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« You will like any subject once you get to know enough about it. » this is a really important observation — good attitude will do wonders to your motivation f

« You will like any subject once you get to know enough about it. » this is a really important observation — good attitude will do wonders to your motivation for research.

t_mann 4y ago
> « You will like any subject once you get to know enough about it. » this is a really important observation And unfortunately false, as I've witnessed on multiple occasions. Don't underestimate mental health problems in academia, telling people that everything will fall into place if they just keep pushing can lead to bad outcomes.
- admissionsguy 4y ago
  > Don't underestimate mental health problems in academia Having dropped out of my PhD due to - mostly - mental health reasons, I don't fully understand the preoccupation with the mental health situation in academia. Not that it is not bad, but is it worse than in most other occupations? Or is it just that academia is mostly populated by people of at minimum middle class upbringing who are not supposed to experience hardship of any kind?
  - t_mann 4y ago
    I wasn't actually saying anything about outside academia. Makes me wonder, is there a name for that sort of reasoning where one person asserts 'A is associated with B', and the response tries to turn it into an argument about !A? I guess it's not a strawman, but I'm sure the philosophers have come up with a name for it.
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
    The poor do not have a monopoly on suffering. The middle class constitutes a large/majority portion of a lot of western countries, it's odd to believe they are living perfect lives free of pain and hardship. Academia is the worst environment I've ever worked in, worse than any industry job I've ever had whether blue collar or white collar.
  - atq2119 4y ago
    I suspect it is in part the combination of academia being a somewhat "normatively standard" path for people to take but, unlike most other such paths, inherently requires a lot of self-discipline and self-motivation. The result is that mental health issues may cause worse extreme outcomes, for the sort of person who can go into a PhD. The "standard" alternative path for somebody like that is some office job where you can just sort of muddle through: you may be deeply unhappy, but the money still comes in and it's easier to find satisfaction in other aspects of your life. There are other paths where self-discipline and self-motivation are important, like being an independent consultant, but those are generally not considered "normatively standard" paths for people to take. (My personal experience with academia was great. I was genuinely interested in the topics, had great colleagues and a great advisor. It probably helped that it was in maths, where there is money for decent pay but no lab work with which PhD students are routinely burdened.)
  - watwut 4y ago
    Mental health issues are not more likely to happen to middle class. Middle class do have them, of course, but lower classes have them more.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    It's statistically overrepresented in PhD students. Something like 40% fit the criteria for severe depression or severe anxiety.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > Something like 40% fit the criteria for severe depression or severe anxiety. Psychological (indeed, medical) criteria are not necessarily all they're cracked up to be. https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3303 https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3303
      - sudosysgen 4y ago
        That's still higher than the general population.
        thaumasiotes 4y ago
        That would indicate either a problem in the population under discussion, or a problem with the diagnostic criteria.
  - wbl 4y ago
    Academia has a uniquely personal importance: your work is a reflection of your personal effort and interests for years. It's also very isolated: the only people who did what I did were hundreds of miles away at other institutions.
  - badpun 4y ago
    Doing a PhD is a bit like doing a startup, in the way that you can work on something for years and produce nothing of value. This is way more stressful than regular job where your effort is validated every month with a paycheck. Many people are not built for this level of stress and uncertainty, but they're too young when they join the PhD program to know that about themselves yet.
- imgabe 4y ago
  I haven't done a Phd, but I always think of Paul Graham saying "If you think something's supposed to hurt, you won't notice if you're doing it wrong"
- lemursage 4y ago
  It's not a statement about your general motivation for a PhD -- I don't think you can easily find a subject for which you will find a non-stop motivation 24h/7days for 3-4 years (or so, eqv. period required to get a PhD). If you encounter a dip in interest, which most likely will happen, you need to understand that changing a PhD is not always a best option -- just because it sounds good now, it doesn't mean it will in 2 years time. You supervisor should be there to guide you into interesting areas of research and may play a substantial role in rekindling your motivation. Naturally, mental health issues are another problem -- but I think they have often different origins than "just boredom" with subject. I may be completely wrong though.

« You will like any subject once you get to know enough about it. » this is a really important observation — good attitude will do wonders to your motivation for research.

t_mann 4y ago

> « You will like any subject once you get to know enough about it. » this is a really important observation And unfortunately false, as I've witnessed on multiple occasions. Don't underestimate mental health problems in academia, telling people that everything will fall into place if they just keep pushing can lead to bad outcomes.

admissionsguy 4y ago
> Don't underestimate mental health problems in academia Having dropped out of my PhD due to - mostly - mental health reasons, I don't fully understand the preoccupation with the mental health situation in academia. Not that it is not bad, but is it worse than in most other occupations? Or is it just that academia is mostly populated by people of at minimum middle class upbringing who are not supposed to experience hardship of any kind?
- t_mann 4y ago
  I wasn't actually saying anything about outside academia. Makes me wonder, is there a name for that sort of reasoning where one person asserts 'A is associated with B', and the response tries to turn it into an argument about !A? I guess it's not a strawman, but I'm sure the philosophers have come up with a name for it.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  The poor do not have a monopoly on suffering. The middle class constitutes a large/majority portion of a lot of western countries, it's odd to believe they are living perfect lives free of pain and hardship. Academia is the worst environment I've ever worked in, worse than any industry job I've ever had whether blue collar or white collar.
- atq2119 4y ago
  I suspect it is in part the combination of academia being a somewhat "normatively standard" path for people to take but, unlike most other such paths, inherently requires a lot of self-discipline and self-motivation. The result is that mental health issues may cause worse extreme outcomes, for the sort of person who can go into a PhD. The "standard" alternative path for somebody like that is some office job where you can just sort of muddle through: you may be deeply unhappy, but the money still comes in and it's easier to find satisfaction in other aspects of your life. There are other paths where self-discipline and self-motivation are important, like being an independent consultant, but those are generally not considered "normatively standard" paths for people to take. (My personal experience with academia was great. I was genuinely interested in the topics, had great colleagues and a great advisor. It probably helped that it was in maths, where there is money for decent pay but no lab work with which PhD students are routinely burdened.)
- watwut 4y ago
  Mental health issues are not more likely to happen to middle class. Middle class do have them, of course, but lower classes have them more.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  It's statistically overrepresented in PhD students. Something like 40% fit the criteria for severe depression or severe anxiety.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Something like 40% fit the criteria for severe depression or severe anxiety. Psychological (indeed, medical) criteria are not necessarily all they're cracked up to be. https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3303 https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3303
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      That's still higher than the general population.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        That would indicate either a problem in the population under discussion, or a problem with the diagnostic criteria.
- wbl 4y ago
  Academia has a uniquely personal importance: your work is a reflection of your personal effort and interests for years. It's also very isolated: the only people who did what I did were hundreds of miles away at other institutions.
- badpun 4y ago
  Doing a PhD is a bit like doing a startup, in the way that you can work on something for years and produce nothing of value. This is way more stressful than regular job where your effort is validated every month with a paycheck. Many people are not built for this level of stress and uncertainty, but they're too young when they join the PhD program to know that about themselves yet.
imgabe 4y ago
I haven't done a Phd, but I always think of Paul Graham saying "If you think something's supposed to hurt, you won't notice if you're doing it wrong"
lemursage 4y ago
It's not a statement about your general motivation for a PhD -- I don't think you can easily find a subject for which you will find a non-stop motivation 24h/7days for 3-4 years (or so, eqv. period required to get a PhD). If you encounter a dip in interest, which most likely will happen, you need to understand that changing a PhD is not always a best option -- just because it sounds good now, it doesn't mean it will in 2 years time. You supervisor should be there to guide you into interesting areas of research and may play a substantial role in rekindling your motivation. Naturally, mental health issues are another problem -- but I think they have often different origins than "just boredom" with subject. I may be completely wrong though.