - sure_about_that 4y ago
- marban 4y ago
  Yes
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  Common response to a midlife crisis, honestly. I was hit hard by spine injuries in my mid-30s and, frankly, almost ready to end shit if not for my wife and the hope of treatment. Years after recovering from all the surgeries, now in my 40s, I've bounced back hard in the other direction. I take Sundays off, so not literally every day, but I lift 6 days a week for 60-90 minutes, walk for 30-60 minutes every morning and 60-90 minutes every evening, row reasonably hard 3-4 days a week for 20-30 minutes. As far as I understand, the average American spends 3 hours a day watching television, so it's not like we don't have the time. I just don't do that. Plus, I work from home, so I'm not blowing an extra 3 hours a day on commuting and taking a lunch break. It's now or never. It's not like it'll get easier in my 50s or I'll get another chance in the next life. We've only got this one.

tomalaci 4y ago

Caffeine combined with L-Theanine does seem provide slight boost for focus to me. That said, I think biggest mood/focus/energy difference (besides a nice workout which is also important) for me was getting vitamins and other micronutrients in order. I highly suggest you to do a blood test or two per year for all the common vitamins/micronutrients to see which you need to fix. For men, I think it is especially important to get magnesium, vitamin D and zinc in order; lack of any will likely affect your testosterone levels negatively which will then screw you up in many more ways. For example, way back I had critically low vitamin D resulting me in frequently getting sick and having periods of complete lack of energy; fixed that and I did not even get common cold for a long time, also no longer random days with no energy. You shouldn't overly rely on nootropics, caffeine+l-theanine or other supplements to cover up base deficiencies with your micros.

idontwantthis 4y ago
Was your diet deficient in those vitamins for some reason?
- Xamayon 4y ago
  I know mine was chronically low in Magnesium. The first indicator which got my attention and pointed to a potential problem was that taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day.
  - 300bps 4y ago
    taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day My first comment is that I think this is why we have placebo-controlled double-blind studies. My second is that I took a multi-vitamin for many years and I recommend caution in their use. For much of that time, when I went to the doctor for my yearly physical I would have elevated AST and ALT liver enzymes which is a marker of liver damage. All tests for typical causes of this (hepatitis, others) came up negative. Finally my doctor asked if I took a multivitamin. I said yes and she told me to stop taking it. That was about 15 years ago and I have never had elevated liver enzymes since then.

pmontra 4y ago

One data point: I can drink 3 espressos at midnight, go to bed and fall asleep. Apparently I'm immune to caffeine which is both good (I can have a coffee at any time of the day) and bad (if I'm sleepy and I have to drive a coffee won't wake me up.) Maybe I also won't get any of those exercise performance effects.

jack_pp 4y ago
have you tried modafinil? might not be the best solution for long drives except if you plan well ahead, like say if you have a late 4h drive after which you will sleep maybe take modafinil 6-7h before the drive so you can actually sleep when it's over
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Modafinil might make you smarter too. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140369/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140369/
  - jack_pp 4y ago
    personally I've tried to use it for work and it's hit or miss, if I have some frustrating bugs I'll be more irritable on modafinil or caffeine because while on them I want to achieve things fast and I'll be more easily irritated if I'm blocked by long running tests or other long periods where it's not clear how to proceed.
papito 4y ago
There is such a thing as a "coffee power nap". I won't go into the science of it, but it basically makes sense to fall asleep after having a cup of coffee (but not at night). That said, you may fall asleep, but you don't know how the quality and depth of your sleep is affected. You can be sleeping for 10 hours and still wake up wrecked.
nicoburns 4y ago
Yeah, it’s crazy how different peoples responses to caffeine are. One cup of tea at 9am will affect my sleep!

pelasaco 4y ago

being an old bjj black belt (4th degree), I loved to see it here. I'm training bjj/grappling for more than 30 years right now. I'm 40, and started it when I was 10. I did the math and I drink around 6mg-8mg/kg/day. My question is regarding the caffeine tolerance. Should I reset it from time to time? Never did it, but I'm curious if it exists and its necessary or if that's just a myth. OSS

patpatpat 4y ago
You can definitely cycle caffeine. If you want to experience that amazing caffeine high. There is also some guidance that you should give it 3-4 hours after waking to have your first coffee, as it gives your natural cortisol a chance to do it's thing (caffeine supposedly uses similar mechanisms and blocks your cortisol).
- pelasaco 4y ago
  doing wrong probably my whole life.. the first coffee, comes always literally 5 minutes after waking up. Wake up, walk to the kitchen, drink water while brewing coffee, start the day, repeat.

SpaceInvader 4y ago

I'm an avid runner (50-70km/week) and I've been running for 5 years. I run long distances on trail. Seems that although it increases performance and stamina for me it also brings my heart rate up, which is not desirable in most cases since I'm training ~80% of the time in zone 2 (aerobic). At given pace I can have few bits higher HR when caffeinated (between 5 and 10 bpm) which means that I need go go slower in order to stay in zone 2. For me it's a tool that I'm using during races. Also worth noting is that caffeine works on me really well.

intense122 4y ago
Agree. If I want some energy boost I drink matcha, sencha.. green teas. Looks like it kicks off faster than coffee for me, but depends, for example matcha seems a bit harder for gut when drinking before workout. Some of them could be helpful for fat burning also combined with zone 2 but I am not sure, wasn't reading about this.
nmdeadhead 4y ago
I too am a runner (~100 mi/week when not tapering or recovering) and "normally" I limit my caffeine to a double espresso at 5:15am. I take that one to synchronize my sleeping and bowels. However, it's a little more complicated than that because I divide the year into three different major training blocks and what I do varies both by which major block I'm in as well as what I'm doing within that block. As such, there are trainings where I use extra caffeine for a variety of different purposes, e.g. to get maximum speed to train my body to go faster, or for the mild analgesic effect to counter some discomfort from long distances. Depending on how much extra I take and when, I may have to take the attendant tiredness into account when planning the following day's activities, both physical (more training) and mental (programming). I believe I benefit from my use of caffeine, but it's tricky. I log all the caffeine I take as well as all the calories, analgesics and alcohol in a text file (which I keep in a public repository in GitHub). I can then look back and try to figure out what's worked well in the past so I can do more of it as well as what has held me back.
sonthonax 4y ago
Heart rate isn’t a good metric to be iron clad to. It’s far to variable as your stroke volume changes in response to: stimulants, sleep, stress, external heat, blood pressure, body temperature, and time spent running. For all of the fitness tracking that exists, perceived exertion and relative pace to your max is better.

throwaway787544 4y ago

kick_in_the_dor 4y ago

I'm currently experimenting with a low caffeine (no coffee, mostly green/herbal tea) lifestyle after having the stomach flu (no coffee for a week) and thinking it was the perfect time to give it a shot. My god, I've never been more clear-headed in my life. My working memory seems greatly improved. I'm able to work out complex problems in my head that previously I would struggle to keep my "mental eye" on. Moreover, I'm much less anxious in general and generally much happier. I think I'm ADHD/anxiety-prone and I think that, while coffee for some with ADHD really helps, the increased anxiety made it difficult for "long, slow" mental processing to occur in my head. A confounding factor is that I've also recently introduced a green powder in my diet, but the effect of no-coffee has been much more immediate. I love coffee and never thought I'd be able give it up, but I don't even miss it now...

brightball 4y ago
I switched to half-caff coffee and don't personally experience caffeine withdrawal anymore when I go without. I think it weened me off the need. I still drink it in the morning just because I enjoy it.
- kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
  Nice, i should try that out. Is half-caff decaf, or is it a third class?
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    I have no idea, but you can buy coffees that are lower caffeine varieties. Robusta isn’t generally great tasting but generally has a lot of caffeine and is added to blends for this reason (and because it’s cheap). Trying full strength but low caffeine varieties might be a nice option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_caffeine_coffee https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_caffeine_coffee
    - kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
      Thanks!

boveus 4y ago

It is difficult to determine if researchers are measuring the effect of caffeine itself or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal. This is a common weakness in studies that show purported benefits to caffeine consumption[1,2,3]. Anecdotally as someone who quit caffeine entirely about a year ago, the effects of caffeine withdrawal seemed to last much longer than the 24 hour period that many studies ask participants to abstain for. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213082/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213082/ 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209127/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209127/ 3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27649778/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27649778/

300bps 4y ago
or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal After decades of personal experimentation with caffeine, this is my conclusion personally. I get about two weeks of a boost if I go from 0 caffeine consumption to moderate caffeine consumption. After that two week period, I am simply consuming caffeine to feel normal.
mindslight 4y ago
24 hours, seriously? In my experience from quitting caffeine cold turkey many times, caffeine detox takes 2-3 weeks. The first 24 hours is relatively easy, on days 2-3 the headache and extreme lethargy really sets in. The worst clears up in 7-10 days. I think the only meaningful way to run the study is to compare people who are completely free of caffeine, versus people who are steady state a certain level of caffeine per day. Either two different groups, or the same group separated by a month. This research assumption is right in line with how society ignores caffeine as a non-drug. When asked what drugs I'm taking, I've told doctors things like "500mg caffeine" and they looked at me like I had two heads. Or my aunt who has trouble sleeping to the point of being prescribed benzos, but still has coffee at 5PM. Apparently it's all just "drinking coffee" and not doing a psychoactive drug, because "drugs" are "bad".

gumby 4y ago

I have long been fascinated by the degree to which WWII was fought on caffeine and nicotine (on all sides and all theatres). Other drugs (e.g. amphetamine and Benzedrine) get some press but we’re minor factors. I did a few experiments decades ago with nicotine, enough to notice its nice resonant behavior with coffee, but not enough I guess to notice any real benefit myself. I did relish the social habits associated with cigarette usage (the excuse for a brief pause in conversation to collect your thoughts, the social aspect of one person lighting up and others unthinkingly joining in, offering/receiving a light, cadging or offering a cigarette, sharing a single one, etc) Tea and coffee have long been my companions. During Covid I cut down from two pots of brewed coffee a day to one. In June of this year I unexpectedly had to stop drinking coffee for almost a week and since then have had only one cup, which I accidentally drank out of habit (someone put a fresh one next to me while I was sitting and reading). After 46 years of daily high consumption I just…stopped. And I don’t miss it. I walk past the pot full of coffee in the kitchen and don’t notice it. It makes me wonder how much is simply habit.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lostlogin 4y ago
Regarding your WW2 comment a Reading Spike Milligan and his descriptions of making tea under fire is excellent. But as for coffee just being a habit, no way. I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly, but the headaches on stopping can be terrible.
- boringg 4y ago
  Agreed caffeine withdrawal is real you don't switch off that habit with meaningful consequences on your body. However maybe tea has been covering the caffeine component and they slowly tapered off. Additionally apparently having coffee first thing in the morning, your body gets adjusted to that and your brain gets dependent on coffee to get a quick start.
- gumby 4y ago
  > I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly I was hospitalized, pumped full of drugs and didn't eat anything (except via IV) for a week -- the absence of caffeine thing was kind of a random side effect. Not an approach I would recommend! I was pumped full of antibiotics and took more after being discharged so pretty well wiped out all the bacteria in my gut, which I replaced by eating yoghurt. My diet has changed fairly radically since then (zero interest in sweets, for example) so I wonder how much of my coffee and other food desires were actually my gut symbionts' desires.

talove 4y ago

I drink one cup of pour-over coffee that I make every morning. I like it medium to medium strong. I perceive many physical effects from it. At this point it's my morning ritual. 20 minutes in bed or on the sofa reading or doing a crossword while drinking a coffee. I am also an hobbyist endurance cyclist. I do cycling 'events' that last as long as 12+ hours. And average somewhere between 6-8. While I've tried for years to add caffeine into my nutrition plan for these events. I have only ever had adverse effects. I seem to manage 6-8 ounces of coke. But in spite of my morning ritual, if I consume any coffee or caffeine infused energy bars or gels I will be miserable. Every time I get weak, shaky, feel like I am going to pass out, and feel absolutely miserable. After about 30-60 minutes, I'll have to suddenly pee. Once I pee I slowly feel better and in another 30 minutes back to normal. I've talked to a hundred people about this, nobody seems to have the same effect. But it seems as if my body just rejects the caffeine, pees it out, and carries on.

hammock 4y ago
Coke*, one hopes

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

As a former Ironman distance triathlete anywhere from 11 to 16 hours of completion time, caffiene on race day is a pillar of maintaining both mental and physical sustained exertion. In Ironman France, which effectively has a Tour De France category 1 climb of 12 miles up a mountain, I got sleepy at the top of the climb, to the point I wanted to take a nap. Yes, you can get sleepy during an ironman. I has heard 1-2%, 2-4% was greater than I thought. If that is true, no endurance athlete is competitive at the top levels without doing caffeine, so it's almost guaranteed every olympic athlete does caffeine.

Ancalagon 4y ago

Another anecdote: I do a lot of powerlifting with heavy weight for a natural lifter (600+ lb deadlifts). I've noticed caffeine really helps me get through the days of extreme soreness, especially when I've had to wake up early or just generally had a poor night's sleep so my recovery is sub-optimal. I found this out around age 23 and have been pretty much drinking coffee most for the last 7 years. Granted its only 1 or two cups but it works for me.