7 ms·

It’s hard to be sympathetic when this situation was so obvious and preventable. This is what short term greed and irresponsible governance looks like.

hef19898 4y ago
Us Europeans can still look at Texas, if we want to know how it is properly done, can't we?
- dahart 4y ago
  Maybe not what you meant, but Texas based Enron’s price gouging lead to rolling blackouts in California 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_California_electricity_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_California_electricity...
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Saying the equivalent of "no u" when no one else even brought up the USA is weird but I guess typically european way to deflect criticism . Not that comparing a regional blackout due to exceptional weather conditions, to a continent wide energy shortage cause by policy that has been going on for more than a year now makes any sense. (Even quebec, which is very used to extreme winters, lost electricity for nearly a month back in 1998. On the other hand, I can't think of anything similar to this train wreck situation europe managed to get itself into, not since the 70s at least. So it is a pretty unique fuck up due to very bad policy, and one that's been happening in slow motion)
  - mijoharas 4y ago
    > but I guess typically european way to deflect criticism It'd be great if you didn't lower yourself to name calling as well. (Note: I don't much like the comment you're responding to, but let's be civil here)
    - mardifoufs 4y ago
      You are right. Sorry about that, I didn't mean it to be insulting.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        That makes two...
- matjet 4y ago
  Texas has the same pattern as Europe; higher percentages of solar and wind, resulting in an overdependence on gas.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And the latter part is wrong: France is mostly nuckear, Germany to a huge extent coal, gas has close to no significance when it comes to electricity in Germany. Norway is hydro, as is Austria. And the share of renewables in Texas was negligible when the frid broke down, that was due to failing gas power plants because of low temperatures.
- zarriak 4y ago
  Texas is the opposite of this situation because they purposely didn’t connect their grid to anyone else. The US equivalent for mismanagement would be the Colorado River. The real problem with this situation is we are at a point at which deploying fixes to these problems take so long that even discussing it feels useless.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  This is more similar to California than Texas. Europe is not facing a shortage of energy but a shortage of generation and transmission capacity in times of peak demand. Luckily, as we know from California, there are plenty of responsible people in the society. When there is a risk of shortage and blackouts, many people will voluntarily lower their power consumption for a while. Also, because this is about peak demand, increasing base load generation is of limited help. There is a shortage of power plants that are cheap enough to keep idle most of the time but can be adjusted quickly. That means hydro and natural gas. Even coal is too expensive. Storage may be the long-term solution, but we are not there yet.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Structurally, the reason Germany has so many coal plants compared to gas is that coal was third cheapest on the marlets, right aftet wind and PV. That priced gas out of the market, simpky because gas was more expensive than coal and CO2 certificates to cheap to compensate.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - slfnflctd 4y ago
    > increasing base load generation is of limited help Of course, but in a system trying to avoid fossil fuel use, it smooths out the rough edges in significant ways: during non-peak times, by preventing blackouts or brownouts when there are medium to long term wind & solar outages (which no realistic storage can cover yet in places without pumped hydro), and during peak times by reducing the amount of additional energy required.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  The intention of your comment appears solely to deflect, however what happened in Texas and what is happening in the EU right now are not even remotely comparable. The cause of the Texas grid failure in February 2021 was a Winter storm and a poor decision to cut power to parts to the parts of the supply chain that powered the natural gas infrastructure. The problem was not the result of not having the energy supplies. This has actually been well-documented.[1][2]. The real irony of your comment however is that you are actually looking to Texas now. The EU is now relying in large part on the US for LNG and much of the LNG is being shipped from the Gulf Coast in Texas. The majority of the US excess natural gas supply is now being shipped to Europe. As of April that was 74%. [3]. I'm guessing it's even more now. [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-blackouts-paperwork/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-b... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/15/texas-power-grid-winter-storm-2021/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/15/texas-power-grid-win... [3] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52659 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52659
lawn 4y ago
The vast majority of the affected aren't the ones responsible for this mess, why is it hard to be sympathetic for those people?
- tgv 4y ago
  TBH, the majority is responsible for electing right-wing governments or coalitions that have put their head where their wallet is: pumping up profits of their friends and well-doers, lowering taxes, and privatizing and further ignoring infrastructure and governmental duties (and ignoring climate change, long-term changes in society, etc.). It hurts me to say that the many of the former social-democratic, and quite a few of the green, parties simply participated. So the majority might be partially responsible. If you disagree hard, we'll be heading into "politeia" discussions, king-philosophers and what not.
  - tmikaeld 4y ago
    > It hurts me to say that the many of the former social-democratic, and quite a few of the green, parties simply participated. In Sweden, the green and socialists have been running the show for the past 8 years and during this period shut down 4 nuclear reactors that had at least 20+ years left of steam.
  - ryan93 4y ago
    Every left wing government was fine with cheap russian gas for decades.
- koheripbal 4y ago
  The wave of mass hysteria in Germany, after the Japan incident, to kill nuclear (which I personally suspect was driven by Russian influence operations) came with broad public support. ...so no, I continue to have little sympathy to any issues Germany will have this winter.
  - hrpnk 4y ago
    Regarding influence - there is a fairly recent report (Sep, 20th) from German journalists on the Russian lobby: https://correctiv-org.translate.goog/aktuelles/russland-ukraine-2/2022/09/20/gas-gazprom-lobby-deutschland/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://correctiv-org.translate.goog/aktuelles/russland-ukra...
lostlogin 4y ago
A huge part of this was Putin. How would you prevent Putin?
- baybal2 4y ago
- Ekaros 4y ago
  By electing people who don't make brainless decisions when he does something.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Not being hugely dependent on him would've been a good start. The war in ukraine didn't start in 2022. It started 8 years ago, which would've been plenty of time to move away from russian energy for any competent leadership/government.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  By building nuclear power plants and electrifying industry over the last 15 years since the Litvinenko poisoning, etc. But joining the war this year was crazy given the current situation, Europe is doomed.
  - marvin 4y ago
    Look on the bright side. At least Europe has made it clear that they won't bow down to force. It should ideally have made the obvious policy choices eight years ago at the latest. But doing the short-term irrational thing and joining the economic (and in weapons support, kinetic) war against Russia is exactly what the fucked-up initial conditions require. When you've worked yourself into that kind of lose-lose situation, making the rational choice has a long-term game theoretic downside. The next Putin that manages to maneuver a Western country into a bind can't count on them rolling onto their backs and crying for mercy, even if that seemed like the rational choice. We've seen it demonstrated, also disproving that Westerners are lazy, fat, spoiled and unable to handle significant pain for a greater cause. This is certainly a lesson for the West, but it's also a lesson for the autocrats.

hef19898 4y ago

Us Europeans can still look at Texas, if we want to know how it is properly done, can't we?

dahart 4y ago
Maybe not what you meant, but Texas based Enron’s price gouging lead to rolling blackouts in California 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_California_electricity_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_California_electricity...
mardifoufs 4y ago
Saying the equivalent of "no u" when no one else even brought up the USA is weird but I guess typically european way to deflect criticism . Not that comparing a regional blackout due to exceptional weather conditions, to a continent wide energy shortage cause by policy that has been going on for more than a year now makes any sense. (Even quebec, which is very used to extreme winters, lost electricity for nearly a month back in 1998. On the other hand, I can't think of anything similar to this train wreck situation europe managed to get itself into, not since the 70s at least. So it is a pretty unique fuck up due to very bad policy, and one that's been happening in slow motion)
- mijoharas 4y ago
  > but I guess typically european way to deflect criticism It'd be great if you didn't lower yourself to name calling as well. (Note: I don't much like the comment you're responding to, but let's be civil here)
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    You are right. Sorry about that, I didn't mean it to be insulting.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      That makes two...
matjet 4y ago
Texas has the same pattern as Europe; higher percentages of solar and wind, resulting in an overdependence on gas.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And the latter part is wrong: France is mostly nuckear, Germany to a huge extent coal, gas has close to no significance when it comes to electricity in Germany. Norway is hydro, as is Austria. And the share of renewables in Texas was negligible when the frid broke down, that was due to failing gas power plants because of low temperatures.
zarriak 4y ago
Texas is the opposite of this situation because they purposely didn’t connect their grid to anyone else. The US equivalent for mismanagement would be the Colorado River. The real problem with this situation is we are at a point at which deploying fixes to these problems take so long that even discussing it feels useless.
jltsiren 4y ago
This is more similar to California than Texas. Europe is not facing a shortage of energy but a shortage of generation and transmission capacity in times of peak demand. Luckily, as we know from California, there are plenty of responsible people in the society. When there is a risk of shortage and blackouts, many people will voluntarily lower their power consumption for a while. Also, because this is about peak demand, increasing base load generation is of limited help. There is a shortage of power plants that are cheap enough to keep idle most of the time but can be adjusted quickly. That means hydro and natural gas. Even coal is too expensive. Storage may be the long-term solution, but we are not there yet.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Structurally, the reason Germany has so many coal plants compared to gas is that coal was third cheapest on the marlets, right aftet wind and PV. That priced gas out of the market, simpky because gas was more expensive than coal and CO2 certificates to cheap to compensate.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- slfnflctd 4y ago
  > increasing base load generation is of limited help Of course, but in a system trying to avoid fossil fuel use, it smooths out the rough edges in significant ways: during non-peak times, by preventing blackouts or brownouts when there are medium to long term wind & solar outages (which no realistic storage can cover yet in places without pumped hydro), and during peak times by reducing the amount of additional energy required.
bogomipz 4y ago
The intention of your comment appears solely to deflect, however what happened in Texas and what is happening in the EU right now are not even remotely comparable. The cause of the Texas grid failure in February 2021 was a Winter storm and a poor decision to cut power to parts to the parts of the supply chain that powered the natural gas infrastructure. The problem was not the result of not having the energy supplies. This has actually been well-documented.[1][2]. The real irony of your comment however is that you are actually looking to Texas now. The EU is now relying in large part on the US for LNG and much of the LNG is being shipped from the Gulf Coast in Texas. The majority of the US excess natural gas supply is now being shipped to Europe. As of April that was 74%. [3]. I'm guessing it's even more now. [1] https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-blackouts-paperwork/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-b... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/15/texas-power-grid-winter-storm-2021/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/15/texas-power-grid-win... [3] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52659 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52659

lawn 4y ago

The vast majority of the affected aren't the ones responsible for this mess, why is it hard to be sympathetic for those people?

tgv 4y ago
TBH, the majority is responsible for electing right-wing governments or coalitions that have put their head where their wallet is: pumping up profits of their friends and well-doers, lowering taxes, and privatizing and further ignoring infrastructure and governmental duties (and ignoring climate change, long-term changes in society, etc.). It hurts me to say that the many of the former social-democratic, and quite a few of the green, parties simply participated. So the majority might be partially responsible. If you disagree hard, we'll be heading into "politeia" discussions, king-philosophers and what not.
- tmikaeld 4y ago
  > It hurts me to say that the many of the former social-democratic, and quite a few of the green, parties simply participated. In Sweden, the green and socialists have been running the show for the past 8 years and during this period shut down 4 nuclear reactors that had at least 20+ years left of steam.
- ryan93 4y ago
  Every left wing government was fine with cheap russian gas for decades.
koheripbal 4y ago
The wave of mass hysteria in Germany, after the Japan incident, to kill nuclear (which I personally suspect was driven by Russian influence operations) came with broad public support. ...so no, I continue to have little sympathy to any issues Germany will have this winter.
- hrpnk 4y ago
  Regarding influence - there is a fairly recent report (Sep, 20th) from German journalists on the Russian lobby: https://correctiv-org.translate.goog/aktuelles/russland-ukraine-2/2022/09/20/gas-gazprom-lobby-deutschland/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://correctiv-org.translate.goog/aktuelles/russland-ukra...

lostlogin 4y ago

A huge part of this was Putin. How would you prevent Putin?

baybal2 4y ago
Ekaros 4y ago
By electing people who don't make brainless decisions when he does something.
mardifoufs 4y ago
Not being hugely dependent on him would've been a good start. The war in ukraine didn't start in 2022. It started 8 years ago, which would've been plenty of time to move away from russian energy for any competent leadership/government.
nivenkos 4y ago
By building nuclear power plants and electrifying industry over the last 15 years since the Litvinenko poisoning, etc. But joining the war this year was crazy given the current situation, Europe is doomed.
- marvin 4y ago
  Look on the bright side. At least Europe has made it clear that they won't bow down to force. It should ideally have made the obvious policy choices eight years ago at the latest. But doing the short-term irrational thing and joining the economic (and in weapons support, kinetic) war against Russia is exactly what the fucked-up initial conditions require. When you've worked yourself into that kind of lose-lose situation, making the rational choice has a long-term game theoretic downside. The next Putin that manages to maneuver a Western country into a bind can't count on them rolling onto their backs and crying for mercy, even if that seemed like the rational choice. We've seen it demonstrated, also disproving that Westerners are lazy, fat, spoiled and unable to handle significant pain for a greater cause. This is certainly a lesson for the West, but it's also a lesson for the autocrats.