6 ms·
Music artist: "Why I prefer piracy to Spotify"
- kennywinker 15y agoThose numbers are shocking. $0.00029 per streamed song. I just back-of-the-enveloped my iTunes library, and with 8649 plays, it's worth $2.51 on Spotify. That's disgusting, considering the value I've gotten from it.
- res0nat0r 15y agoI thought that these small numbers everyone is quoting from Spotify are not so accurate. I thought there is more data related to artist compensation which isn't public knowledge, so this shouldn't be taken at face value?
- JshWright 15y agoDerek seems to imply that major labels get paid more, but it seems this particular small number is accurate for this particular independent artist.
- earl 15y agoOther known numbers, mostly sourced from wikipedia [1] "There are indie labels that, as opposed to the majors and Merlin members, receive no advance, receive no minimum per stream and only get a 50% share of ad revenue on a pro-rata basis (which so far has amounted to next to nothing)." Spotify also bought off the labels by giving them a bunch of shares (18%?) Better yet, even if an artist is with a major label, apparently the revenues labels might realize from share sales are non attributable to artists and hence stay purely with the labels. This seems like utter bullshit but there you have it. [2] A swedish band Magnus Uggla -- apparently well established -- said "after six months on the site he'd earned 'what a mediocre busker could earn in a day'" [2] A Norwegian record label called Racing Junior earned "NOK 19 ($3.00 USD) after their artists had been streamed over 55,100 times" [1] (english) [3] (swedish) British musician Jons Hopkins earned 8 pounds ($12.48 at current rates) for 90k plays, or $0.00013 per play [4,5]. Even if a normal purchaser played a song 250 times, (9e4/250 * 0.7) = $252, or 20 times more money. All in all, pretty appalling. I'm a Spotify subscriber but I'm going to have to rethink it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotify#Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotify#Criticism [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2009/aug/17/major-labels-spotify http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2009/aug/17/major-... [3] http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/11/kultur/musikk/spotify/musikkbransjen/emi/7607953/ http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/08/11/kultur/musikk/spotify/mus... [4] https://twitter.com/#!/Jon_Hopkins_/status/137147753829646336 https://twitter.com/#!/Jon_Hopkins_/status/13714775382964633... [5] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3293641 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3293641
- klbarry 15y agoMy friend and I with a guitar made $200 every 6 hours busking in nyc, and we're amateurs. Online pennies for offline dollars...
- mturmon 15y agoHere's a link from the OP saying Spotify royalties really are as bad as he's saying: http://matthewebel.com/2011/07/20/spotify-let-the-money-pour-in/ http://matthewebel.com/2011/07/20/spotify-let-the-money-pour...
- shibboleth 15y agoHm, Matthew Ebel is being paid around $.0015 per stream while Derek Webb is getting $0.00029 per stream. I wonder why there is such a large difference? Maybe Matthew's main streamers are from Spotify paid accounts?
- paulrademacher 15y ago"Derek, this is your manager. Let's start with the good news: your royalty check this month has a LOT of zeros..."
- theallan 15y agoI'd completely agree. However, imagine the next news item is that Spotify increases their prices 5 fold, to pay out more to the artists. The comments would be full of "there is no way it should cost that much" and "I'm not paying that"!
- wmf 15y agoThat's the real problem: Spotify seems to be anchoring prices at an unsustainably low level. Netflix streaming is trying to do the same to video, but Hollywood is resisting. (Although some are claiming that Spotify's pricing is similar to the amount that the average person used to spend on CDs, so why are labels getting less from Spotify than they did from CDs/iTunes?)
- JoshTriplett 15y ago> Netflix streaming is trying to do the same to video Think about the prices for a moment. Suppose you pay $7.99 per month for streaming. According to some recent estimates (http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/january-2011-online-video-usage-up-45/ http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/january-20...), the average Netflix customer watches 11 hours of streaming video per month. That means about $0.73 per hour of video watched. Seems relatively reasonable. Even for users who watch several times that many hours, it still seems reasonable.
- Tichy 15y agoYou don't really own songs you buy on iTunes, either. Try reselling them...
- ugh 15y agoYour definition of ownership is outdated. (I’m also not sure what you are responding to.)
- Tichy 15y agoWeird, my comment really seems to be attached to the wrong parent. Sorry about that. If you mean my definition is outdated, you mean that there is no such thing as ownership in the future anymore? Ownership is outdated?
- sleepyhead 15y agoI'm not arguing that what Spotify pays artists is reasonable, but what many fail to understand is that streaming is very different from buying. I don't own the songs I listen to on Spotify thus pricing must be different. And I listen to a lot of music I would normally not buy making it more similar to radio in many ways.
- earl 15y agoI'd buy an argument like that for pandora, where you can't control play order or exactly what you listen to, but come on. Spotify is a total substitution for purchase: listen to pretty much whatever you want in the order you want as many times as you want up to and including 24x7. The $5/mo subscription gives you most even moderately popular music you want for the price of 4-5 cds, with shipping, per year. So obviously spotify shouldn't be forking out $.70 per track per play, but hearing things like artists like Jons Hopkins getting the price of a cd for 90 thousand plays (ie if a song is 5 minutes long listening to it for three hundred and twelve days) is far far too low. [1] I don't know how to set the right rate, but this isn't it... [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3293892 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3293892
- bad_user 15y agoYou NEVER "own" the songs you buy. You only "own" the right of listening to those songs whenever you want. So how is "owning" a CD any different from Spotify? Also, the value of a song diminishes the more you listen to it. Seriously, even if you love a song, put it on repeat for a day and you probably won't listen to it again for a couple of months. So it's not like Spotify customers will one day buy the music, unless they really have very specific needs, like being somewhere with a bad or expensive Internet connection, but if you subscribed to Spotify in the first place then I doubt that.
- tacoe 15y agoIf you don't think it's different, wait for publishers to pull albums from Spotify. This happens all the time. poof gone. Does this happen to your CDs?
- 15y ago
- sammyo 15y agoI heard a recent song writers music playing at the grocery the other day, how much per play do you think the artist gets for that? It would make a more accurate metric than trying to compare CD sales.
- ticks 15y agoOne thing to bear in mind is that you are comparing the price of buying something to a one-off rental. The rental business has always paid poorly, with retailers only purchasing a single copy and reusing it (i.e. they pay once, then rent it until it becomes too damaged). At least with Spotify, they hopefully pay each time.
- thomasgerbe 15y agoRelevant: https://twitter.com/#!/Jon_Hopkins_/status/137147753829646336 https://twitter.com/#!/Jon_Hopkins_/status/13714775382964633...
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago> Music does have monetary value. The market says otherwise. People are willing to pay almost nothing for music, even risking huge penalties, because it does have value (the other types you listed). Just not monetary.
- bluekeybox 15y agoAll types of value can be monetized; the only trick is how. So unless music has no value whatsoever (which would be absurd, since no one would bother making it in that case), it can be monetized.
- jarek 15y agoDoes putting ads on a torrent site count?
- bobwaycott 15y agoThis is absolutely disgusting. Value != money. What a sad bit of reasoning. Monetizing destroys value. The value of music and other arts has nothing to do with how well or poorly it is monetized.
- bluekeybox 15y agoWhether monetization increases or decreases other kinds of value is a topic for a different discussion; the only thing I said was that all types of value can be monetized.
- bobwaycott 15y agoAnd as such, the assertion is still wrong, imo. Not all types of value can be monetized.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- 15y ago
- mehwoot 15y agoHooray, now all the people stealing music can feel good about themselves because one particular artist agrees with them. Ergo, it is ethically ok.
- JshWright 15y agoI take it you didn't read the article? The entire point of the post is that _Spotify_, rather than piracy, is the option that lets users "feel good about themselves". With piracy, at least the user _knows_ they're not compensating the artist.
- wmf 15y agoI think you can take both interpretations. Someone might think "if Spotify is paying artists virtually nothing, I might as well cut out the middle man and just pirate music".
- jiggy2011 15y agoIs this particularly different from other industries? When I buy clothes, how much of it goes to actual factory worker / designer?
- wmf 15y agoSpotify is worse than that; even the labels are getting virtually nothing. But you have a good point; when you buy something at Wal-Mart, the company that makes the product doesn't make any profit either.
- shibboleth 15y agoThese are just my views from what I've experienced during my time in the industry, but the figure being given by Derek Webb is extraordinarily low for a service like Spotify, even for an (assumed?) independent artist. The price he gives for Spotify's artist payment per listen ($0.00029) is even lower than Last.FM's ($0.00070). For additional comparison, Spotify pays labels $0.002 while Last.FM pays $0.005. I'm not exactly sure how/why Last.FM pays better than Spotify, but I would wager to guess that it is a combination of Spotify having larger operating expenses and advertisers willing to pay less per session. Nonetheless, these figures are awfully low and I would like to see more artists coming forward with information like this (even though it probably won't matter). After looking through some notes, I found that Rhapsody is closer to Spotify when it comes to artist payments. Rhapsody pays artists ~$0.0002 but pays labels significantly more at ~$0.03 (!)
- sp332 15y agoI think Spotify gave the labels a large amount of stock when they made the deal. So it's not $.002/play, it's a bunch of stock + $.002/play.
- shawnc 15y agoWish I could forward this over to some of my favourite, although small, bands and have them take notice. But they won't - the label deal is too important.
- omfg 15y agoIs the story the same with other services like Rdio? I only seem to see stuff like this talking about Spotify but the models seem similar.
- blasdel 15y agoArtist royalties have gone from dollars (physical albums), to dimes (digital singles), to fractions of pennies (streaming). Once you can track how much it actually gets used, it becomes readily apparent just how overvalued it's been. See the progression in advertising from print and broadcast to adsense.
- mattmanser 15y agoCorrelation does not imply causation. Also the idea that listening to a song once is worth fractions of a penny is really stupid further making your 'revelation' totally fatuous.
- BasDirks 15y agoTitle is arguably inaccurate; is freely distributing by the artist still piracy?
- rdl 15y agoHe said in the article (admittedly toward the bottom) that he'd prefer people pirating using bittorrent to using spotify because at least it was intellectually honest.
- lloeki 15y agoWell it's accurate in that at some point, the author says piracy is a "worse is better" case because the pirate knows someone is not getting paid, whereas Spotify makes one think that artists get paid properly for their work.
- ordinary 15y agoThis is not about the article, but about the page itself: can someone explain to me why you would load all the content statically, hide everything through CSS, and then show it by Javascript? I mean, I realise that I'm an exception and that most people simply have Javascript enabled all the time, but isn't it simply bad design to take the worst of both the AJAX load-everything-dynamically and the static HTML full-page-reloads-at-every-click worlds?
- sp332 15y agoIt might be an overly-aggressive response to "Flash of uninitialized JS UI" www.kendoui.com/blogs/teamblog/posts/11-10-06/foujui_flash_of_uninitialized_javascript_ui.aspx
- chunkyslink 15y agoI'm one of those people that buys CD's and Vinyl over mp3 or streamed music. This is how it works for me. 1. I download legal podcasts / radio shows and listen for stuff I like. 2.Then I'll maybe go an MP3 site and check I have the right stuff / listen a few times to make sure I'm happy. 3. Once I know I want the music I order the CD or sometimes if I feel like splashing out, and its available, I'll order the vinyl. The joy I get from music and the importance it has to my happiness and productivity means I'm getting a good deal. I have no idea if the artist gets a better deal because of it, but I hope so. The real reason I do this. MP3 sound quality is not the same and Spotify just sounds flat to me. (excluding your compressed to all fuck pop songs) edit: Also I can honestly say, I do not have one pirated piece of music on my machine. That makes me feel good :)
- coliveira 15y agoI think more and more people are starting to do this, but there it takes some time for people to adjust their consumption habits. Right now people are still thinking about mp3 only, but this will shift as we have more buying options.
- hessenwolf 15y agoMy girlfriend's Father was like that, and then he died suddenly one day. They were moving to Israel post soviet breakup, and needed money, and they literally could not give away the thousands and thousands of rubles of music that nobody was interested in, and had to leave it in the bin.
- chunkyslink 15y agoThats a sad story :(
- comex 15y agoJust curious: Have you considered iTunes or other high-quality digital music sources? I've heard that most people can't distinguish 256kbps AAC from CD quality.
- 15y ago
- BerislavLopac 15y agoHm, is there a Web platform for musicians to give away their music away in return for the fans' social info? With an added feature of discovering new music and artists? If not, maybe someone could start it up. This field is definitely ripe for disruption.
- lt 15y agoNoiseTrade, referenced in the original post, seems to be exactly that: http://www.noisetrade.com/info/about http://www.noisetrade.com/info/about
- mashmac2 15y agoDerek Webb (article author) has been pushing alternative distribution for music for a long time... well before it was popular. Take a look at his most recent album's store: http://derekwebb.com/store/feedback http://derekwebb.com/store/feedback Different options for different levels of fan, fairly common these days, but Derek has been doing this a long time. I discovered him after he gave away his 2005 album, Mockingbird (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockingbird_(album) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockingbird_(album))
- jamesgeck0 15y agoI first saw him at a concert at my university in 2006. He did a Q&A session afterward, during which time he said he was OK with the audience copying his music if they couldn't afford it. His rationale was that he first learned about a lot of his favorite bands via illegal mix tapes, but later bought their work. He views it as marketing, as far as I can tell.
- VonLipwig 15y agoSomething is going to have to give. Either artists quit bemoaning Spotify OR they withdraw their music. Spotify has created a business model that works for them. If it isn't working for individual labels or artists they can withdraw their music and provoke a change in Spotify's business model. Spotify's value exists because of the huge range of music it supports. If you take that away Spotify will be forced to react. Perhaps the simplest thing Spotify could do is charge more for power users. I've listened to 46,000 tracks on Spotify. Charging people like me more would mean they could up the price paid to artists.
- haraball 15y agoI lose a bit of interest in artists who complain about not making money on people listening to their music. It then seems that they make music to make money, instead of making money because they make music.
- Jgrubb 15y agoIf programming suddenly became worth $0.00029 per line of code written, would you still do it for a living?
- powrtoch 15y agoDid you actually read the article? Making music takes a lot of time, effort, and money. Promoting it (as opposed to just playing for you and whoever you live with) takes more of all three. The author specifically says he isn't talking about getting rich, only about making enough to continue doing it ("blue collar musician"). In fact he created and uses a service that gives away his music for free, in exchange for some info about the customer downloading it. "Complaining about not making money" really isn't a fair summary.
- haraball 15y agoMaybe I'm looking at making music in the same fashion as open source programming. It also takes a lot of time, effort and some times money, and it does not give you any income directly. People may fork your code and you don't get any money from it. But it may also land you some programming gigs that can pay much more because of your effort. Making a living out of making music is like making a living out of open source programming. If it does not pay enough, you have to either put more effort into it and make some sacrifices, or you have to play by some other mans notes/specs.
- Jgrubb 15y ago"Making a living out of making music is like making a living out of open source programming. If it does not pay enough, you have to either put more effort into it and make some sacrifices, or you have to play by some other mans notes/specs." As a professional musician of the last 14 years, and a professional web developer of the last 2 years, I can tell you that this is not a good analogy. There are many good analogies to be drawn between the music scene and the OSS scene, but the simple fact is that there is a fraction of a fraction of the money slushing around music that there is in software. There is a fraction of a fraction of the demand for talent in music as there is in software. It'd be like saying "I'm not making enough money as a Latin scholar, so I need to study harder." It's (for all intents) a dead industry, and no amount of individual effort is going to change that. The fundamental paradigm of the music business - fans on one side, artists on the other, labels/gatekeepers in between - has to be changed. Neither Spotify nor iTunes nor any other offering that I know of out there do anything to advance that goal.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- 555imon 15y agoMusicians and labels need to find new ways to monetize instead of distributing copies of master recordings. If artists have records that are widely listed to they can play well payed gigs or get endorsment deals. Seems like the average consumers thinks, that listening to music must be free.
- bgarbiak 15y agoIt’s true that iTunes is a place for people to purchase music, but it offers all the same benefits of Spotify in terms of discovery. Last time I've checked to discover music on iTunes you had to purchase it.
- arethuza 15y agoYou do get to preview songs on iTunes - can't remember how long it is, but it's certainly long enough for me. It appears that previews can now be up to 90 seconds: http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/02/itunes-previews/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/02/itunes-previews/
- bgarbiak 15y agoFor me: if it's not entirety - it doesn't count. Lala figured it out and I had hoped Apple will follow this path after they bought them. Sadly, they didn't.
- technoslut 15y agoIt's not a question of what Apple figured out but what the labels would allow. Frankly, the combination of Genius suggestions and 90 second previews should be enough for most.
- will_critchlow 15y agoI'm intrigued: what massive negotiating power does spotify have to force labels / artists onto their platform? Is there a market failure here? What keeps the pricing unfair? Why not just pull your music from spotify if you don't want it "sold" there? (Written as a spotify premium subscriber who loves the service, but assumed that the music was legitimately obtained through a negotiation with the labels and / or artists).
- crockstar 15y agoMy understanding is that the platform has been pitched primarily as a "proof of concept" type thing to artists and labels with assurances that if enough people subscribe/stream the service and your music you can get paid out. My guess is that the forecasts and hopes aren't stacking up in payouts to the labels/artists quite how they hoped and the result is frustrating these individuals. I'm sure there's a lot more at play here but this is what I've understood from the research I've done.
- Jgrubb 15y agoIt's not about that. It's about "Oooo, shiny new music toy that's included for free with Facebook. Awesome! Now I don't have to buy music ever again!" This inevitably erodes purchases from any other online outlet, which leads to less money flowing to artists. This is made worse by the fact that Spotify's royalty rate is absolutely abysmal. This is well known, and leads to less money flowing to artists. Spotify is such a good thing for the consumer of music. I say that as a consumer of music who was a Premium Spotify subscriber until last week. But as an artist, it's just another mechanism for record labels to whittle down the money they owe you for your working for them. That's why I cancelled my subscription last week. This is the key bit to me - "...I actually prefer illegal downloading over Spotify because when you get music illegally it’s at least implicit in the transaction that what you’re doing is potentially harmful to the artist. But with Spotify, your conscience is clear because you’re either enduring ads or paying to use the service and access the music."
- Jgrubb 15y agoIt seems to me that there is a major market opportunity in a co-operatively owned version of this sort of service, one that placed getting $ to the artist as it's highest goal. A more or less P2P exchange that let consumers stream/discover to their heart's content, but after a certain number of plays prodded them to buy. It'd be open only to artists without label/licensing encumbrances, and would therefore be able to funnel most of the money back to the artist themselves. It seems really obvious if not simple, but the chief goal isn't to make piles of money for whomever builds it. That's the only reason I can see that it doesn't already exist. Semi-side note - It irks the shit out of me that even something as cool as Spotify is still just a means of propping up the same old major label system.
- gizzlon 15y agoA redable version: http://www.readability.com/articles/9lzok3re http://www.readability.com/articles/9lzok3re
- Gustomaximus 15y agoComparing Spotify to a one-off fee on itunes / album sales is not a fair gauge. For example; if I like a song I might listen to it 1000 times over my lifetime (...does that sound right...). If I used Spotify this would be a life value of $0.29 to the artist. This is very low but is a fairer comparison amount to revenue the artist receives from an itunes sale. Also it is worth understanding the label will be paid $1.60 for these 1000 spotify song plays and the artist gets from this $0.29. So it's not the steaming services doing all the screwing here. If you compare this to a itunes sale where the label gets $0.64 per song sale you would need 400 plays over someones lifetime to get this revenue on Spotify or 160 plays on Last.fm. This to me is is a fairer simple comparison without bringing in factors like future value of money or if spotify reduces piracy....etc
- Darningn 15y agoHey musicians: Stop trying to make money and focus on creating great music. If you're focused on the business angle, you're doing it wrong. In fact, it's none of your concern. Success will come if you create great music.
- bootload 15y ago"... The whole business used to be focused on the head of the sales curve, the handful of artists who were selling records in the millions of copies. ..." Selling records, LP's (33rpm) only really took off after FM radio started playing up to 20 minutes segments of ad-free music, uninterrupted. Prior to FM, the single (45's) was king. "President Kennedy got shot. It wasn't only the president that got shot, 50's rock-n-roll died... then they started playing mourning music... then emerging out of the mourning music was FM radio... because during those days it was singles, you were selling singles. Nobody cared about LP's." Link Wray [0],[1] A combination of technology & societal disruption allowed records to sell. [0] Link Wray, interview "Link Wray video interview-pt 3" starting at 4.00min. Exert from "Rumble Man" cf [1]. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHdDE0ks3E&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHdDE0ks3E&feature=relat... [1] Link Wray, "Rumble Man" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1650853964354373174 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1650853964354373174