6 ms·

In the Super Smash Bros. Melee competitive scene we still use CRTs for in-person tournaments because of the input lag on LCDs. Most original hardware available

by greenn 4y ago

In the Super Smash Bros. Melee competitive scene we still use CRTs for in-person tournaments because of the input lag on LCDs. Most original hardware available to play the game doesn't have a digital display output unless you have an early model GameCube and purchase a ~$100 HDMI adapter. Even if you get the hardware setup for modern digital output, most LCD monitors still have poor response times without spending the extra money for a "gaming" monitor. There has been a lot of work by modders to reduce the input lag introduced by the game engine itself to offset the lag introduced by LCD monitors, but I hope someday LCDs can catch up in this last metric.

chizhik-pyzhik 4y ago
> work by modders to reduce the input lag introduced by the game engine itself Can you link something about this? are people rewriting the core engine of melee?
- CarVac 4y ago
  There's a phenomenon known as Polling Drift where the 2x-per-frame input polling at 120 Hz is mismatched with the NTSC framerate that's 0.1% slower, leading to a variable 0-0.5 frame input lag. This can be patched out. Additionally, they found that there is an extra frame of buffer hanging around that wasn't necessary so that can be removed. There might be something else too?
  - robocat 4y ago
    Another HN user mentioned a skipped frame every 20 seconds on a Dell monitor: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32582085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32582085
  - pezezin 4y ago
    That sounds weird to me. Old game consoles with analog video output didn't generate perfect NTSC or PAL timings (for example, the Megadrive would actually run at 59.92274 Hz in NTSC, and 49.701459 Hz in PAL), but it didn't matter as the CRT TVs had some wiggle room and would synchronize to the video signal. There was no such thing as input and output running at different rates and desynchronizing.
    - CarVac 4y ago
      The problem isn't that the framerate isn't exactly the right frequency, it's that the controller polling frequency is not a whole multiple of the framerate. The game uses the last poll, but the last poll could be up to half a frame old.
- FumblingBear 4y ago
  A few projects that are pretty widely used in the Melee scene are 20XXTE [0] and Slippi [1]. As far as I know, neither rewrite the core engine of melee, but there are some key modifications like UCF (Universal Controller Fix) in 20XXTE that modifies the way the game interprets analog stick movement to help standardize the effectiveness of gamecube controllers. Without that fix, it's very hit or miss on whether or not certain movement tech would work consistently on a controller due to joystick drift / deadzones. [0] - https://github.com/dansalvato/20XXTE https://github.com/dansalvato/20XXTE [1] - https://github.com/project-slippi/project-slippi https://github.com/project-slippi/project-slippi
system2 4y ago
I can't think of anything else than some arcade games requiring the lowest possible latency. People are okay with 50 ping games so 2 ms really doesn't matter to most players.
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  Tech skill by good players in smash is pretty incredible. Online is a noticably different game than in person from the minimal online lag.
- caseyavila 4y ago
  The traditional way to play melee is local multiplayer only, so players most players are used to the incredibly fast response of a CRT. This and the muscle memory required to play at a high level makes LCD monitors (and especially TV's) noticeable.
- throwaway09223 4y ago
  50ms network latency is not the same thing as 50ms controller to display latency. If your network latency is 50ms, you still have extremely low, almost zero latency for most operations like using the mouse to change the look direction. 50ms display latency would make a modern FPS utterly unplayable. Games like SSB are extremely latency dependent.
  - system2 4y ago
    My point is, it is not worth to change the whole lcd technology just for games like ssb. Which is probably 1ms latency for lcd is enough.
    - togs 4y ago
      > it is not worth to change the whole lcd technology just for games Nobody suggested this. {Parent} was merely pointing out one advantage of CRT tech over LCD tech in a specific use case.
    - throwaway09223 4y ago

by greenn 4y ago

chizhik-pyzhik 4y ago

> work by modders to reduce the input lag introduced by the game engine itself Can you link something about this? are people rewriting the core engine of melee?

CarVac 4y ago
There's a phenomenon known as Polling Drift where the 2x-per-frame input polling at 120 Hz is mismatched with the NTSC framerate that's 0.1% slower, leading to a variable 0-0.5 frame input lag. This can be patched out. Additionally, they found that there is an extra frame of buffer hanging around that wasn't necessary so that can be removed. There might be something else too?
- robocat 4y ago
  Another HN user mentioned a skipped frame every 20 seconds on a Dell monitor: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32582085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32582085
- pezezin 4y ago
  That sounds weird to me. Old game consoles with analog video output didn't generate perfect NTSC or PAL timings (for example, the Megadrive would actually run at 59.92274 Hz in NTSC, and 49.701459 Hz in PAL), but it didn't matter as the CRT TVs had some wiggle room and would synchronize to the video signal. There was no such thing as input and output running at different rates and desynchronizing.
  - CarVac 4y ago
    The problem isn't that the framerate isn't exactly the right frequency, it's that the controller polling frequency is not a whole multiple of the framerate. The game uses the last poll, but the last poll could be up to half a frame old.
FumblingBear 4y ago
A few projects that are pretty widely used in the Melee scene are 20XXTE [0] and Slippi [1]. As far as I know, neither rewrite the core engine of melee, but there are some key modifications like UCF (Universal Controller Fix) in 20XXTE that modifies the way the game interprets analog stick movement to help standardize the effectiveness of gamecube controllers. Without that fix, it's very hit or miss on whether or not certain movement tech would work consistently on a controller due to joystick drift / deadzones. [0] - https://github.com/dansalvato/20XXTE https://github.com/dansalvato/20XXTE [1] - https://github.com/project-slippi/project-slippi https://github.com/project-slippi/project-slippi

system2 4y ago

I can't think of anything else than some arcade games requiring the lowest possible latency. People are okay with 50 ping games so 2 ms really doesn't matter to most players.

Blackthorn 4y ago
Tech skill by good players in smash is pretty incredible. Online is a noticably different game than in person from the minimal online lag.
caseyavila 4y ago
The traditional way to play melee is local multiplayer only, so players most players are used to the incredibly fast response of a CRT. This and the muscle memory required to play at a high level makes LCD monitors (and especially TV's) noticeable.
throwaway09223 4y ago
50ms network latency is not the same thing as 50ms controller to display latency. If your network latency is 50ms, you still have extremely low, almost zero latency for most operations like using the mouse to change the look direction. 50ms display latency would make a modern FPS utterly unplayable. Games like SSB are extremely latency dependent.
- system2 4y ago
  My point is, it is not worth to change the whole lcd technology just for games like ssb. Which is probably 1ms latency for lcd is enough.
  - togs 4y ago
    > it is not worth to change the whole lcd technology just for games Nobody suggested this. {Parent} was merely pointing out one advantage of CRT tech over LCD tech in a specific use case.
  - throwaway09223 4y ago